Crackpot Challenge Part 2 - Evolution

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Many people at the Gregorian conference spoke up, and there was a lot of discussion and debate. No dissidence was suppressed, although there was a Turkish man who crashed the conference, grabbed the microphone, and started haranguing the speaker. He was silenced because he was speaking out of turn and breaking the rules of engagement.
What was debated… the seating arrangements? The rules of engagement? as in warfare?

Aha! but wait…there was a video taken of the sorry affair involving the suppression of this conference ‘crasher’.

At the end of the first session Dr. Oktar Babuna, a Turkish brain surgeon, did not ‘grab the mike’, nor was he “speaking out of turn” but asked for the floor to question why there were insufficient transitional forms from species to species to support the theory of evolution. Ayala and Futuyama were visibly uncomfortable that evol. was being challenged; the film shows the brave Dr. Futuyama fleeing the podium after a minute - rather than answer a challenge, or even listen to one…

An interesting symbolism ; we see an icon of evolution retreating from a single rational question.

One of the conference ‘debaters’ is heard shouting - “turn the microphone off!”. Organizers are seen approaching Dr. Babuna and abruptly taking the microphone away from him.
Dr. Babuna was told later, “only evolutionists can ask questions”. He told Reuters, “If this is a scientific meeting, if you have scientific questions to ask, they should be responded to scientifically. Everybody accepts that. If you force people to shut up and don’t let them ask any questions, then it is not a scientific theory but an ideology.”

Yes, Debates run so much smoother if one side is silenced.

AMDG
 
If the Kolbe “scientists” were excluded, it was because this conference was about the kind of science Kolbe people don’t engage in. This conference was not about geocentric astronomy and Young Earth Creationism, but about the serious theological and philosophical engagement of evolutionary biology.
This is the kind of science the Kolbe Center engages in: the advisory council includes 4 physicists, a medical school dean, a geneticist, a biophysicist, a biochemist, a kinesiologist, 3 philosophers (Ph.Ds all), a sedimentologist, a radiochemist, 2 medical doctors and a geologist.

All were educated, hired and work in and with modern science, to advance modern science. But when modern scientism conflicts not only with Revelation and the Magisterium, but also with logic and the scientific method, the Kolbe members speak out for the truth. And this is truth not only for creation issues, but for all of Revelation, which would include opposition to science support for abortion improvements and embryonic stem cell research.

The Kolbe scientists and philosophers were well suited and prepared to address the serious theological and philosophical issues of evolutionary biology by virtue of their wide range of scientific interests and skills, but questioned how creation can be excluded from theology. Now we will never know why the STOQ conferees chose to ignore Scripture… and us.

AMDG
 
If Kolbe people want to discuss six-day creation physics and Noah’s-flood biology, they should organize a conference about it, and not invite evolutionists!
Guess what… Kolbe Center did organize a conference to discuss the serious philosophical and scientific contradictions of evolutionary biology, such as have been developed on this thread. And evolutionists were invited to attend… and did… without being suppressed! However, none of the evolutionists who attended has been able to offer a persuasive rebuttal to the “scientific critique” of the evolutionary hypothesis offered by the KC speakers. Note: the issues with evol. were scientific contradictions, not creation conflicts.

On February 23, Catholic scientists, philosophers, and historians [note: no theologians] gathered in Rome at the National Research Council for a symposium entitled * The Theory of Evolution: A Critical Analysis *

Guy Berthault presented his experimental laboratory and field research which refute the fundamental principles of Lyellian geology and demonstrate that massive sedimentary rock formations around the world could have formed in a fraction of the time allocated to them by the conventional time scale.

Dr. Jean de Pontcharra demonstrated the unreliability of radiometric dating for long ages; the dating of rocks using radioactive elements requires very basic assumptions whose validity has not been demonstrated. In the particular case of the K/Ar method, the presence of excess Ar and the impossibility of correcting the bias so introduced call into question the entire ‘model ages’ results obtained during the last several decades in palaeontology.

A paper by Dr. Josef Holzschuh, Dr. Jean de Pontcharra and Hugh Miller presented the results of several years of research in the C-14 dating of dinosaur bones. The discovery of collagen in a Tyrannosaurus Rex femur bone was recently reported in the journal Science. When Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered by the Glendive (MT) Dinosaur & Fossil Museum, samples were collected for C-14 testing. From the bone collagen dates of 30,890 ± 380 radiocarbon years before present(RC BP) for the Triceratops and 23,170 ±170 RC BP years for the Hadrosaur were obtained using the Accelerated Mass Spectrometer. Samples were pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained. That the dinosaur bones consistently possess the same radiocarbon ages as other megafauna, such as mastodons, known to have been contemporary with man, flatly contradicts the evolutionary time scale according to which dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago.

