Cradle Catholic questioning if I belong

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Actually as a Catholic I don’t have to accept anybody’s version of common sense.

Good Morning Estesbob: You certainly are under no obligation to use any common sense. It’s your choice.

. I don’t have to try to figure things out , the Church has already done that for me. Unlike our separated brethren Catholics don’t have to engage in endless verse wars about what the sin of Onan was or what Jesus really meant when he was talking to Peter.

Again you are right. You are under no obligation to think. However, if you want to aceept what the church says, it might make sense to make an attempt at understanding what the church says and to know something of the history and reasoning for what it says so that you can do some practical application of it.

Regardless of ones denomination the idea that the Truth changes as man gets “smarter” is specious

You are right again. For instance, the truth has not changed on the matter of "pulling out " as a means of birth control. It was never an effective means of birth control. Just like the truth about washing your hair in the urine of a male child doesn’t cure bubonic plague hasn’t changed since it was practiced in the 14th century. It’s just that people know more now, so whether it’s believing that pulling out stops pregnancy, or that the urine of a male child cures plague or that lightening bugs are the souls of unbaptized children, the truth hasn’t changed. What has happened is that we simply know better now.

All the best
Gary

 

[St_Francis]

Answered you in my last post. There is absolutely no avoidance of pregnancy being practiced here. No offense intended, but if you would, I would ask that you do some modern day reading before you get back to me on the matter.

All the best,
Gary

It doesn’t matter if they are doing it fir contraceptive purposes or not: the act is incomplete and the Church teaches that this is wrong.

And it doesn’t really matter what you think, it only matters what **God **thinks.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

It doesn’t matter if they are doing it fir contraceptive purposes or not: the act is incomplete and the Church teaches that this is wrong.

And it doesn’t really matter what you think, it only matters what **God **thinks.

I believe that the Church teaches that contraception is wrong. Pulling out is not contraception.

All the best,
Gary

 

[estesbob]

Good Morning Estesbob: You certainly are under no obligation to use any common sense.

Again you are right. You are under no obligation to think. However, if you want to aceept what the church says, it might make sense to make an attempt at understanding what the church says and to know something of the history and reasoning for what it says so that you can do some practical application of it.

You are right again. For instance, the truth has not changed on the matter of "pulling out " as a means of birth control. It was never an effective means of birth control. Just like the truth about washing your hair in the urine of a male child doesn’t cure bubonic plague hasn’t changed since it was practiced in the 14th century. It’s just that people know more now, so whether it’s believing that pulling out stops pregnancy, or that the urine of a male child cures plague or that lightening bugs are the souls of unbaptized children, the truth hasn’t changed. What has happened is that we simply know better now.

All the best
Gary

So in your opinion what is the purpose of the Church? It appears you believe we should question its teachings especially if they contradict our own “common sense” When I was studying in the seminary we were taught that the Church guided by the Spirit . Is this not true? Is the Spirit to defer to mores of the current culture ?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

So in your opinion what is the purpose of the Church? It appears you believe we should question its teachings especially if they contradict our own “common sense” When I was studying in the seminary we were taught that the Church guided by the Spirit . Is this not true? Is the Spirit to defer to mores of the current culture ?

When you went to the seminary, what were you taught about the Church and where it gets it’s guidance from? Be specific if you would please.

All the best,
Gary

 

[estesbob]

When you went to the seminary, what were you taught about the Church and where it gets it’s guidance from. Be specific if you would please.

All the best,
Gary

Church teaching is built on three pillars. Scripture , sacred tradition and the teachings of the magisterium .

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Church teaching is built on three pillars. Scripture , sacred tradition and the teachings of the magisterium .

Good Morning Estesbob: What was the scripture and what was the tradition that cited the source of guidance, and to what were the names of the human beings to whom the guidance was conveyed upon?

All the best
Gary

 

[estesbob]

Good Morning Estesbob: What was the scripture and what was the tradition that cited the source of guidance, and to what were the names of the human beings to whom the guidance was conveyed upon?

All the best
Gary

The guidance is bestowed on the Magestrium.If you want a distillation of this guidance you read the Cathecism.

