Cradle CatholIcs vs. Converts

[PatriceA]

I see the divide LaSainte is talking about. It’s odd, because I am a convert, but married to a cradle. I usually find myself somewhere in the middle of all of these arguments (reading - I don’t feel brave enough to jump in! I’ve got a soft ego and someone may bruise it)

I like that I am learning so much on CAF but there is definitely a LOT of uncharitable behavior. I guess even though most of us are Catholics, it’s still the Internet

I’ve observed a divide as well, but not the point of view that LaSainte is describing. Both sides, converts and cradles, can sometimes get into a battle on who makes the better Catholic. Both sides can be terribly uncharitable towards each other.

 

[TuAutem]

…

Thank you for that, I found it fascinating and I know many in my family can identify with what you describe (I don’t neatly fit into either category myself, which may help me see both sides).

It may be a matter of having gone through RCIA or not, or as another poster said it may be a matter of simply following the Church’s teaching or not. But in either case, there are many Catholics who have not been properly catechized. And I seem to hear more horror stories from those who went through Catholic schools than those who went through RCIA, although I have heard horror stories of both. (And many stories of those who discovered the fulness and wealth of Catholic teaching in both.)

An internet forum, even one focused on Christian spirituality, can be a harsh place to get answers, since one doesn’t always get the patience and back-and-forth needed to work through some of the more countercultural teachings of the Church. I think that you will find that these forums are quite helpful and supportive for finding out what the Church teaches, and answering specific questions about why. But you will not get much sympathy for questioning whether the Church’s teachings are correct or not. Being Catholic means that when one disagrees with the Church, one knows oneself to be in the wrong!

I think the first point to truly explore and understand is, whether the Catholic Church is an institution of God, which holds the authority it claims to hold. If it does, and we agree that it does, then any further difficulties have to be faced with an attitude of “why does the Church teach that?” (And not, “is the Church right?”, since that question has already been settled.)

[Fortunately, attrition is sufficient for us to make a confession, so that even if we have sinned in an area we do not understand the Church’s position, so long as we acknowledge that the Church is right and we were wrong to go against her teaching–and don’t desire to in the future–we can have absolution. This is important because through the grace of the sacraments we are often led into the fulness of truth eventually–it doesn’t have to happen all at once. So long as one commits to following the Church.]

Anyway, I enjoyed this post and found it helpful for understanding a place many other Catholics may be coming from, and hope that the next generations’ experiences of learning about the faith will be handled better!

 

[LaSainte]

Little one, I started out with hrs premIse that I was only referring to “SOME OF US” and then shortened that to “we”. I hope you understand.

Also to everyone here, this is not a horror story. To tell the truth, it’s quite common in Catholic families and upbringings and we always just laughed these things off. “Better pull down your skirt before Sister Marie sees it and calls you a whore, haha”.

My point is only that we come from vey different backgrounds and cradle Catholics are very harshly judged on his board. There is a very ig psychological difference between growing into an adult, FINDING the faith, DECIDING that you believe ALL of it and willfully becoming a Catholic and being born into it, being told “This is what you believe and if you don’t you’re going to hell so you better MAKE yourself believe, or at least don’t resist.”

A lot of us are trying very hard to conform our thoughts, hearts and minds to the Church and it is not easy for someone who didn’t necessarily CHOOSE the Church as a well-informed adult. So being told hat we are not real Catholics and we should find another church (as happens A LOT) on this forum is hurtful and makes our journey and our attempts to sort things out in our hearts and minds even more difficult.

Lay off.

 

[SalesianSDB]

I totally agree your point on “Submit to the Church or become a protestant.”

I believe in the Eucharist, the Blessed Mother, the intercession of the saints, the deuterocanonical, the sacraments, the Pope…the Protestants won’t take me.

 

[Fran65]

I’m a convert. I still struggle with many of the teachings, but am doing my best to understand them and accept them, just as any Catholic should.

I went to an Anglican school. The cane was regularly used, but only on the boys. We had a headmaster who had all the girls of my year go into the hall and raise their skirts in front of him so that he could check whether we were wearing the right colour/style knickers. There were plenty of female teaching staff…

We had a teacher who made us take off our coats while still outside in the freezing snow so that there would be ‘less fuss’ in the cloakroom.