Physicist Dr. Thomas Seiler approached the evolutionary hypothesis from a different perspective by evaluating its claims against the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Dr. Seiler demonstrated that while order may manifest in natural objects as a result of physical or chemical properties of those objects, specific complexity, such as the DNA code, has never been known to develop without intelligent direction.

An expert in biology, Dr. Pierre Rabischong then gave a fascinating description of the organization of the human body and concluded that the non-existent natural filiations among species and the high-tech nature of all living systems flatly contradict the evolutionary hypothesis.

As a population geneticist, Dr. Maciej Giertych evaluated the main evidence for the evolutionary hypothesis, namely race formation. He showed that macroevolution requires an increase of genetic variants, and that race formation, which depends on their reduction, is a process in the opposite direction, comparable to extinction. He showed that positive mutations, as a mechanism leading to new functions or organs, are an undemonstrated postulate. He argued that one can demonstrate many neutral and negative mutations, but no positive ones and questioned the claim that the appearance of resistance to man-made chemicals (herbicides, fungicides, antibiotics, etc.) is evidence of positive mutations on the ground that it belongs to the multitude of defense mechanisms (like healing or acquiring immunity) protecting existing life functions of an organism and not creating new ones.

Dr. Josef Seifert, rector of the Academy of Philosophy in Chile, offered critical reflections on evolutionism as a scientific or pseudo-scientific theory and as an atheist ideology.

Dr. Dominique Tassot demonstrated the numerous logical fallacies commonly used to defend the evolutionary hypothesis.

The proceedings of the symposium will be published in English and Italian in the **Year of Darwin **by the National Research Council.

None of the evolutionists who attended has been able to offer a persuasive rebuttal to the scientific critique of the evolutionary hypothesis offered by the speakers.

Pray with us that the truth presented in Rome at the symposium, The Theory of Evolution: A Critical Analysis, will now be brought to the attention of Catholic civil, ecclesiastical, and academic leaders throughout the world, so that the evolutionary hypothesis can be consigned to its rightful place in the dustbin of bankrupt ideas.

AMDG
 
Please, I would appreciate the links to the abstracts and texts of the following papers:
An expert in biology, Dr. Pierre Rabischong then gave a fascinating description of the organization of the human body and concluded that the non-existent natural filiations among species and the high-tech nature of all living systems flatly contradict the evolutionary hypothesis.
 
Hello grannymh,

This article should help:

apologeticspress.org/articles/2070

The previous article I posted a link to shows that the breakpoints are not as imagined. At some point in time, we diverged from our ‘evolutionary cousins’ and both our DNA and their DNA should show where that break occurred. It does not appear to be true. What is more likely, according to the article I linked to here, is that similar organisms containing DNA would have similar instructions to build similar bodies. Even plants share some genetic similarities to humans. This only means that the designer used the same set of instructions in different ways and that other parts of our genetic material control the expression of certain parts of our bodies.

Peace,
Ed
 
Hello grannymh,

This article should help:

apologeticspress.org/articles/2070

The previous article I posted a link to shows that the breakpoints are not as imagined. At some point in time, we diverged from our ‘evolutionary cousins’ and both our DNA and their DNA should show where that break occurred. It does not appear to be true. What is more likely, according to the article I linked to here, is that similar organisms containing DNA would have similar instructions to build similar bodies. Even plants share some genetic similarities to humans. This only means that the designer used the same set of instructions in different ways and that other parts of our genetic material control the expression of certain parts of our bodies.

Peace,
Ed
Thank you and I did read the link.

Two nagging questions keep rolling between my ears.

Granted that there are genetic similarities between chimps and humans. 1. Could there be another molecular biological explanation for the relationship between species?

Apparently, there are different ways of determining similarities and non-similarities in genomes.
2. Wouldn’t so many different opinions/conclusions indicate that the concept of a common ancestor needs to be reexamined?
 
Rossum,
The following is your answer to me on post 25 on the thread: “Robert Sungenis on Transitional fossils.” I’m consolidating information here with the rest of the crackpots.😉
rossum said:
The change from quadrupedal to bipedal walking is more substantial than it may appear. It required remodelling of much of the leg and pelvis. We still need to be careful of our backs, where evolution still has more work to do and our knees are also not completely adapted: “Our knees are adapted to carry half of our weight; the problem is that they expect our elbows to carry the other half.”

