Crackpot Challenge Part 2 - Evolution

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Actually, when one reads spankyg’s post as standing on its own merits, the post is accurate. Of course, that comes from my bias that the evolutionary lineage of human beings is on a different route than the current “tree of life” route.
Granny, spankyg wrote “We didn’t come from a sack of cells which turned into a bug which turned into a lizard which turned into a dinosaur which turned into a bird which turned into a monkey which turned into a human.”

No evolutionary biologist has ever argued this, so spankyg’s juvenile caricature is incorrect.
 
Sorry, I am not interested in any flood except the one which occasionally enters my basement. I refuse to be derailed from my topic. Maybe when everyone agrees with me about the lineage of humanity, I will look at the bottleneck you are referring to. 😃
If humans all sprang from one pair – Adam and Eve – there would be evidence of that in the human genome, which there is not. Likewise, if all humans sprang from one pair – Noah and his wife – there would be evidence of that in the human genome, which there is not.
 
If humans all sprang from one pair – Adam and Eve – there would be evidence of that in the human genome, which there is not. Likewise, if all humans sprang from one pair – Noah and his wife – there would be evidence of that in the human genome, which there is not.
Have no clue about Noah and his wife so I can’t speak to that. How about the evidence that the current human person has the same qualities that Adam and Eve had? Qualities which do not exist in any other species. Of course when it comes to qualities, I would suppose everyone has their own preferences and guidelines.
 
If humans all sprang from one pair – Adam and Eve – there would be evidence of that in the human genome, which there is not. Likewise, if all humans sprang from one pair – Noah and his wife – there would be evidence of that in the human genome, which there is not.
Just had a crazy thought. The “evidence in the human genome” is based on one evolutionary pattern. In there anything in nature, that would oppose the possibility of more than one evolutionary pattern? I’m not talking about scientists who decided on one pattern. I’m talking about nature itself.
 
Just had a crazy thought. The “evidence in the human genome” is based on one evolutionary pattern. In there anything in nature, that would oppose the possibility of more than one evolutionary pattern? I’m not talking about scientists who decided on one pattern. I’m talking about nature itself.
Granny, what do you mean by “scientists who decided on one pattern”? What pattern is this?
 
Have no clue about Noah and his wife so I can’t speak to that.
Granny, what I mean is that a literal reading of the Noah-and-his-wife story presents the same challenge as the Adam-and-Eve story: in both cases, you have a claim of descent of all humans from one original pair. There is zero evidence in the human genome – as observed and studied by genetic science – that supports the Genesis claim that humans suffered a genetic bottleneck this severely constricted.

If we insist on interpreting the Adam and Eve story literally, is there a reason not to insist on interpreting the Noah story literally? If we choose to interpret these stories literally rather than as theological symbols or metaphors, we throw out genetic science. Many people might be fine with that.

StAnastasia
 
Granny, what do you mean by “scientists who decided on one pattern”? What pattern is this?
To me, the work of Dr. Carl R. Woese, Professor of Microbiology, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign offers exciting possibilities far beyond the one pattern of one tree with branches drawn by early evolutionary scientists. He is one of those unique persons not afraid to ask questions or explore possibilities.
 
Granny, what I mean is that a literal reading of the Noah-and-his-wife story presents the same challenge as the Adam-and-Eve story: in both cases, you have a claim of descent of all humans from one original pair. There is zero evidence in the human genome – as observed and studied by genetic science – that supports the Genesis claim that humans suffered a genetic bottleneck this severely constricted.

If we insist on interpreting the Adam and Eve story literally, is there a reason not to insist on interpreting the Noah story literally? If we choose to interpret these stories literally rather than as theological symbols or metaphors, we throw out genetic science. Many people might be fine with that.

StAnastasia
Again, I must insist on staying with the topic I have chosen. If other people wish to connect Noah and his wife with Adam and Eve, that is their choice. I respectfully decline.

