Crackpot Challenge Part 2 - Evolution

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StAnastasia
To StAnastasia,

My understanding is that (post 419) is your position that genetics is opposed to the possibility of a single set of parents for Homo sapiens.

My response is that genetics, while essential, does not give a complete picture of the human person. Showing relationships between humans and chimps is dealing with half of reality.

One of the key characteristics of humans is “free will.” As you know, there is an ongoing debate as to the existence of free will. Personally, I would like to jump into the middle of this debate because free will, along with other related concepts, may be the trump card needed for the possibility of a single set of parents for Homo sapiens.

Alec has already provided a reference as a start: Desmurget et al, Movement Intention after Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans, Science 324 811 – 813 (2009) reference in post 322. Discussion follows in posts 337, 348, 357, 371, and 372.

To me, personally, at this point, it looks like free will does exist as a key characteristic of personhood. To me, this opens up the possibility that at some point Homo sapiens development was significantly different from what is now assumed.
 
To StAnastasia, My understanding is that (post 419) is your position that genetics is opposed to the possibility of a single set of parents for Homo sapiens. My response is that genetics, while essential, does not give a complete picture of the human person. Showing relationships between humans and chimps is dealing with half of reality. One of the key characteristics of humans is “free will.” As you know, there is an ongoing debate as to the existence of free will. Personally, I would like to jump into the middle of this debate because free will, along with other related concepts, may be the trump card needed for the possibility of a single set of parents for Homo sapiens.To me, personally, at this point, it looks like free will does exist as a key characteristic of personhood. To me, this opens up the possibility that at some point Homo sapiens development was significantly different from what is now assumed.R]

Granny, everything is based on evidence. While it is possible that earth is flat as the Bible implies, the evidence does not support that hypothesis. While it is possible that the entire universe revolves around the earth, the evidence does not support that hypothesis. While it is possible that all humans descended from “Adam” and “Eve,” the evidence does not support that hypothesis.

I’m not sure where you are going with free will. I agree with you that clearly that is one of the traits distinguishing humans from non-humans and from their pre-human ancestors. Humans have evolved free will along with their increasing neural endowment.

StAnastasia
 
Granny, everything is based on evidence. I’m not sure where you are going with free will. I agree with you that clearly that is one of the traits distinguishing humans from non-humans and from their pre-human ancestors. Humans have evolved free will along with their increasing neural endowment.

StAnastasia
StAnastasia,

Evidence. o.k.🙂

What is the evidence for the statement “Humans have evolved free will along with their increasing neural endowment.” from post 442. in the light of the opening statement “Granny, everything is based on evidence.” Thank you.
 
StAnastasia,Evidence. o.k.:)What is the evidence for the statement “Humans have evolved free will along with their increasing neural endowment.” from post 442. in the light of the opening statement “Granny, everything is based on evidence.” Thank you.
I believe I have free will (although the reductionists deny it) because I experience choice – the ability to do otherwise. Presumably bacteria, earthworms, and so on, do not have this experience – their behavior is far more constrained by their genetic predispositions.

Animals with higher neural endowments seem to experience more latitude for behavior, and thus greater freedom from constraint. I recently saw a video about an elephant and a dog that are best friends at a rescue facility, and it seems clear they have chosen each other’s company, and that the elephant – which could crush the dog – “chooses” gently to scratch the dog’s stomach.

Elephant choice is of course quite constrained compared with human choice, but even within the human species there seems to be a range of freedom. Some people are more capable of exercising free will to do otherwise than are other people who are more constrained.

I’m departing for a conference in the morning and will be e-incommunicado, so I’ll have to leave further elaboration for when I return (Sunday). But you raise a provocative question!

StAnastasia
 
Granny, everything is based on evidence. While it is possible that earth is flat as the Bible implies, the evidence does not support that hypothesis. While it is possible that the entire universe revolves around the earth, the evidence does not support that hypothesis. While it is possible that all humans descended from “Adam” and “Eve,” the evidence does not support that hypothesis.