Who do you believe receives this guidance? How do we resolve it when we have people who disagree on what the guidance is ? Who was “common sense” prevails

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

The guidance is bestowed on the Magestrium.If you want a distillation of this guidance you read the Cathecism.

Who do you believe receives this guidance? How do we resolve it when we have people who disagree on what the guidance is ? Who was “common sense” prevails

Good Monring Estesbob: I have read the Catechism. This is not what I asked. I asked the names of the human beings that the guidance of the Holy Spirit was given to and on what occasion? From there, I would like the names from among these who then conferred that guidance to the Magestrium. It’s a fair question.

I have to go run some errands but I look forward to your reply and will answer as soon as I can.

All the best,
Gary

 

[OurLadysServant]

Good Monring Estesbob: I have read the Catechism. This is not what I asked. I asked the names of the human beings that the guidance of the Holy Spirit was given to and on what occasion? From there, I would like the names from among these who then conferred that guidance to the Magestrium. It’s a fair question.

I have to go run some errands but I look forward to your reply and will answer as soon as I can.

All the best,
Gary

That.answer is in the Catechism too.

Who has infallibility?
The ENTIRE catholic churches leaders,
Mainly Popes and gatherings of bishops especially, on any moral grounds and doctrine. Look up any statement from any Pope, and any decision from any World bishop meeting. This is where the RC True Church has spoken infallibly.

JESUS was infallible. He is God. This charism of infallibility was passed to the Office of Peter, His disciples, who passed it to the Early Church, present also in the Human writers of.the Bible.

Gary you are in a state of excommunication with the.Catholic.Church, if in disobedience to Christ’s infallible guidance in the catholic church;

Automatic excommunication happens to those;

Incredulity, heresy, apostasy, schism—Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is obstinate post-baptismal denial of a truth that must be believed with divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is total repudiation of the Christian faith. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or communion with the members of the Church (CCC 2089). These sins break the bonds of unity with the offender and the Catholic Church.
Mortal sin.

 

[OurLadysServant]

I believe that the Church teaches that contraception is wrong. Pulling out is not contraception.

All the best,
Gary

What “you” believe is an opinion.

What the church has “Factualised;” ANY act that deliberately attempts to blocks contraception is intrinsically evil.

Automatic excommunication follows immediately for catholics refusing to follow Catholic Doctrines and Papal authority.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

From OurLadysServant

Who has infallibility?
The ENTIRE catholic churches leaders,
Mainly Popes and gatherings of bishops especially, on any moral grounds and doctrine. Look up any statement from any Pope, and any decision from any World bishop meeting. This is where the RC True Church has spoken infallibly.

JESUS was infallible. He is God. This charism of infallibility was passed to the Office of Peter, His disciples, who passed it to the Early Church, present also in the Human writers of.the Bible.

Good Morning OurLadysServant: This doesn’t answer my question. I asked the names of the people on whom the guidance of the Holy Spirit was conveyed, and which of these conveyed that guidance on what institutional body. You have not answered that question.

Gary you are in a state of excommunication with the.Catholic.Church, if in disobedience to Christ’s infallible guidance in the catholic church;

Firstly, we are having a polite discussion among fellow Catholics. Secondly, I think you lack the authority to say who is excommunicated and who is not. Thirdly, while I am Catholic, I am not forbidden to ask questions or have discussions on these matters. I would encourage you to stick to points in fact and history when you are having discussions with me, and foremost of all I would ask that you maintain polite and not pass judgment on me. If you have a point, it will stand without threats or judgments on one another.

Automatic excommunication happens to those;

Incredulity, heresy, apostasy, schism—Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is obstinate post-baptismal denial of a truth that must be believed with divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is total repudiation of the Christian faith. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or communion with the members of the Church (CCC 2089). These sins break the bonds of unity with the offender and the Catholic Church.