Prior to that I suspect that the transition from water to land was the last big change, though that would have been long before we were anything approaching human.

rossum
When I checked " primordial soup", on Wikipedia, there was a maze of opinions regarding the beginning of life. It was your description “water to land” above which makes me wonder what is your description of the point where "some things come together and from that life starts evolving.

While I was looking for your post quoted above, I found your post 740, on thread “Is Intelligent design a plausible theory?” in Philosophy. In it, you mention that “Chemistry can explain why some combinations happen, while others do not. Chemistry limits the possibilities: We see H20, we do not see H30.” in answer to the question: “Can chemistry explain why the specific combination of molecules necessary for abiogenesis occurred out of an immense number of possibilities?”

The following are not “intelligent design” questions. I’m more interested in the odds due to chance combinations.

If there were an immense number of possibilities for ways chemicals could combine, then wouldn’t “chemistry” be unlimited? If H30 were formed by chance, wouldn’t it be eliminated by a type of natural selection in that H30 could not remain combined.

Would it follow that the beginnings of different species could have been formed but died out because of “chemical” difficulties?

With all the possible combinations, could it be possible that different life forms would be related but be completely distinctive in their own right? If that were possible, then could what is considered a common ancestor be actually something different going back closer to abiogenesis?

The Wikipedia article, “Common Descent” referred to a “common ancestral gene pool”. The footnote said:

  1. *]^ The earliest life-like forms probably exchanged genetic material laterally in a manner that is analogous to lateral gene transfer amongst bacteria. For this and other reasons, the most recent common ancestor may have been a genetic pool rather than an organism.

    Does that imply that originally there was a “genetic pool” like primordial soup?
    Which brings me to a final question. If there were one organism as the source of life, what was it and where? Our earth is too big and there are too many varieties of life for only one organism.
 
Also, the Journal of Consciousness Studies (which sponsored the above book) is a very prestigious journal covering physics, biology, neurobiology, philosophical and social aspects of the study of human consciousness. See, for example Haggard and Johnson, Experiences of Voluntary Action, J Consciousness Studies 10, 72 - 84 (2003)

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Is “Experiences of Voluntary Action” part of the book, Trusting the Subject? Google put me to Google Books. As far as I could tell, the article which came up did not give any reference to Journal of Consciousness Studies. This article had an interesting diagram on neural events and conscious events.

Alec, I would like to rephrase my opening position to something like
“Natural science is not necessarily opposed to the possibility of a literal Adam and Eve.”

This might help me get my thoughts in better order. In practice, I would still stick to the main idea that there were two parents of the human race. How would my change affect you? Would it possibly soften the bottleneck problem by bringing in natural science as a whole?

I really do feel like a work in progress.🙂
 
We didn’t come from a sack of cells which turned into a bug which turned into a lizard which turned into a dinosaur which turned into a bird which turned into a monkey which turned into a human. Common sense is hard to find now days.
You haven’t a clue what evolution is about, have you? You’re not entitled to criticize a theory until you can demonstrate that you understand it.
 
This might help me get my thoughts in better order. In practice, I would still stick to the main idea that there were two parents of the human race. How would my change affect you? Would it possibly soften the bottleneck problem by bringing in natural science as a whole?)
Granny, there is another genetic bottleneck you have to account for, after the Noachian “flood.”
 
Granny, there is another genetic bottleneck you have to account for, after the Noachian “flood.”
I personally tend to go for the earth’s magnetic decay, which appears to have a half life of about 1400 years. Supposedly it flips and then regenerates, but since the last supposed “flip” was a hell of a long time ago (and can be explained by volcanic action and waves of cooling), the earth should have been molten due to magnetic energy if the observed decay is extrapolated any further back than about 20,000 years.

The sun’s field flips about every 11 years, but appears to show no sign of regenerating. On the other hand, the sun has so much energy left, the decay rate would be expected to be lower. The earth however does not.

I think a lot of the universe was made, or condensed, in situ. We seem to have for example a rather large and handy dose of the heavier elements in a universe that is 99% hydrogen and helium, wonderful large deposits of coal and oil so industrial man can get a leg up, handy deposits of iron, aluminium, and other useful industrial materials, and conveniently splittable uranium so we can have a nuclear industry. Silicon came ready for doping for the electonics industry, water expands wonderfully so our oceans don’t freeze over, and we’ve been so wonderfully protected by the Van Allen belts and it all happened by chance.