I’m not sure where you are going with free will. I agree with you that clearly that is one of the traits distinguishing humans from non-humans and from their pre-human ancestors. Humans have evolved free will along with their increasing neural endowment.

StAnastasia
Self-wiring brains? That cannot be demonstrated by science. “Free will” cannot evolve.

Peace,
Ed
 
Thanks Alec for the explanation of what I was not allowed to read. This is appreciated and helpful.

I can understand why this paper was chosen to demonstrate intentionality, i.e., a conscious intention of a movement emerging as a “consequence of increased neural activity [by electrical stimulation?] in a premotor-parietal circuit, which elaborates motor plans before action.” Of course, I am curious if the same experiment was performed on anyone else or on any other vertebrates.

As long as I am into strange (for me) words, may I ask a favor? When I misuse a word or words, or slip into a malapropism, please offer a correction or corrections. I don’t mind your laughter; rather I look forward to it as laughter often puts things in perspective and lifts my spirit.

Back to this paper. It addresses motor intention and awareness which, appears to me, is in the physical body rather than coming from some non-physical spiritual domain. This paper asks: “Where in the brain are intentions formed?” If my understanding is correct, then I can understand this paper’s reasonableness provided all scientific protocol was exercised during the experiment on the seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.
 
Natural selection is not a random process.
Are all survival outcomes determined by fitness?
If all of a species were wiped out in a natural catastrophe, like a flood, would that be survival of the fittest?
More like extinction of the unluckiest…
Another missing link in evol. logic.
Every variant starts as a mutation.
There’s no proof of this, and no way to prove it. Variants can be built/designed, not the result of defects.
it is very difficult to make long term evolutionary forecasts
Then why not a specific short term forecast… or any specific testable prediction at all, as valid scientific theories do?
Even if evolution is incapable of generating the natural phenomena that you deem irreducibly complex, IC still relies upon a major logical fallacy to support ID.
That fallacy is obvious: denial of knowing the identity of the Intelligent Designer.

AMDG
 
Self-wiring brains? That cannot be demonstrated by science. “Free will” cannot evolve.
If free will evolved then it is the product of matter and physical laws. There would not be freedom because it would be determined by evolutionary processes. A choice to serve God or to do evil would be driven by mutations and natural selection – and nobody could be held responsible for any choices. If free-will evolved, then it is not free – it would not exist.
The entire history of human experience refutes this. Free-will does exist and people are held accountable for their decisions. Their choices are not predicted by science or determined by nature. The holy martyrs of our Faith teach us that there are noble choices we can make go against natural patterns for survival.
The spiritual nature of humanity is not the product of evolution - it is directly created by God (as taught explicitly in the Catechism).
 
You don’t know that; you just believe it.
When I see a man on TV interviewing a politician and the first words out of his mouth are: “Do you believe in evolution?” shortly followed by “yours is the belief party,” I am watching the reenforcement of atheist thought patterns across all media platforms.

Belief becomes the enemy. Evolution is elevated to a religion. There is no evidence for free will evolving unless you want to say that human beings are just slightly more complex snowflakes. Reggiem is right, by that definition, we are just randomly programmed and naturally selected biological robots without any real free will, only our programming. At one time: the devil made me do it. Today, my genes made me do it.

We are not haphazard mistakes or biological robots.

Peace,
Ed
 
If free will evolved then it is the product of matter and physical laws.
I am analyzing one study [Desmurget et al, Movement Intention after Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans, *Science 324 811 – 813 (2009)] which on the surface looks as if it is locating free will in the brain by referring to “willed actions” and asking “Where in the brain are intentions formed?” The study used direct electrical stimulation “delivered with a bipolar electrode using standard increasing intensities (2, 5, and 8 mA) and durations (1, 2, and 4s).” … 'Thus, researchers suggested that conscious intention of a movement emerged as a consequence of increased neural activity in a premotor-parietal circuit, which elaborates motor plans before action."

