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ValiantDomain
Guest
Was Jesus created or uncreated? I’ve read both.
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Verita
Guest
Jesus is “Begotten not made.”
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mchale
Guest
Jesus, the incarnation of the Son, had two natures, one fully human and the other fully divine. As a fully human person, his human nature and his physical body were created. As God, he is eternal and is not a created being.
At least, that is how I understand it, but I of course am ready to be corrected.
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Bill
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ValiantDomain
Guest
In Colossians, St. Paul writes:
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation (1:15)
It’s my understanding that “firstborn” does not refer to his being created but to his pre-eminent nature.
Also, I have it heard it stated that if Jesus created all things, how can he, himself, be created?
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation (1:15)
It’s my understanding that “firstborn” does not refer to his being created but to his pre-eminent nature.
Also, I have it heard it stated that if Jesus created all things, how can he, himself, be created?
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heisenburg
Guest
There are actually two things to consider with this…
First and formost… The trinity always was… There is no change in the nature of God Pre and Post 33 AD
As I beleive i heard it… imagine time is like a stream, Suppose god put his feet in the stream (representing christ). A fish traveling down the stream, but not yet reaching Gods feet, would have no understanding of the feet, and would ahve no knowledge, once the fish gets to the foot, his understanding of the nature of things in the stream completely change. Now that he has passed the foot, he must incorporate that into his understanding.
from Gods POV, he hasnt changed, his foot was in it before the fish, and it was still in it after the fish. So, to him, it jsut always was.
I know it is realy dummied down and probably confusing, but you get the point i hope…
Understanding Jesus as being created means you are saying christ is actualy a seperate being and entity from God, and that jesus is a created creature like the angels (and us) But jesus is God. he is part of the three persons in one. this means like God the Father… he just is, always was,and always will be
Cheers
- Since Christ is part of the holy trinity, he is, like God th Father, outside of time.
- We cannot look at how god interacts with us based on OUR understanding of time. this can cause confusion (like how can Christ be ‘born’ if he ‘Always was’
First and formost… The trinity always was… There is no change in the nature of God Pre and Post 33 AD
As I beleive i heard it… imagine time is like a stream, Suppose god put his feet in the stream (representing christ). A fish traveling down the stream, but not yet reaching Gods feet, would have no understanding of the feet, and would ahve no knowledge, once the fish gets to the foot, his understanding of the nature of things in the stream completely change. Now that he has passed the foot, he must incorporate that into his understanding.
from Gods POV, he hasnt changed, his foot was in it before the fish, and it was still in it after the fish. So, to him, it jsut always was.
I know it is realy dummied down and probably confusing, but you get the point i hope…
Understanding Jesus as being created means you are saying christ is actualy a seperate being and entity from God, and that jesus is a created creature like the angels (and us) But jesus is God. he is part of the three persons in one. this means like God the Father… he just is, always was,and always will be
Cheers
S
SusanG
Guest
Reference John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God”
Continuing on you see that “the Word” is Christ.
So, uncreated.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God”
Continuing on you see that “the Word” is Christ.
So, uncreated.
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drforjc
Guest
mchale has the correct answer.
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fineca
Guest
Proverbs 8:22-31
“22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men.”
In this passage Wisdom speaks, and since Christ as the Son/Word is the personal Wisdom of God, it is generally thought that in this passage Christ who was with the Father when everything was created…but in 8:22 he says: the LORD created me … this is great for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but how do we solve it since we believe Christ is uncreated?
Thanks
E**
“22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men.”
In this passage Wisdom speaks, and since Christ as the Son/Word is the personal Wisdom of God, it is generally thought that in this passage Christ who was with the Father when everything was created…but in 8:22 he says: the LORD created me … this is great for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but how do we solve it since we believe Christ is uncreated?
Thanks
E**
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buffalo
Guest
III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN
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The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.
During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.
[465](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/465.htm’) The first heresies denied not so much Christ’s divinity as his true humanity (Gnostic Docetism). From apostolic times the Christian faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God’s Son “come in the flesh”.87 But already in the third century, the Church in a council at Antioch had to affirm against Paul of Samosata that Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The first ecumenical council of Nicaea in 325 confessed in its Creed that the Son of God is “begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father”, and condemned Arius, who had affirmed that the Son of God “came to be from things that were not” and that he was “from another substance” than that of the Father.88
[464](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/464.htm’) The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.
[465](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/465.htm’) The first heresies denied not so much Christ’s divinity as his true humanity (Gnostic Docetism). From apostolic times the Christian faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God’s Son “come in the flesh”.87 But already in the third century, the Church in a council at Antioch had to affirm against Paul of Samosata that Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The first ecumenical council of Nicaea in 325 confessed in its Creed that the Son of God is “begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father”, and condemned Arius, who had affirmed that the Son of God “came to be from things that were not” and that he was “from another substance” than that of the Father.88
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VociMike
Guest
My answer – Jesus is begotten, not made (created). Jesus means the entire Person of Jesus, and that includes His human nature. Jesus is simply not Jesus without His human nature. Therefore, His human nature is also begotten, not made (though ours is).
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Your position contradicts the Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus, 431) which said that ‘the Word became flesh.’ It is not true that the Word and the flesh (human nature) were always one, nor has the human nature of Christ existed for all Eternity.
Christ is like us in all things but sin. Therefore, his human nature is also a created thing.
Your position is contrary to the Faith.
Ron
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VociMike
Guest
First, rather than tossing around accusations of heresy right out of the starting gate, I’m hoping we can actually explore this question.
Does “the Word became flesh” mean “took on human nature” or does it mean “took on an earthly body”? When you can answer that question authoritatively we can move on. Considering that the complete phrase is “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us,” the latter explanation seems quite defensible.
As I said, the creed (from the council of Nicea) says that Jesus Christ is eternally begotten of the Father. Doesn’t say anything about the Word. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. The obvious conclusion is that Jesus’ humanity is also eternally begotten of the Father. If not, then how can Jesus be eternally begotten of the Father as the council stated?
I could be wrong about this – I don’t claim to be a world-class theologian. But convince me, don’t just tell me I’m a heretic.
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Ghosty
Guest
I recommend reading the Council of Ephesus, as it deals explicitely with this issue. It’s very clear that the Son received the human nature from Mary, and not just a body. In fact, theologically speaking a human body is not of the human nature in itself; both a soul and body are required for the human nature, which means that Christ also has a soul just like ours in terms of nature.
Peace and God bless!
Peace and God bless!
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