Such a very convenient result from a blindly organised randomly processing universe. Likewise we have a wonderful moon just right for the first step out into space, with the next most inhabitable planet just happening to be Mars.

But not a hint of intelligent design anywhere.

And pigs might fly.
 
But we did come from a sack of cells inside our mother’s uterus. During its development that sack of cells in turn resembled a fish embryo, a lizard embryo and a monkey embryo.

Common knowledge is hard to find now days.

rossum
Are you comparing the ocean/earth to a human uterus?

Where did the cells come from?

You don’t know?

I know you don’t know, and you never will.

How did amino acids join and combine into a living cell?

You don’t know?

I know you don’t know, and you never will.

Common knowledge is really hard to find now days.

But hey look; you, and maybe even some people you may know, might have come from a monkey or some other kind of sub-human species resembling a monkey, but for the record, my family didn’t.

Peace out Mr. Scientific.
 
You say this is true.
It is.
Can you provide evidence it is, along with photographs of the development?
Yes. Google is your friend. There are many sites with many photos of different embryos at different stages of development. One example is at ncseweb.org/index.php?q=img_assist/popup/635 while another, from Ken Miller, is at millerandlevine.com/km/evol/embryos/Haeckel.html
This may interest you: Interstitial telomeric sequences are not located at the exact evolutionary breakpoints in primates.
Thankyou for that. An interesting snippet.

rossum
 
Ohh sorry rossum, your buddhist.

I’ll make sure not to step on any ants.😉
😛
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spankyg http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
We didn’t come from a sack of cells which turned into a bug which turned into a lizard which turned into a dinosaur which turned into a bird which turned into a monkey which turned into a human. Common sense is hard to find now days.
You haven’t a clue what evolution is about, have you? You’re not entitled to criticize a theory until you can demonstrate that you understand it.
Actually, when one reads spankyg’s post as standing on its own merits, the post is accurate. Of course, that comes from my bias that the evolutionary lineage of human beings is on a different route than the current “tree of life” route.

Common sense should tell serious evolutionists that “there is more than one way to skin a cat” as my Irish mother would say–especially when there is the evidence that the so designated “human line of primates” is essentially and substantially different from the chimp cousins.
 
Granny, there is another genetic bottleneck you have to account for, after the Noachian “flood.”
Sorry, I am not interested in any flood except the one which occasionally enters my basement. I refuse to be derailed from my topic.

Maybe when everyone agrees with me about the lineage of humanity, I will look at the bottleneck you are referring to. 😃
 
When I checked " primordial soup", on Wikipedia, there was a maze of opinions regarding the beginning of life. It was your description “water to land” above which makes me wonder what is your description of the point where "some things come together and from that life starts evolving.
When I talked about the “water to land” transition, I was talking about the move of our vertebrate ancestor - a fish with legs, lungs and gills - moving from mostly living in water - to our later ancestor - an amphibian with legs, lungs and gills - living mostly on land. This transition took place a very long time after the origin of life. Google Tiktaalik for an example of the fish and Acanthostega for an example of the amphibian.
While I was looking for your post quoted above, I found your post 740, on thread “Is Intelligent design a plausible theory?” in Philosophy. In it, you mention that “Chemistry can explain why some combinations happen, while others do not. Chemistry limits the possibilities: We see H[sub]2[/sub]0, we do not see H[sub]3[/sub]0.” in answer to the question: “Can chemistry explain why the specific combination of molecules necessary for abiogenesis occurred out of an immense number of possibilities?”
In that quote I was criticising the usual creationist mathematics which takes every conceivable combination as (name removed by moderator)ut, without looking first to see which combinations are chemically allowable.
If there were an immense number of possibilities for ways chemicals could combine, then wouldn’t “chemistry” be unlimited? If H[sub]3[/sub]0 {[noparse]that was “H[sub]3[/sub]0”[/noparse]} were formed by chance, wouldn’t it be eliminated by a type of natural selection in that H[sub]3[/sub]0 could not remain combined.
If H[sub]3[/sub]0 did form by change it would be so very unstable that it would dissociate as soon as it formed. H[sub]2[/sub]0 is much more stable so the extra hydrogen would detach itself and find something else to attach to. Chemicals rearrange themselves in order to find the least energetic state, that is the most stable state. You are talking about “chemical selection” or “thermodymanic selection” rather than natural selection. Natural selection can only operate on imperfect replicators, and H[sub]3[/sub]0 is not an imperfect replicator.
Would it follow that the beginnings of different species could have been formed but died out because of “chemical” difficulties?
It is certainly possible that life originated more than once in different places. All of those early life forms would have been chemically allowed.
With all the possible combinations, could it be possible that different life forms would be related but be completely distinctive in their own right?
Yes. It has been speculated that life on earth originated more than once, but during the “Late Heavy Bombardment” many or all of the earliest starts were killed off by large meteorite impacts. After the LHB life either survived or restarted. It may possibly have taken different forms, but competition between the different forms would probably have eliminated any less efficient forms. Either that, or they picked up more efficient mechanisms by horizontal transfer.
If that were possible, then could what is considered a common ancestor be actually something different going back closer to abiogenesis?
Our common ancestor would have been very much simpler than the simplest existing bacterium. However it would probably have used RNA so it would be recognisable. The evidence on horizontal transfer means that it should be looked at as more of a pool of ancestors, all using RNA and transferring genetic material among themselves.
The Wikipedia article, “Common Descent” referred to a “common ancestral gene pool”. Does that imply that originally there was a “genetic pool” like primordial soup?
As I see it, those early organisms were reasonably closely related, being so new, and were also a bit sloppy as to how they did things - evolution had not had much time to refine processes. Hence it was much easier for them to incorporate bits of each other’s genetic material. Horizontal Gene Transfer can be thought of as if when you shake hands with a blonde person, you come away with copies of the genes for blonde hair. That way genes spread through a population horizontally from organism to organism rather than vertically from parent to child.
Which brings me to a final question. If there were one organism as the source of life, what was it and where? Our earth is too big and there are too many varieties of life for only one organism.
What was it? Very primitive. It very probably used RNA, but might not yet have developed the use of DNA and proteins.