Alec had cited this paper. However, since I was denied access to the paper on the internet, he has provided me with requested information. Our discussion is in posts 337, 348, 357, 371, and 372. – Actually, the discussion is barely beginning.

My first impression is that while this study is impressive, it does not relate to the concept of free will and to the conditions which have to be present for free will to be exercised. My intention is to compare elements of this study with what is happening at Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota.
www.mayoclinic.org/awake-brain-surgery/brain-mapping,html

Alec suggested reading Haggard and Johnson, Experiences of Voluntary Action, Journal of Consciousness Studies 10, 72 - 84 (2003) Google found this as part of a book, Trusting the Subject edited by Anthony Jack and Andreas Roepstorff. I have only read it once and need to spend more time on it. Apparently, there is a time limit to viewing it because I couldn’t access it a second time ??? Hopefully, the limit is per day.

At first read, the article seems to be explaining what is happening in the brain but I had difficulty relating it to the ability of free will. It looked like there was voluntary action but it seemed more a misunderstanding of the nature of free will. Voluntary actions can take place out of habit or instinct. External situations can limit the use of freewill and even emotions or duress can at times override it.

It seems to me that researchers are trying to say that free will is the product of matter and physical laws; however, they are using something foreign to free will because they don’t fully understand what is involved. It seems to me that the results of a free will choice can, at times, be measured like singing on key. But the actual ability to sing is elusive.
 
It seems to me that researchers are trying to say that free will is the product of matter and physical laws; however, they are using something foreign to free will because they don’t fully understand what is involved. It seems to me that the results of a free will choice can, at times, be measured like singing on key. But the actual ability to sing is elusive.
Granny, why can’t it be “both… and”? Free will is the product of matter and physical laws, and it is also a quality of our spiritual beings? After all, the appreciation of music depends both on matter and physical laws, and on the aesthetic dimension of the human mind and spirit. Why must it be exclusively one or the other?

StAnastasia
 
It seems to me that researchers are trying to say that free will is the product of matter and physical laws; however, they are using something foreign to free will because they don’t fully understand what is involved. It seems to me that the results of a free will choice can, at times, be measured like singing on key. But the actual ability to sing is elusive.
That’s an excellent summary and example. Even the supposed “survival advantage” that should be found in singing ability is completely absent (aside from imagined evolutionary scenarios).
 
The implication of believing that dinosaurs and man inhabited the earth at the same time is that you accept YEC. I have a feeling that you don’t want to identify yourself as such because you are also aware of the other absurdities that this position entails.
More smear tactics by the evol guys. Golly gee, Ed West must be a fellow tranveler with the YEC’s. What a terrible thing to be, a YEC.

I wonder if that makes the “Monster Quest” scientists on the History Channel fellow travelers?

They are looking for live dinosaurs iln the Cameroons and the Congo on the Jarr River etc. I saw the show on TV last night. Oh my, lions, tigers, and dinosaurs, oh my. 😃
 
YEC is a political label. It diverts attention from actual research that shows geologic dates are incorrect and that there are depictions of dinosaurs by men.

It should be realized that in the war of the worldviews, the side opposing what the Church teaches believes it must fight or risk the idea of God becoming more popular in the minds of the people. Or worse, seeing such ideas seeping into the public school classroom.

I encourage those who are seeking the truth to continue, and present your findings.

Peace,
Ed
 
Granny, why can’t it be “both… and”? Free will is the product of matter and physical laws, and it is also a quality of our spiritual beings? After all, the appreciation of music depends both on matter and physical laws, and on the aesthetic dimension of the human mind and spirit. Why must it be exclusively one or the other?

StAnastasia
You have touched the soft spot of my heart. I am allergic to the mutually exclusive or. However, the “both…and” principle is not an universal “get out of jail” card. There must be discretion in its use which involves the principle of “choice.”