Pardon me, I don’t believe you intended to refer to a “Genesis claim that humans suffered a genetic bottleneck this severely constricted.” I believe that claim comes from current evolutionary (genetics) science aided by mathematics. As for zero evidence in the human genome, all this means is that one needs to look for evidence in other places. It is hard to believe that scientists would fold after examining only one possibility offered by genetic science.

I do understand and appreciation your concern for genetic science. However, please do not worry about it being thrown out. I get updates from the Berkeley website and I can assure you that genetic science is firm.
 
To me, the work of Dr. Carl R. Woese, Professor of Microbiology, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign offers exciting possibilities far beyond the one pattern of one tree with branches drawn by early evolutionary scientists. He is one of those unique persons not afraid to ask questions or explore possibilities.
Woese is hardly unique. Asking questions and exploring possibilities is the nature of science!
 
As for zero evidence in the human genome, all this means is that one needs to look for evidence in other places. It is hard to believe that scientists would fold after examining only one possibility offered by genetic science.
The human genome demonstrates that at no point did the number of hominids fall much below 3,000-10,000 breeding pairs. It never fell to just one surviving pair from which all others descended, as a literal reading of either Genesis story would have us believe.
 
FYI – from Post 407

Dr. Carl R. Woese From Wikipedia

Carl Richard Woese (born 15 July 1928,Syracuse, New York) is an American microbiologist and physicist. Woese is famous for defining the Archaea (a new domain or kingdom of life) in 1977 by phylogenetictaxonomy of 16S ribosomal RNA, a technique pioneered by Woese and which is now standard practice.[1][2][3] He was also the originator of the RNA world hypothesis in 1967, although not by that name. He currently holds the Stanley O. Ikenberry Chair and is professor of microbiology at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

Woese was a MacArthur Fellow in 1984, was made a member of the National Academy of Sciences in 1988, received the Leeuwenhoek Medal (microbiology’s highest honor) in 1992, and was a National Medal of Science recipient in 2000. In 2003, he received the Crafoord Prize from the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences. In 2006, he was made a foreign member of the Royal Society.[4]
Many microbial species such as Pyrococcus woesei, Methanobrevibacterium woesei and Conexibacter woesei are named in his honor.

To understand why I posted:

“To me, the work of Dr. Carl R. Woese, Professor of Microbiology, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign offers exciting possibilities far beyond the one pattern of one tree with branches drawn by early evolutionary scientists. He is one of those unique persons not afraid to ask questions or explore possibilities.”

Read about Dr. Woese goals, etc. – www.mcb.illinois.edu/faculty/profile/1204
 
Original
The Big Bang is another inconsistent theory of modern Big Sci:
The expansion began from a single point, yet the BB has no center!
The universe is expanding into non-existence, yet it has no edge!
Correct - there is no inconsistency in either of these things - if you think there is inconsistency that is because you fail to understand the science. Here is a little thing I wrote earlier:
evolutionpages.com/big_bang_no_myth.htm

There’s no inconsistency in these fallacies because an inconsistent system, as is the Big Bang, can be used to prove anything. This requires an understanding of logic and inconsistent systems, the basis of empirical science.

Here’s a little thing Karl Popper wrote earlier (The Logic of Scientific Discovery):
A theoretical system may be said to be axiomatized if a set of statements, the axioms, has been formulated which satisfies the following fundamental requirements.
[Consistency] the system of axioms must be free from contradiction (whether self-contradiction or mutual contradiction). This is equivalent to the demand that not every arbitrarily chosen statement is deducible from it.
[Al: Since every arbitrarily chosen statement includes contradictory statements, an inconsistent logical system allows ANY statement to be proven true or false. This is the path via agnosticism to nihilism.]
…
[Testability] A second criterion concerns the logical form of the theory. Popper admits only theories capable of being tested by experience. If the form of a theory is such that its basic statements simply don’t correspond to experience, or are otherwise not testable, then that theory does not qualify as empirical scientific. For a theory to be scientific it must be testable.

If we are expanding from the BB origin along with the shell of remnants, there should be a variation in star density in a plane around us, the local tangent plane to the shell surface. There is, the Milky Way, but current cosmo. thinking says no, the galactic axis does not contain the BB origin… There is no center for the expansion we are moving in!