I had a teacher not believe that I had finished the reading scheme (I was a very smart little girl) and she made me start over again. I still loved reading though.

We were also made to stand up in assembly (while everyone else was sitting cross legged on the floor) if we had not gone to church on the previous Sunday.

When I converted (at 18) I saw a priest once a week in his sitting room in front of a giant TV, with a glass of whiskey in one hand and a cigar in the other. He told me that contraception was up to me as most people didn’t obey anyway and that he knew for a fact that most people slept through mass which was also their choice. It didn’t put me off and I simply went away and read about Catholicism for myself.

I find the assumption that poor experiences during childhood and formation excuses or explains beliefs now to be quite limiting.

 

[LaSainte]

Thank you for that, I found it fascinating and I know many in my family can identify with what you describe (I don’t neatly fit into either category myself, which may help me see both sides).

It may be a matter of having gone through RCIA or not, or as another poster said it may be a matter of simply following the Church’s teaching or not. But in either case, there are many Catholics who have not been properly catechized. And I seem to hear more horror stories from those who went through Catholic schools than those who went through RCIA, although I have heard horror stories of both. (And many stories of those who discovered the fulness and wealth of Catholic teaching in both.)

An internet forum, even one focused on Christian spirituality, can be a harsh place to get answers, since one doesn’t always get the patience and back-and-forth needed to work through some of the more countercultural teachings of the Church. I think that you will find that these forums are quite helpful and supportive for finding out what the Church teaches, and answering specific questions about why. But you will not get much sympathy for questioning whether the Church’s teachings are correct or not. Being Catholic means that when one disagrees with the Church, one knows oneself to be in the wrong!

I think the first point to truly explore and understand is, whether the Catholic Church is an institution of God, which holds the authority it claims to hold. If it does, and we agree that it does, then any further difficulties have to be faced with an attitude of “why does the Church teach that?” (And not, “is the Church right?”, since that question has already been settled.)

[Fortunately, attrition is sufficient for us to make a confession, so that even if we have sinned in an area we do not understand the Church’s position, so long as we acknowledge that the Church is right and we were wrong to go against her teaching–and don’t desire to in the future–we can have absolution. This is important because through the grace of the sacraments we are often led into the fulness of truth eventually–it doesn’t have to happen all at once. So long as one commits to following the Church.]

Anyway, I enjoyed this post and found it helpful for understanding a place many other Catholics may be coming from, and hope that the next generations’ experiences of learning about the faith will be handled better!

thank you so much for this post! I found your comments to be extremely helpful. So I guess you belong to a third as-yet-undefined group of Catholic moderates then? Just kidding . Thanks so much for the thoughtful and kind response.

 

[LaSainte]

Thank you, OP, for having the courage to tell your story. Many of us who also grew up Catholic can see glimmers of our childhoods in yours.

While I myself never experienced corporal punishment in school, my 71-year-old mother has scars on the back of her left hand that were put there by the nuns’ rulers, nuns who attempted to ‘cure’ her left-handedness by beating that hand every time they caught her writing with it. Suffice it to say that she has less than fond memories of her Catholic education.

Oh my gosh yes, my hubby’s dad was “cured” of being left-handed as well by the nuns. Now he can barely write wth either one

 

[LaSainte]

It made me laugh a lot your description, it fits mine in Portugal. worse still, I entered and left Seminary. So guess where in hell I should be, in bottom-bottom.

It was a pleasure to read this text, which made me aware, as I am new, that there is a group you call the Converts. Never noticed that. I was to say a joke but I am in trouble with moderation of the Forum and I do not know whether my Latin Jokes please the crow here so let’s wait for reflections then I will go on.

thanks for the absolutely neat scenario of the craddle christians. I will keep this thread in mind.

Haha. Thanks for the encouragement! I’m glad someone was able to laugh about it! I sure do. Sometimes you just HAVE to laugh at these things

 

[Fran65]

So being told hat we are not real Catholics and we should find another church (as happens A LOT) on this forum is hurtful and makes our journey and our attempts to sort things out in our hearts and minds even more difficult.

I’m sorry that this has happened to you and to others. It should not happen. We’re all in this together and trying to find our way to Christ.

 

[JamestheOlder]

I wonder if we have a troll here. The subject of this thread is a bit strange and it sounds like the OP wants to cause an argument.