This morning my choice to use “both … and” is based on my bias that there is unity within the human being. While I cannot explain completely both the tangible and intangible aspects of my being, I know that they are intertwined somehow in the “whole” which is known as human.

First, let’s look at the example of music. One can say that making sound is an ability that belongs to animals and thus to me as human. Sound involves the use of vocal cords, etc. No need to go into the various types of sound, we can agree that sound needs matter and physical laws to be produced. But changing basic sound into music involves an ability or power or talent on the part of humans in order to reach an aesthetic dimension. Vocal chords, of themselves and by themselves, cannot produce an aria. If they could, I would be at the Met.

Like the ability to make sound, free will is an ability or power which uses the physical part of us, the brain and other elements of the human being to make choices or not make choices. The brain, of itself and by itself, being physical matter, does what it is able to do. It does not sing an aria on its own. However, once a human chooses to sing an aria over some modern forms of music, the brain is set in motion which starts motor activity etc.

A good example of the relationship between the brain and motor activity is the brain mapping technique used in awake brain surgery. Since it is obvious to the surgeons involved that the brain on its own will not demonstrate which part is related to which activity, stimulation is used on various parts of the brain which produces a “map”.

Apparently, some researchers are implying that because physical stimulation is used on the physical brain with physical results, the conclusion is that the idea of a non-physical intangible is challenged by the evidence. In other words, their idea of intention (which appears as a misuse of the free will concept) is a product of matter and physical laws. Those who use the free will concept correctly will spot some flaws in the conclusion.

Now, let’s look at the idea that free will is a product of matter and physical laws. Thus, free will would do what it is able to do according to that which produced it. When one looks a second time at “Desmurget et al, Movement Intention after Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans,” Science 324 811 – 813 (2009) reference in post 322, one sees that to get a physical brain moving intentionally etc., a physical bipolar electrode is used.

But, do we really want to undergo awake brain surgery to activate our brains when they are needed to carry out a serious intentional choice?
 
YEC is a political label.
No it is not. It is a descriptive label.
It diverts attention from actual research that shows geologic dates are incorrect and that there are depictions of dinosaurs by men.
No, it describes someone who believes in a young earth created as described in Genesis.

Peace

Tim
 
Apparently, some researchers are implying that because physical stimulation is used on the physical brain with physical results, the conclusion is that the idea of a non-physical intangible is challenged by the evidence. In other words, their idea of intention (which appears as a misuse of the free will concept) is a product of matter and physical laws. Those who use the free will concept correctly will spot some flaws in the conclusion.

The physical laws cannot give evidence of intention or free-choice, but only give evidence that free-will does not exist. The reduction of the brain to its component parts will reveal matter and physical laws. These either operate randomly (blind, unintelligent, unconsious) or by patterns determined in nature (physical laws). In neither case can there be any free-will.

This eliminates the “both and” option. All "free-will"would be the product of determnism or of blind, unconsious random activity in the brain. Theistic evolutionists would concede that there is no evidence that there is any evidence of the “spiritual nature” of humanity even in the observation of its effects (which orthodox Catholics can observe now – free choice rises above natural laws and above natural selection and cannot be determined by external forces).

Even if some kind of imaginary “spiritual nature” was posited, it would be useless against the determinism of physical laws and randomness. Its existence would be the product of blind faith or fantasy. There would be zero evidence that human beings had any spiritual component at all.

Most importantly, it would be claimed that all human activity was the product of matter and energy – and basically everyone would be a slave to nature.

That is precisely the opposite of what Christ came to teach. We are to rise above nature – that’s the supernatural life. Those who live as slaves to nature, driven by unconscious, unintelligent physical laws, will die in their sins. Ressurection is a rising above that – through the power of grace.