Where? Probably not knowable. There is no guarantee that that specific part of the earth’s surface still exists - it might have been eroded away or subducted and melted. We can be sure that life on earth originated somewhere because we have life on earth now. Modern varieties originated from that original population. That is why Darwin called his book “On the Origin of Species”.

rossum
 
When I talked about the “water to land” transition, I was talking about the move of our vertebrate ancestor - a fish with legs, lungs and gills - moving from mostly living in water - to our later ancestor - an amphibian with legs, lungs and gills - living mostly on land. This transition took place a very long time after the origin of life. Google Tiktaalik for an example of the fish and Acanthostega for an example of the amphibian.

In that quote I was criticising the usual creationist mathematics which takes every conceivable combination as (name removed by moderator)ut, without looking first to see which combinations are chemically allowable.

If H[sub]3[/sub]0 did form by change it would be so very unstable that it would dissociate as soon as it formed. H[sub]2[/sub]0 is much more stable so the extra hydrogen would detach itself and find something else to attach to. Chemicals rearrange themselves in order to find the least energetic state, that is the most stable state. You are talking about “chemical selection” or “thermodymanic selection” rather than natural selection. Natural selection can only operate on imperfect replicators, and H[sub]3[/sub]0 is not an imperfect replicator.

It is certainly possible that life originated more than once in different places. All of those early life forms would have been chemically allowed.

Yes. It has been speculated that life on earth originated more than once, but during the “Late Heavy Bombardment” many or all of the earliest starts were killed off by large meteorite impacts. After the LHB life either survived or restarted. It may possibly have taken different forms, but competition between the different forms would probably have eliminated any less efficient forms. Either that, or they picked up more efficient mechanisms by horizontal transfer.

Our common ancestor would have been very much simpler than the simplest existing bacterium. However it would probably have used RNA so it would be recognisable. The evidence on horizontal transfer means that it should be looked at as more of a pool of ancestors, all using RNA and transferring genetic material among themselves.

As I see it, those early organisms were reasonably closely related, being so new, and were also a bit sloppy as to how they did things - evolution had not had much time to refine processes. Hence it was much easier for them to incorporate bits of each other’s genetic material. Horizontal Gene Transfer can be thought of as if when you shake hands with a blonde person, you come away with copies of the genes for blonde hair. That way genes spread through a population horizontally from organism to organism rather than vertically from parent to child.

What was it? Very primitive. It very probably used RNA, but might not yet have developed the use of DNA and proteins.

Where? Probably not knowable. There is no guarantee that that specific part of the earth’s surface still exists - it might have been eroded away or subducted and melted. We can be sure that life on earth originated somewhere because we have life on earth now. Modern varieties originated from that original population. That is why Darwin called his book “On the Origin of Species”.

rossum
Waking up to a “patient” answer is better than my morning Pepsi.😉
Thank you.
 
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