Create a Fair Immigration Policy

[Ani_Ibi]

mystified:

Our northern border leaks worse that the southern

Are you posting from the US? If so, can you give me something to read on this that supports your claim? It’s been quite a while since I last joined an immigration thread.

mystified:

As long as politicians are in charge, the broken system is only going to be patched, not replaced.

Who do you suggest be in charge?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

lsusportsfan:

I am beginning to wonder when I see the decling demographics of Europe, Australia, and the East who the heck we are going to be trading with in the future.

Um… is Canada not your largest trading partner? What? You don’t luv us anymore?

:crying:

lsusportsfan:

At some point as a Nation we have got to start focusing on this North, Central, and South America bith for Economic and National Security survival.

:yup: What does that look like?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Mirdath:

On the other hand, while it’s always nice to add Nobel Laureates from other countries to the rolls, unskilled labor is not only badly needed, it’s one source of seeds for our own homegrown geniuses too!

One of the things that is broken in the Ontario immigration spectrum is that the Feds attract immigrants with high academic skills. Ontario doesn’t have jobs for them but has a labour shortage in technical areas. So folks who literally put their life savings on the line to immigrate lose everything, end up driving taxis, and nurture a growing bitterness and sense of alienation in the Great ‘White’ North. Some of them try going ‘home’ and discover that they are not welcome there anymore. Don’t fit in.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hey vern – I can actually partly get behind your last post, especially the fifth point.

Thanks.

Your fourth point I agree with entirely, except the bit about ‘the only way to solve the problem.’ I’m not sure just what you mean by “solving” or just what problem you are referring to. There are LOTS of problems going on in this issue, and many ways to alleviate them.

The problem is simple – people come to the United States illegally to get what they cannot get at home. If their countries were free and prosperous, they wouldn’t need to come here.

Or to put it another way, how many US citizens do you see slipping across the border illegally to get jobs in Mexico?

The third…well, realistically, I agree with it up to where you added commentary. We do have a responsibility, as things stand now, to manage immigration, for the benefit of the whole, including US citizens and hopeful future-citizens. On the other hand, while it’s always nice to add Nobel Laureates from other countries to the rolls, unskilled labor is not only badly needed, it’s one source of seeds for our own homegrown geniuses too! (Here’s a really cool and inspiring link about some kids who are the perfect example – wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot.html )

We don’t need to exploit people. And if we are going to treat them like US citizens – with minimum wage and so on, why not employ US citizens?

You should visit my brother in Texas – he always shows me the “job corner” where the illegals wait for someone to come by and hire them. And he always says, “You notice you don’t see any American citizens standing on that corner.”

That’s because we have both priced unskilled American citizens out of the labor market and paid them** not** to work.

The other two, yes I have issues with those as they’re stated, since the problems aren’t quite that simple, but that’s enough for now I think.

Go down to the border and take a look at the crime, smuggling and human suffering.

Ah, one last thing. You’re right, I was lucky enough to have parents who supported me through high school, and I worked to save money for the future. I never said otherwise, nor would I dare compare my experience with that of those in desperate need – hence the tone I took with you. I know people, US born and raised, who weren’t so fortunate as you or I, but they would still blush at calling their own cases (working from age twelve and even younger for adequate clothing, medical care, education, and so on) similar to that of, say, a migrant farmworker.

I have worked with migrant farmworkers – read “A Painted House.” The migrants in that novel came from the county where I graduated from high school.

 

[TheApologist]

I think a big thing not being gotten at in this thread is the legality and what the Church says about legality.(Hopefully my English is okay in that sentence…)

The Church says you should help others, yes, but she also says you must respect the laws of countries. I’m all for immigration…immigration that respects the laws of the country to which immigration is entering.

Maybe the legal immigration system needs reform, but that’s not the point. The point is that if immigrants aren’t becoming citizens according to the law, then they are breaking that law. Those that break the law should not be allowed to continue without some sort of punishment, chatisement. Just because the immigrants need work does not give them the freedom to break the law.

 

[lsusportsfan]

Those that break the law should not be allowed to continue without some sort of punishment, chatisement. Just because the immigrants need work does not give them the freedom to break the law.

Well this was proposed , but people just kept shouting amnest y

Have them pay a fine. Heck I dont have a problem with 200 hours community service. At some point though we got to think how far we want this pinishiment to go? My friend hired an illegal and her son to fix her House after the hurricane. What is going to be her punishiment. I get to eat cheap produce and get Chicken at great prices because we have illegals doing Cheap labor. What is my punishiment? The American Economy needed alot of these illegals to keep the Economy humming. What will be ourt collective punishiment. I guess what I am saying is that in the end this punishiment doesnt need to get out of hand

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Conquerors don’t sneak; generally they come thundering across the border with weapons out.

Immigrants of any kind are not interested in conquest; they aren’t trying to make the land a new province of their home country. And with the birth rate in the US, immigration is the only thing keeping our population constant or growing. Additionally, immigrants are extremely important to the labor pool – remember, when we didn’t have enough, we enslaved people to fill it!