The solar system is moving toward the Virgo cluster in the CMB frame, we are told, so the BB origin should be the Virgin’s antipode: ~ RA 190, Dec -10. King Cosmo again says no - that would be logical. We are expanding in the direction of Virgo, but the direction we started from is unknown!

In all the sorcerer’s smoke and mirrors another fallacy is hidden:
The CMB rest frame is the frame of the BB origin, even though this contradicts relativity - an absolute frame.

The description of the void of non-existence is a philosophical teaser addressed in Metaphysics 101. The lack of reality, nihil, can’t be perceived by the senses; after all, it lacks reality. “From nothing, comes nothing” - Aristotle.
Describe what we would observe (a scientific method requirement) at the leading edge of the expanding BB front of spatial creation, as it expands ‘outward’ into ‘nihil’. …Even darkness was created.

This thread is based on evidence from scholastic realism. Let the nihilists start their own thread and discuss the properties and appearance of the absence of reality - non-existence.
There are no cosmic effects that support rotation of the universe once per day, …
All measurable effects that support rotation of the earth once per day, also support rotation of the universe once per day… Mach’s principle of relative rotation equivalence, never falsified.
Both SR and GR have yet to fail an observational test.
Exactly… an inconsistent theory can prove anything! see Popper above, again.

This inconsistency isn’t really accidental. This is a tactic of flexing variant interpretations, axioms and solutions.

A modern mathematician with a Ph.D. in logic has examined the US culture of modern physics and relativity history:

In America recent public funding of scientific research has this underlying problem of politically motivated ideology. Those who controlled the funding produced more doctorates as more graduate students were awarded research assistantships, etc. The more Ph.D.s, the more influence on academic course curricula and research directions. Just follow the money.

This US money class wanted to restrict what physicists were going to be allowed to investigate by replacing free investigation with the “dogma” of what you were allowed to believe - like a modernist physics religion.

Einstein was caught saying one thing one moment and later saying the opposite. He even said that since the mathematicians (objectively, pseudo-mathematicians) had taken over his theory that he no longer understood it. They grabbed hold of his theory to interpret it in lots of ambiguous ways. If you spot one mistake – well, you alter his theory in a way to correct it. Always a work in progress, but never finished… or logically stable.

Einstein was treated as a “sacred cow”; if you did criticize him you were accused of being an anti-Semite; a pretty good way of stopping further discussion.

There should really be clashes between the defenders of different SR versions, but that usually gets stamped out by those holding the upper hand, claiming they know the “true” SR while accusing others of not understanding SR.

The real culprit of the destruction of theoretical physics is not Einstein. It was a coordinated effort by pseudo-mathematicians who grabbed the chance to gain power.
Beware , brother, of getting enamored of the modernist deception.

AMDG
 
Fine - then let’s see you try to explain the Coriolis and centrifugal forces on a static earth.
Klioner’s analysis has noted :
For consistent relativistic modelling in the field of fundamental astronomy, there are a number of issues, mostly of practical character, that still require both theoretical discussions and practical implementations. One of these ’gray’ areas includes modelling of rotational motion of celestial bodies,
It is clearly a challenge to combine knowledge in theoretical general relativity and in practical observational techniques and modelling of complex astronomical phenomena (e.g. Earth rotation).
Earth rotation is the only astronomical phenomenon which is observed with a high accuracy and which has no consistent relativistic model.
No one can even show that Newtonian theory can explain these two inertial forces in the Earth’s non-inertial reference frame, using classical variational methods.
Original: The dating methods are not yielding results consistent with findings made, and, in particular, as they relate to claims of certain animals living millions of years ago. Modern tools and other objects, clearly man made, have been found in rock and coal.
Can you offer some specific examples? These might clear some things up:
An iron hammer with wooden handle was found embedded in rock in Cretaceous sediments near London, Texas. The enclosing rock contains Lower Cretaceous fossils.
Response:The hammer is encrusted with calcium carbonate, which can happen quickly. The fossils are in nearby rocks, not part of the material encrusting the hammer. There is no evidence that the hammer is more than a few decades old.