With respect to revealed truth, the discussion is about what the revealed truth is. I have given no indication as to what I think the truth is. I have simply asked some questions and stated a few facts about contraception, to wit you have responded with the iron fist of dogma, which doesn’t work with me. Please just stick to facts, and let’s stay polite if you would please. If in the end the truth bears out that I should be excommunicated, I will happily approach my local bishop and ask to make it formal. Until then, let’s just stick to facts and maybe we’ll get to the truth. I am an honest man, I stick to my word, and all I am asking of you are some facts.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

What “you” believe is an opinion.

What the church has “Factualised;” ANY act that deliberately attempts to blocks contraception is intrinsically evil.

Automatic excommunication follows immediately for catholics refusing to follow Catholic Doctrines and Papal authority.

The OP has clearly stated that she is in fact trying to get pregnant, so the intent to prevent pregnancy is missing. The act she and her husband are performing doesn’t prevent pregnancy anyway. The point you are making is in conflict with medical realities. She isn’t guilty of anything, and lest you yourself be judged, I would recommend withholding your judgments on myself, the OP or any other person for that matter. I will also report you to the forum moderators if you keep excommunicating people. We have processes in our church, if nothing else.

All the best,
Gary

 

[St_Francis]

When you went to the seminary, what were you taught about the Church and where it gets it’s guidance from? Be specific if you would please.

All the best,
Gary

Altho I did not go to seminary, I have found out the answer to your question:
St Matthew in his gospel, book 16, verses 17 and 18, writes: And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because **flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. **And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Rock]; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Notice that Christ explicitly states that Simon has received this information from Heaven. He then goes on to say that the Church will be protected from teaching untruth.

I believe that the Church teaches that contraception is wrong. Pulling out is not contraception.

Pulling out is *most certainly *a form of contraception. However, the reason that contraception is wrong is that it blocks the generative nature of the act; thus, any marital act which is deliberately uncompleted is wrong.

 

[St_Francis]

…With respect to revealed truth, the discussion is about what the revealed truth is. I have given no indication as to what I think the truth is. I have simply asked some questions and stated a few facts about contraception, to [which] you have responded with **the iron fist of dogma, which doesn’t work with me. Please just stick to facts, **and let’s stay polite if you would please. If in the end the truth bears out that I should be excommunicated, I will happily approach my local bishop and ask to make it formal. Until then, let’s just stick to facts and maybe we’ll get to the truth. I am an honest man, I stick to my word, and all I am asking of you are some facts.

All the best,
Gary

Dogma *are *facts.

Briefly: there is natural knowledge, the knowledge people can come to through their own [good] reasoning. Then there is *revealed knowledge, *that knowledge which we can not figure out on our own and which thus must be revealed to us by God.

Christ came down from Heaven to teach us this type of knowledge (some of which had been previously revealed by God as described in the OT). Christ taught the Apostles, they teach the rest of us, just as He commanded:

St Matthew 28, 18–20: And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to Me in Heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Thus, what the Church teaches us is facts, facts which are revealed to us by God.

Ultimately, the One against Whom you are arguing is God Himself.

 

[estesbob]

Good Monring Estesbob: I have read the Catechism. This is not what I asked. I asked the names of the human beings that the guidance of the Holy Spirit was given to and on what occasion? From there, I would like the names from among these who then conferred that guidance to the Magestrium. It’s a fair question.

I have to go run some errands but I look forward to your reply and will answer as soon as I can.

All the best,
Gary

And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas [also called Thaddeus or Jude] the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

 

[OurLadysServant]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

The OP has clearly stated that she is in fact trying to get pregnant, so the intent to prevent pregnancy is missing. The act she and her husband are performing doesn’t prevent pregnancy anyway. The point you are making is in conflict with medical realities. She isn’t guilty of anything, and lest you yourself be judged, I would recommend withholding your judgments on myself, the OP or any other person for that matter. I will also report you to the forum moderators if you keep excommunicating people. We have processes in our church, if nothing else.

All the best,
Gary

Gary I didn’t excommunicate you,

I’m just.quoting the church law that disobedience to catholic doctrine, And Papal Authority under the three conditions of mortal sin, creates immediate excommunication for the individual. Without anyone else doing anything or without any process. It’s an immediate result under the three conditions.