No. I think the OP may speak the truth.

Think about the time frame: the eighties, the same time my son was going through Confirmation class. Today he is a CINO (Catholic in name only), married outside the Church, bitter about his experiences. My daughter, eight years older, suffered also from the insecurity and confusion exhibited by CCD trainers and teachers in the glow of the famed “spirit of Vatican II”. Today she is divorced, remarried outside the Church. It is my estimation that “cradle Catholic” children of that era are seriously deficient in dogma and Church history, primarily, but also in learning about the Laws of the Church.

I would defer to others who experienced “Catholic education” in the 80’s. We did not have a Catholic school in our area, so my two children went though CCD. It was not well done; it was confused, both about what to teach and how to teach it. The result seemed to be a mishmash, similar to the confusion that reigned in public schools during the same period. Lots of fluff, lots of experimentation, not too firm on the basic doctrines of the Church.

My own Catholic schooling, in the forties and fifties, was wonderful, compliments of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (SSND) and the Franciscans. My children, on the other hand, suffered from the tragic experimentation and flawed enthusiasm of CCD teaching in those years, and they have never really recovered.

As the OP pointed out, much of the blame can be assessed to their parents, like me, who left the Catholic training to untrained, unsupervised rank amateurs, and then insisted on these kids going to CCD, and paying attention to teachers who did not have a proper education in the Catholic Faith. We are still paying the tragic price for that “one or two missing generations” who now are teaching CCD. But now, we have at least one, maybe two generations of those who have been received into the Church through RCIA, who can counter-balance the “untrained” cradle Catholics.

I don’t want to tar all who lived through those times with the same brush. I am sure there are well-trained cradle Catholics who emerged from that tumultuous time. But, yes, cut these folk some slack so they can re-learn what they were supposed to be taught. Especially, be patient with their questions. We owe them at least that much in true Charity.

Please pray for my son and daughter.

 

[Brendan]

I see the divide LaSainte is talking about. …:

I don’t.

I’m a cradle Catholic and my experiences are not a thing like LaSainte’s. I grew up in a house where my parents loved the Church and knew what the Church taught and why. My father was a physcian who had lots of philosophy back when taking philosophy at a Catholic University was synomous with studying “Aquinas”

Granted, the Catholic schools of the 70’s and 80’s didn’t teach me much about my faith, my parents did.

Far from losing my Faith in college, I ran a Catholic bible study in my dorm room.

As for an exciting conversion, God offers those to everyone, simply look for it and accept it.

I’ve had several, they came when I married my wife ( a fallen away Catholic\ agnostic that I had to explain why I went to Church on Sunday’s), others came when God gifted us with children.

 

[LaSainte]

Corki I loved reading your reply and I really thank you for it! It’s always interesting to hear how someone’s upbringing has affected their point of view and it’s good to know that you had a mostly positive experience.

I actually really liked being raised Catholic and the rest of the stuff pretty much rolled off my back and was something to laugh at as I got older. Like why is here always one creepy priest???

Anyway I never wanted this thread to come off as a diatribe against he Church, because I know that the Church is NOT what I fully experienced growing up (although I did get some wonderful glimmers of it). I love the Church and will never leave. I just was hoping to shed some light on the dynamics that go on with some people to maybe help some of he converts see where and why some of us struggle with certain aspects of Church teaching.

 

[LaSainte]

No. I think the OP may speak the truth.

Think about the time frame: the eighties, the same time my son was going through Confirmation class. Today he is a CINO (Catholic in name only), married outside the Church, bitter about his experiences. My daughter, eight years older, suffered also from the insecurity and confusion exhibited by CCD trainers and teachers in the glow of the famed “spirit of Vatican II”. Today she is divorced, remarried outside the Church. It is my estimation that “cradle Catholic” children of that era are seriously deficient in dogma and Church history, primarily, but also in learning about the Laws of the Church.

I would defer to others who experienced “Catholic education” in the 80’s. We did not have a Catholic school in our area, so my two children went though CCD. It was not well done; it was confused, both about what to teach and how to teach it. The result seemed to be a mishmash, similar to the confusion that reigned in public schools during the same period. Lots of fluff, lots of experimentation, not too firm on the basic doctrines of the Church.