What relevance has the chalk crust to dating the hammer?
Fossils are used to date entire layers, but now the fossils must be right next to the hammer…
Did anyone C14 date the wooden hammer? Of course not - that would give support for a young date.
In 1912 an electric plant worker broke apart a large lump of coal, and an iron cup fell from the center, leaving a cast of the pot in the coal. The coal … is about 295 million years old, from the Mid-Pennsylvanian.
Response:
1…the coal was not found in situ but went through an unknown amount of processing between the mine and the discovery of the iron cup after the coal was delivered.
2… Without the original pot to analyze, we cannot say exactly how it was used.
3.The cup was likely dropped by a worker either inside a coal mine … Mineralization is common in the coal and surrounding debris of coal mines because rainwater reacts with the newly exposed minerals and produces highly mineralized solutions. Coal, sediments, and rocks are commonly cemented together in just a few years. It could easily appear that a pot cemented in such a concretion could appear superficially as if it were encased in the original coal.
  1. The ‘unknown’ processing must have been deliberate embedding of the cup in the coal…Right.
    Did anyone C14 date the coal?
  2. We didn’t do the analysis, so it can’t be trusted? … Why isn’t this logic used to question all of modern science that we personally don’t perform or witness?
  3. The cup embedded in the coal is a modern cup packed into compressed coal dust by rainwater? This is really desperation.
Over the past two centuries, researchers have found many bones and artifacts showing humans much like us existed in strata classified as millions of years old. But scientists have suppressed, ignored, or forgotten these pieces of evidence. Prejudices based on current scientific theory have acted as a knowledge filter. Thus we have come to accept a picture of prehistory that is largely incorrect. *The Hidden History of the Human Race *by Michael A. Cremo and Richard L. Thompson documents a great number of long hidden artifacts and skeletal remains. This is highly recommended to see through the smoke screen of modern prejudices.
nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/~ghi/hhhrchap.html#Evolutionary Preconceptions
21stcenturyradio.com/hiddenhistory.htm

The authors’ Hindu religion promotes belief in an infinite cycle of recurrent life-forms - reincarnation. This motivates their interesting interpretation of the presence of modern-type humans in environments up to 65 million years ago.

Basically they believe man has always been present, far beyond the limit of a few megayears placed by most Old Earth science. This is the opposite position to the YEC belief in < 10 kiloyears of human and Earth existences.

C14 dating would resolve the huge differnces in the infinite earth and YEC beliefs. But the authors only discuss radiocarbon dating once, and downplay its reliability based on possible young carbon contamination.
Previous references to suggested Late Triassic to Early Jurassic bird-like footprints have been reinterpreted as produced by non-avian dinosaurs
Isn’t ‘reinterpreted!’ a code word for - ‘Whoops - let’s rethink that last guess?’

Wouldn’t some readers think this is comical - establishing the ability to fly by examining the shape of footprints! How about the ostrich, emu and rhea footprints … can the footprints alone tell us - by themselves - if these birds could fly?

AMDG
 
To understand why I posted: “To me, the work of Dr. Carl R. Woese, Professor of Microbiology, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign offers exciting possibilities far beyond the one pattern of one tree with branches drawn by early evolutionary scientists. He is one of those unique persons not afraid to ask questions or explore possibilities.”]
Yes, Grannymh, like many scientists, Woese is a bright guy, and an important contributor to evolutionary theory.
 
Fossils are used to date entire layers, but now the fossils must be right next to the hammer…
Do you know how this works?
Did anyone C14 date the wooden hammer? Of course not - that would give support for a young date.
If the hammer was part of a limestone formation, the question is, why would you even ask that question?
  1. The ‘unknown’ processing must have been deliberate embedding of the cup in the coal…Right.
Truly outside the realm of possibiltiy.:rolleyes:
Did anyone C14 date the coal?
Hmm. Same question I asked about the hammer in the limestone. Why do you ask that question?
C14 dating would resolve the huge differnces in the infinite earth and YEC beliefs. But the authors only discuss radiocarbon dating once, and downplay its reliability based on possible young carbon contamination.
Let’s put on our thinking caps for just a second. Other than your idea that it is a great conspiracy, is there any other reason to not use C14 to determine an infinite earth?
Isn’t ‘reinterpreted!’ a code word for - ‘Whoops - let’s rethink that last guess?’
Perhaps in your world, but not in science.