So, it’s not hard to see how evolutionary theory points very strongly to a destruction of the Catholic Faith. It doesn’t lead directly to that conclusion, necessarily. But these compromises that are made with materialism give all the concessions to an atheistic worldview and leave Christianity supported only by the weakest conjectures: blind faith; a new “god” who is ignorant and powerless against nature; a fantasy world with undetectable, ineffective “spirituality”; the absurdity of prayer to this “god”; illusions that moral decision-making and responsiblity for one’s actions are possible; and the meaningless of life which is driven to no purpose by natural laws that cannot care about humanity at all.
 
How would you define the human species?
The point is - no one can define ‘species’ for universal application and acceptance… that’s the stumbling block.
I have seen posts similar to what you describe and have rejected them in addition to rejecting any suggestion of polygenism. The good cause is two parents of the human race.
That’s not consistent with the rules of evidence here… read the question again.
Regarding speculation vs. validation. I am allergic to the mutually exclusive “or”.
There’s a pill for that - logical disjunctions between true and false.
What is wrong with speculation if it is labeled as such? Columbus did it. Is free (appropriate) speech here or not?
Is anyone stopping you from speaking/writing? This isn’t the Vatican’s Evolution STOQ conference - you can say all you want.
But the thread topic is challenging Darwinism with triple evidence - not a trip to fantasy island.
From a scientific perspective, invoking irreducible complexity to substantiate ID (or whatever it is you accept) relies on false dichotomy.
From a scientific perspective, we reject evol. because it is not a science ; not testable, not falsifiable and contrary to the scientific method … see prior posts.
…my position is that that [humans evolved separately] is not compatible with the molecular evidence. It is absolutely clear and incontrovertible that chimpanzees are the most closely related living species to humans and that we share a common ancestor who lived relatively recently (about 5 million years ago).
The study shows that humans and macaques share about 93% of their DNA sequence and shared a common ancestor roughly 25 million years ago.
How can there be testable molecular evidence back over thousands (millions? billions?) of years. The technology to do genetic testing is only a few decades old.

The comparison of matching genomes is specious… One codon in the epigenome can turn a gene on or off, make a gene into an anti-gene.

18.5% of worms and humans is carbon based. 22% of chimpanzees is carbon-based.
Therefore , worms are our most closely related living species … same (il)logic.
How many Baramins are there and how may we objectively recognise the boundaries between them? Is there an official list of the Baramins discovered to date available?
Baramin is a Genesis term for groups having no common descent. The Lord didn’t answer these questions, so we are left to discover them for ourselves.
Said another way: Baramin is as well-defined as ‘species’.
I am afraid that Hugh Miller’s work is not very convincing.
Sorry to hear that. We trust that the work of the co-authors, Dr. Josef Holzschuh and Dr. Jean de Pontcharra, is found to be convincing.

BTW: while we are being asked 20 questions about dino age testing…

Repeat:where are your DATA, not reference diversions, showing dino bone ages are outside the C14 range and can’t be tested?
Among other things the non-coding regions of DNA include our broken copy of the GULO gene, which is why we cannot make our own vitamin C.
If the gene is broken, it’s testimony to the genome corruption following the original sin in Eden.
In modern biology, it is generally accepted that all living organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.
When modernist biology can use the scientific method validly, instead of untestable extrapolation back to pre-historic times in the past- then it will be acceptable as evidence on this thread.
Please, I would appreciate the links to the abstracts and texts of the following papers:
An expert in biology, Dr. Pierre Rabischong then gave a fascinating description of the organization of the human body and concluded that the non-existent natural filiations among species and the high-tech nature of all living systems flatly contradict the evolutionary hypothesis.
As a population geneticist, Dr. Maciej Giertych evaluated the main evidence for the evolutionary hypothesis, namely race formation.

Reference to the proceedings publication was given in the same posting. And you’re welcome.
You’re not entitled to criticize a theory until you can demonstrate that you understand it.
What a big tent we offer here - all can be heard [who qualify.]

These words of welcome sounds familiar… is this the STOQ conference revisited?

AMDG
 
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