My own Catholic schooling, in the forties and fifties, was wonderful, compliments of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (SSND) and the Franciscans. My children, on the other hand, suffered from the tragic experimentation and flawed enthusiasm of CCD teaching in those years, and they have never really recovered.

As the OP pointed out, much of the blame can be assessed to their parents, like me, who left the Catholic training to untrained, unsupervised rank amateurs, and then insisted on these kids going to CCD, and paying attention to teachers who did not have a proper education in the Catholic Faith. We are still paying the tragic price for that “one or two missing generations” who now are teaching CCD. But now, we have at least one, maybe two generations of those who have been received into the Church through RCIA, who can counter-balance the “untrained” cradle Catholics.

I don’t want to tar all who lived through those times with the same brush. I am sure there are well-trained cradle Catholics who emerged from that tumultuous time. But, yes, cut these folk some slack so they can re-learn what they were supposed to be taught. Especially, be patient with their questions. We owe them at least that much in true Charity.

Please pray for my son and daughter.

WOW. Thank you for this wonderful post and my prayers go out for your children that they may find the Truth we are all seeking!

 

[LaSainte]

I totally agree your point on “Submit to the Church or become a protestant.”

I believe in the Eucharist, the Blessed Mother, the intercession of the saints, the deuterocanonical, the sacraments, the Pope…the Protestants won’t take me.

Haha! Yes. They’ll never take me alive!

 

[vsedriver]

We never got to choose to be Catholic. We were born, baptized, sent to Catholic school, and that was it. Unlike a convert, we never “found” Catholicism and studied every aspect and doctrine of the Faith, decided it all made perfect sense and then went through a lengthy and exciting conversion process where we came out the other end ready to die for even the smallest teaching of the Church.

one can be a cradle catholic and still ‘find’ catholicism.

Yes, I was a cradle catholic, yes, I as poorly taught. But I don’t blame my family, teachers, priests or schools, because in the long run it is my responsibility to learn about my faith. We are blessed to live in an age when Church teaching is more accessible than at any other time in history.

Personally I did ‘choose’ to be Catholic. I chose in my mid twenties. I looked around, checked out other religions, other faiths but I was very very close to Jesus and couldn’t not be a Christian. Next, I had to determine who had the Truth when it came to Christianity. That could only point to the Orthodox or the Catholic Church. I chose the Catholic Church because Jesus gave the keys to Peter and only Peter.

It has taken me years to understand some of the Church’s teaching but I have never been disappointed. In every case the Church teaches the Truth.

Two weeks ago my sister was visiting and I took her to our parish church and school to show her the restoration work going on in the parish. I’ve very active in working on the statues and decorations. In the school she spouted off about how horrible her school days were. How she hated it. How mean the nuns and priests were. We were in the same school and are only 1 year apart and in fact were in the same classroom as they did group some grades.

Same school, same teachers, same parents. She blames the church for all the bad things in her life and is now Lutheran. I’m a devout Catholic. But it is so much safer to blame the Church than to take responsibility for our own failings.

To know the Church is to love the Church. Many, many cradle Catholics do not ‘know’ the Church.

 

[mcrow]

The part of the OP’s post that I find offensive is the way she makes cradle Catholics out to be helpless dimwits. I’m a very recent convert, a well studied one at that but I would never say that Craddle Catholics are any less educated in the faith than I am.

There are many very knowledgable Craddle Catholics here and I know several in our church. I’ve learned a lot from Craddle Catholics during my conversion process.

No, I cannot know what it’s like to have grown up Catholic. I do feel that a minority of cases of questionable behvior by nuns paired with sensationalism of kids is what has lead to this reputation of terrible Catholic schools.

Also, claiming to be a dimwit because of poor catechisis seems like an easy way out. Sure, you can be mislead and can be poorly informed but you were given more tools in faith as a Craddle Catholic than I was ever given growing up in a Godless home. Somehow I managed to find my way through accepting the Graces of God.

You cannot blame your lack of knowledge of your faith on the Church or your school. We are free people, we can look into things ourselves if that’s what we really want. You chose not to dig in and study up, for whatever reason that may be. Go to the library, talk to a priest, go to the internet (if availible at the time). God’s Graces are not hidden, you just need to open your eyes an look.