But the illegals don’t sneak across the border. They have their own gangs to help get them across, which are much more powerful than the Border Patrol.

 

[vern_humphrey]

But the illegals don’t sneak across the border. They have their own gangs to help get them across, which are much more powerful than the Border Patrol.

Those aren’t the illegals gang – they’re gangs who prey on illegals. And who also smuggle in drugs and who may assist terrorists.

And they are a major reason why the border needs to be sealed.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I guess what I am saying is that in the end this punishiment doesnt need to get out of hand

Yes. I think there should be severe punishment for terrorists and for violent criminals who cross the border illegally. But for the others I think we need to start cleaning out the exploitation and poor economies in some of those countries as well as opening up everyone’s borders in terms of labour but cooperating on really good perimeter control in terms of defence polilcy and making NAFTA CAFTA and so on really work.

 

[lsusportsfan]

Um… is Canada not your largest trading partner? What? You don’t luv us anymore?

:crying:

:yup: What does that look like?

I love our our brothers and Sisters to the North. I guess I am sort of including yall in ths “we” stuff. Especially since yall are undr Nafta

What it will look like is that we must really start focusing to trade between Mexico and down South. FOrmulate policies that are fair and that will help those Econmies grow. If that happened we sould all be a lot better off.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I love our our brothers and Sisters to the North. I guess I am sort of including yall in ths “we” stuff.

Me too. Luvallyall downsouth. :extrahappy:

 

[vern_humphrey]

I love our our brothers and Sisters to the North. I guess I am sort of including yall in ths “we” stuff. Especially since yall are undr Nafta

What it will look like is that we must really start focusing to trade between Mexico and down South. FOrmulate policies that are fair and that will help those Econmies grow. If that happened we sould all be a lot better off.

It isn’t our policies that keep Latin America poor. It’s their home-grown dictatorships.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

It isn’t our policies that keep Latin America poor. It’s their home-grown dictatorships.

True. But their home-grown dictators – directly or indirectly – are having a continued adverse impact on US economy, criminal justice system, defence, and so on.

Identifying who is at fault is one thing, but if we want to turn this thing around then we have to act. We have to stop expecting this thing to turn around on an ineffectual border control policy.

That was why I brought up Chavez. These home-grown dictatorships have not grown smaller. They have grown global (with al Queda), very immediately present, and very dangerous (El Shukri).

edit: And that is why I asked you for your ideas on how we can deal with these dictatorships, improve conditions in those oppressed and very poor countries, and get serious about perimeter control. It’s the carrot and the stick. We’ve been talking about the stick end, but are not clear yet about the carrot. What does the carrot look like? And when are we going to bring it into the election arenas?

 

[vern_humphrey]

True. But their home-grown dictators – directly or indirectly – are having a continued adverse impact on US economy, criminal justice system, defence, and so on.

Identifying who is at fault is one thing, but if we want to turn this thing around then we have to act. We have to stop expecting this thing to turn around on an ineffectual border control policy.

That was why I brought up Chavez. These home-grown dictatorships have not grown smaller. They have grown global (with al Queda), very immediately present, and very dangerous (El Shukri).

edit: And that is why I asked you for your ideas on how we can deal with these dictatorships, improve conditions in those oppressed and very poor countries, and get serious about perimeter control. It’s the carrot and the stick. We’ve been talking about the stick end, but are not clear yet about the carrot. What does the carrot look like? And when are we going to bring it into the election arenas?

First of all, we can stop being the relief valve for these dictators. Emma Lazerus was wrong – immigrants are usually the most active and ambitious. If they stayed home, their energies might be directed to improving their own countries.

Secondly, free trade has a democratizing effect – as people see the possibility of a better life, they want more.

Finally, remember, in the end dictators rule by force, and must be removed by the same means.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

First of all, we can stop being the relief valve for these dictators.

OK. I had to think about this for half a second. But I understand what you are saying.

In terms of getting that message across however I think rapprochement should be vigorous, quick, and effective with the illegal population already here.

Not only in terms of providing a very highly visible contrast with their lives and the lives of those ‘left behind,’ but also in terms of giving them a clear choice.

If they want pardon, then they have to step up to that pardon with integrity. It should not come free. Those folks have to decide if they are Americans or if they are migrant workers whose home is still back there under the dictators. If they don’t want to choose – and in concrete terms – then back they go.

(Hey and for those folks that think this is harsh – what do you think the Mexican government expects from its unpatriatized residents? Anything different? Um… no.)

But this approach also works with those who have not yet crossed the border illegally. It has to be clear to them that the open-border (closed perimeter) goodies come alongside the overthrowing of those dictatorships and with reform of those economies.

If they want the goodies, then they have to earn them. They have to be part of the solution. They have to take ownership of their part in creating conditions where all the Americas can collaborate in a prosperous, just, and safe continental community.