Peace

Tim
 
The Catholic Church teaches Adam and Eve were two individuals. They committed Original Sin which required Christ to appear on earth.

Science is very limited. It cannot be relied upon to show God’s action in the world. And the word faith must be understood as truth. After Jesus ascended into heaven, those charged with preaching the Gospel told the people: if Christ didn’t rise from the dead our faith is in vain. So, you see, if that did not actually happen, our faith is in vain.

There are areas where science is not useful.

Peace,
Ed
 
The Catholic Church teaches Adam and Eve were two individuals. They committed Original Sin which required Christ to appear on earth.

Science is very limited. It cannot be relied upon to show God’s action in the world. And the word faith must be understood as truth. After Jesus ascended into heaven, those charged with preaching the Gospel told the people: if Christ didn’t rise from the dead our faith is in vain. So, you see, if that did not actually happen, our faith is in vain.

There are areas where science is not useful.

Peace,
Ed
I agree: Divine Revelation trumps.

However, my claim is –
The possibility of two people being the parents of all humans is not necessarily opposed to the general evolutionary theory found in natural science.

It is true, as you say above, that science “cannot be relied upon to show God’s action in the world.” However, it is very possible that science can observe God’s actions.
 
I agree: Divine Revelation trumps.

However, my claim is –
The possibility of two people being the parents of all humans is not necessarily opposed to the general evolutionary theory found in natural science.

It is true, as you say above, that science “cannot be relied upon to show God’s action in the world.” However, it is very possible that science can observe God’s actions.
“natural science”? Science cannot study the supernatural. The constant answer here is that so far, science cannot identify two individuals as our first parents but that is the constant teaching of the Church.

Yes, science could observe God’s actions and declare them not natural but that appears to be it.

Peace,
Ed
 
However, my claim is – The possibility of two people being the parents of all humans is not necessarily opposed to the general evolutionary theory found in natural science.
It is true, as you say above, that science “cannot be relied upon to show God’s action in the world.” However, it is very possible that science can observe God’s actions.
Sorry Granny, but if this is your claim, you don’t understand how science operates. You need to study genetic science to understand how genomes are constructed over the eons, and why there is zero evidence in the human genome that the population dropped below 3,000 - 10,000 breeding pairs, much less that it dropped twice to only one pair. You simply cannot reconcile genetics with a literal reading of the stories of Adam and Eve and of Noah. Feel free to hold either to a literal reading of Genesis while jettisoning genetic science, or to accept genetic science while rejecting a literal reading of Genesis. Attempting to reconcile them is as much a fool’s errand as is championing the flat earth in the era of NASA, I’m afraid.

StAnastasia
 
Sorry Granny, but if this is your claim, you don’t understand how science operates. You need to study genetic science to understand how genomes are constructed over the eons, and why there is zero evidence in the human genome that the population dropped below 3,000 - 10,000 breeding pairs, much less that it dropped twice to only one pair. You simply cannot reconcile genetics with a literal reading of the stories of Adam and Eve and of Noah. Feel free to hold either to a literal reading of Genesis while jettisoning genetic science, or to accept genetic science while rejecting a literal reading of Genesis. Attempting to reconcile them is as much a fool’s errand as is championing the flat earth in the era of NASA, I’m afraid.

StAnastasia
It is sad that you wish to champion a scientific interpretation while denying what the Church teaches. Adam and Eve - two real individuals. Why did Christ live and die, and rise again for all of us? Because of the Original Sin actually committed by our first parents. This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. That was a false and misleading statement.

The Bible tells us that through one man sin entered the world. Some can twist the meaning of Geneis all they want but they cannot deny the purpose of Christ’s sacrifice.

Peace,
Ed
 
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