I also don’t see this battle between Craddle Catholics and Converts. However, I would say that by and large the Converts are more zealous and more well read on the subject. On the other hand, most of the Craddle Catholics here are just as knowledgable, if not more, than the Converts. I do think that the average Craddle Catholic at church is less up on the teachings of the church and many of the older ones may be completely unaware of some of the changes. I think over time, a convert will become the same as an average CC if they do not actively hone there skill and faith. So, I would say it’s less about how you came to the faith and more about being active in it.

An active Craddle Catholic, an active Convert…there is no difference, IMO.

 

[LaSainte]

At what point did I EVER say we were helpless dimwits? I think we all assumed that we were getting the correct information and we trusted priests and nuns and CCD and our schools to provide us with that information. I don’t think that makes anyone helplessnor dimwitted. We didn’t HAVE the Internet back then and had no reason to believe that our catechesis was lacking in any way. It wasn’t until I was much older that I saw a dichotomy between what I had been taught and what the Church itself actually states.

 

[LaSainte]

Also, the fact is that many Catholic schools were just not very good educational institutions. I don’t know how it is now, but back then, the teachers at Catholic schools were so underpaid that almost none of them even had degrees. The schools would take almost any “Catholic” willing to work for pennies on the dollar. How many of us had a the school P.E. teacher or football coach suddenly show up in Math or History class and just start teaching because the previous teacher up and quit?

I’m actually hoping the schools have gotten better because I would like to send my kids to Catholic school, but our public schools where I live are exemplary as far as academics go, so it’s a tough choice.

 

[cviolette]

Also, the fact is that many Catholic schools were just not very good educational institutions. I don’t know how it is now, but back then, the teachers at Catholic schools were so underpaid that almost none of them even had degrees. The schools would take almost any “Catholic” willing to work for pennies on the dollar. How many of us had a the school P.E. teacher or football coach suddenly show up in Math or History class and just start teaching because the previous teacher up and quit?

I’m actually hoping the schools have gotten better because I would like to send my kids to Catholic school, but our public schools where I live are exemplary as far as academics go, so it’s a tough choice.

I was in a Catholic school until 7th grade. When I switch to a public school, I was put in all honors classes and received straight As. And there were only a couple priest and they were both great. Also, my parish priest was strict but a good priest.

You will receive a better education at the local Catholic school in my area and the children graduating also know their religion. I know the priest and he is an excellent priest.

While in Catholic school, I did have a chalk board erasers thrown at my head, hit with a ruler and sat in a corner with a dunce cap. But I was much safer at the Catholic school then when I switched to public.

In the Catholic school, boys and girls had separate playgrounds. In the public school, boys and girls were sleeping together. It was quite a shock when I started 7th grade. It didn’t take me long to start taking drugs and dating boys. And I dealt with more male teachers that were very touchy, feely and not in a good way.

High school was a disaster. Started Freshman year with a group of girls that want to beat me up. I was a fast runner To get into school, you passed people selling all kinds of things. Keg party tickets, pot, acid, speed etc. There was a smoking area in our school were we could smoke pot in between classes.

I went to CCD. I was definitely did not learn anything about my religion. But that was my own fault. I was always high during class.

I recently returned to my religion and trying to follow 100% of the Church’s Teachings. I feel more like a convert than a cradle Catholic because I only recent learned about my religion and am following it. It is a beautiful religion and I am thrilled to finally be home. It is not the Catholic Churches fault for my life’s disaster. It is my fault for not making God first in my life.

I have several friends that are cradle Catholics that have always followed the church and they are very strict with the rules. I love being around them and learning.

 

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you.

I would like to bring to the attention of everyone following this thread, that in my opinion, a false dichotomy has been set up in the very title of this thread between two friendly groups that are actually one…namely, baptized Catholics who are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Not to be in full communion with the Bishop of Rome means not fully accepting all of the Magisterial teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church over which he presides with the authority of Christ Jesus Himself.

All Catholics, regardless of when they were baptized, are called to acknowledge the successor of Peter, the Holy Father, currently Pope Benedict XVI, as their leader in the faith.

Catholics baptized as infants and Catholics baptized after the use of reason are equally called to profess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith.

I believe a real dichotomy exists between finite creatures, created out of nothing, who fully accept and embrace the Magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church vs those finite creatures, created out of nothing, who do not fully accept and embrace the Magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church. (“Magister” in latin means “teacher”).

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3