I’m just.telling a fact of roman catholic doctrine,
I did not invent this doctrine,
I am quoting Catholic doctrine,
and this website is for roman catholics to talk about roman catholic doctrine and roman catholic beliefs.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Dogma *are *facts.

Briefly: there is natural knowledge, the knowledge people can come to through their own [good] reasoning. Then there is *revealed knowledge, *that knowledge which we can not figure out on our own and which thus must be revealed to us by God.

Christ came down from Heaven to teach us this type of knowledge (some of which had been previously revealed by God as described in the OT). Christ taught the Apostles, they teach the rest of us, just as He commanded:

St Matthew 28, 18–20: And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to Me in Heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Thus, what the Church teaches us is facts, facts which are revealed to us by God.

Ultimately, the One against Whom you are arguing is God Himself.

The term dogma can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, religion, or issued decisions of political authorities.

All the best
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Gary I didn’t excommunicate you,

I’m just.quoting the church law that disobedience to catholic doctrine, And Papal Authority under the three conditions of mortal sin, creates immediate excommunication for the individual. Without anyone else doing anything or without any process. It’s an immediate result under the three conditions.

I’m just.telling a fact of roman catholic doctrine,
I did not invent this doctrine,
I am quoting Catholic doctrine,
and this website is for roman catholics to talk about roman catholic doctrine and roman catholic beliefs.

And I am a Roman Catholic asking some questions and asserting some medical truths. If understanding medical facts is cause for excommunication, then so be it.

All the best
Gary

 

[OurLadysServant]

The OP has clearly stated that she is in fact trying to get pregnant, so the intent to prevent pregnancy is missing. The act she and her husband are performing doesn’t prevent pregnancy anyway. The point you are making is in conflict with medical realities. She isn’t guilty of anything, and lest you yourself be judged, I would recommend withholding your judgments on myself, the OP or any other person for that matter. I will also report you to the forum moderators if you keep excommunicating people. We have processes in our church, if nothing else.

All the best,
Gary

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

The OP has clearly stated that she is in fact trying to get pregnant, so the intent to prevent pregnancy is missing. The act she and her husband are performing doesn’t prevent pregnancy anyway. The point you are making is in conflict with medical realities. She isn’t guilty of anything, and lest you yourself be judged, I would recommend withholding your judgments on myself, the OP or any other person for that matter. I will also report you to the forum moderators if you keep excommunicating people. We have processes in our church, if nothing else.

All the best,
Gary

Gary I didn’t excommunicate you,

I’m just.quoting the church law that disobedience to catholic doctrine, And Papal Authority under the three conditions of mortal sin, creates immediate excommunication for the individual. Without anyone else doing anything or without any process. It’s an immediate result under the three conditions.

You are against catholic doctrine of:
-Papal Infallibility
-Rc church infallibility on all moral issues
-Obedience to Papal authority and RC church infallibility
-RC church as the True Church
-Rc church belief that the Holy Spirit does not lead people out of the True Church(RC church)
-Belief in Church Tradition
-RC church teaches infallibility of New Testament in the Bible (you said the Bible can mean just about anything)
-Against the doctrine of Sunday obligation of a RC catholic to go to a RC church to worship the.True Presence of Our Lord in the mass
-The RC church doctrine stated over all medical issues is also infallible; , (and yes, that is an obligation of every baptised catholic to be in agreement with)

I’m just.quoting the church law that disobedience to catholic doctrine (including whats mentioned above), And Papal Authority (which includes everything in the Catechism) the under the three conditions of mortal sin, creates immediate excommunication for the individual. Without anyone else doing anything or without any process. It’s an immediate result under the three conditions.

Based on RC church doctrines which are infallible, You are a baptized catholic, believing things contrary to Catholic infallible doctrine mentioned, persuading people to be protestants, on a Catholic Forum.

I’m just.telling a fact of roman catholic doctrine,
I did not invent this doctrine,
I am quoting Catholic doctrine,
and this website is for roman catholics to talk about roman catholic doctrine and roman catholic beliefs.

I am just quoting RC doctrinal beliefs and facts, for the sake of readers, you, and the OP.