This may require some outreach on our part: some cross-border educational programs.
vern humphrey:

Finally, remember, in the end dictators rule by force, and must be removed by the same means.

Yes. And to do that, the public needs to be informed which they are not. We don’t want another Sandalista campaign bellowing “Until the last Marine goes home!”

So far we are talking about different segments of our societies who are simply unaware of the cost of continuing the way we have been going.

So what does removal by force look like? And what are the support structures which will obstruct that or assist that?

 

[vern_humphrey]

OK. I had to think about this for half a second. But I understand what you are saying.

In terms of getting that message across however I think rapprochement should be vigorous, quick, and effective with the illegal population already here.

“Rapprocment” usually means arriving at a friendly settlement with another government. That hasn’t solved the problem.

Not only in terms of providing a very highly visible contrast with their lives and the lives of those ‘left behind,’ but also in terms of giving them a clear choice.

If they want pardon, then they have to step up to that pardon with integrity. It should not come free. Those folks have to decide if they are Americans or if they are migrant workers whose home is still back there under the dictators. If they don’t want to choose – and in concrete terms – then back they go.

(Hey and for those folks that think this is harsh – what do you think the Mexican government expects from its unpatriatized residents? Anything different? Um… no.)

But that still doesn’t solve the problem.

But this approach also works with those who have not yet crossed the border illegally. It has to be clear to them that the open-border (closed perimeter) goodies come alongside the overthrowing of those dictatorships and with reform of those economies.

If they want the goodies, then they have to earn them. They have to be part of the solution. They have to take ownership of their part in creating conditions where all the Americas can collaborate in a prosperous, just, and safe continental community.

This may require some outreach on our part: some cross-border educational programs.

That’s what Special Forces is for.

Yes. And to do that, the public needs to be informed which they are not. We don’t want another Sandalista campaign bellowing “Until the last Marine goes home!”

So far we are talking about different segments of our societies who are simply unaware of the cost of continuing the way we have been going.

So what does removal by force look like? And what are the support structures which will obstruct that or assist that?

It looks like the US training and equipping and aiding the forces of democracy in Latin America.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

“Rapprocment” usually means arriving at a friendly settlement with another government. That hasn’t solved the problem.

True. I meant creating an alliance with the illegal population already here, but chose the wrong word. My bad.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We should be making as many genuine friends as we can while being crystal clear about who our enemies are in the WOT. But we definitely do not need to be making enemies out of potential friends. Some of the non-violent illegals already in the US are potential friends imho.
vern humphrey:

But that still doesn’t solve the problem.

I don’t think any one measure will solve the problem because the problems are multilateral.
vern humphrey:

That’s what Special Forces is for.

How do we support a Special Ops in Latin America this time?
vern humphrey:

It looks like the US training and equipping and aiding the forces of democracy in Latin America.

I am not informed on this. Can you help me? Do you not have similar programs already in place? What do you have in place already? What would you remove? What would you add? What would you create from scratch?

Thanks.

 

[vern_humphrey]

True. I meant creating an alliance with the illegal population already here, but chose the wrong word. My bad.

If the illegals become citizens, they already owe us their unequivocal loyalty, as all citizens do.

If they do not become citizens and do not give their loyalty to the United States, we can never have an alliance with them!!

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We should be making as many genuine friends as we can while being crystal clear about who our enemies are in the WOT. But we definitely do not need to be making enemies out of potential friends. Some of the non-violent illegals already in the US are potential friends imho.

The problem is, they’re** illegals**. We don’t know who they are or what they are.

I don’t think any one measure will solve the problem because the problems are multilateral.

No one says a single act will solve anything – but a stable, democratic nation is a pre-requisite to freedom and prosperity.

How do we support a Special Ops in Latin America this time?

The way we’ve always supported it – but on a larger scale.

I am not informed on this. Can you help me? Do you not have similar programs already in place? What do you have in place already? What would you remove? What would you add? What would you create from scratch?

Thanks.

We have various operations going on in different countries – including intensive anti-drug operations which can form the basis of expanded specops.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

If the illegals become citizens, they already owe us their unequivocal loyalty, as all citizens do.

Yes.
vern humphrey:

If they do not become citizens and do not give their loyalty to the United States, we can never have an alliance with them!!

Correct.
vern humphrey:

The problem is, they’re** illegals**. We don’t know who they are or what they are.

They should identify themselves to us within a set time period. Those who don’t: back they go.
vern humphrey:

No one says a single act will solve anything – but a stable, democratic nation is a pre-requisite to freedom and prosperity.

No disagreement from me there.
vern humphrey:

We have various operations going on in different countries – including intensive anti-drug operations which can form the basis of expanded specops.

Thanks for this.

 

[lsusportsfan]

I interrupt this thread to bring in some Economic News

Unemployment is at like 4.4 percent according to the figures we are seeing. I am just curious if all these folks get deported or we dont find a way to regularlize thier Status who the heck is going to do the work