Created to be doomed

[christmary4ever]

had a an intersting discussion with a fellowman. He claims biblically that some persons
are created by God to play a villain in His purpose and afterwards condemn him to Hell.
Such person aaccording to my buddy, will never be save because He or she is already ordained for damnation. My buddy cites the ex of Pharoah whose heart God Hardened
until He suffered untold miseries. What do you all think of this.

 

[Greg57]

had a an intersting discussion with a fellowman. He claims biblically that some persons
are created by God to play a villain in His purpose and afterwards condemn him to Hell.
Such person aaccording to my buddy, will never be save because He or she is already ordained for damnation. My buddy cites the ex of Pharoah whose heart God Hardened
until He suffered untold miseries. What do you all think of this.

I think it’s pretty dumb. Your friend’s remark makes God no better than the ancient Greek pantheon of gods, who toyed and played with the frailties of humankind. Human beings were play toys of the gods, and your friend seems to believe that our God is the same. The Pharaoh’s heart was hardened because of his rejection of the works of God through Moses. Pharaohs believed that they themselves were gods, and once that is part of the ego, it’s quite difficult to let go.

 

[mark_a]

had a an intersting discussion with a fellowman. He claims biblically that some persons
are created by God to play a villain in His purpose and afterwards condemn him to Hell.
Such person aaccording to my buddy, will never be save because He or she is already ordained for damnation. My buddy cites the ex of Pharoah whose heart God Hardened
until He suffered untold miseries. What do you all think of this.

In the words of our deceased priest, it’s the most cruel doctrine ever invented by man.

 

[markelmore]

Could it not be argued that Judas was condemned? Jesus knew that Judas would betray him (“do what you must do”) and said that there would be no redemption for him (“It would be better if he had not been born”).

 

[Vince1022]

had a an intersting discussion with a fellowman. He claims biblically that some persons
are created by God to play a villain in His purpose and afterwards condemn him to Hell.
Such person aaccording to my buddy, will never be save because He or she is already ordained for damnation. My buddy cites the ex of Pharoah whose heart God Hardened
until He suffered untold miseries. What do you all think of this.

God gave all humans free will.

 

[NoelFitz]

This is a great thread facing up to a tough question.

Basically God is almighty and gets His way.

God knows when he makes us whether we will end up in heaven for all eternity or not.

I have raised the issue of people being damned at some recent conferences and I heard waffle about* metaphors.*

Incidentally, Greg57, in Job God treated Job as a plaything.

Judas fulfilled God’s plan and did what had been foretold.

 

[Pax]

Could it not be argued that Judas was condemned? Jesus knew that Judas would betray him (“do what you must do”) and said that there would be no redemption for him (“It would be better if he had not been born”).

Judas was not predestined to condemnation. Judas had free will. Judas “became” a traitor(see Luke 6:16). Judas was not condemned from the get go.

I’ve done an extensive amount of scriptural research on Judas and have found him to be an interesting case study that shoots down both OSAS and double predestination. If you’re interested, I can post it. It will take perhaps two posts because of the length.

God bless.

 

[Christ_is_love]

Pax, i would like to read it.

And people lets not forget here, Judas hung himself. I believe he asked for forgiveness, knowing he had condemned Christ to death, hence attempting to return the peices of Silver…

 

[NoelFitz]

Pax
Thank you for your reply.I read:

16 “Friends, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit through David foretold concerning Judas, who became a guide for those who arrested Jesus

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ac 1:16.

The Scripture had to be fulfilled and Judas played his role in that fulfillment.

God who is almighty could have prevented the betrayal if He wanted to.

 

[Cruxis117]

Judas was not predestined to condemnation. Judas had free will. Judas “became” a traitor(see Luke 6:16). Judas was not condemned from the get go.

I’ve done an extensive amount of scriptural research on Judas and have found him to be an interesting case study that shoots down both OSAS and double predestination. If you’re interested, I can post it. It will take perhaps two posts because of the length.

God bless.

I’m rather interested!

 

[Pax]

Some of the material on Judas is a little off topic for the thread but here goes:

The typical argument presented to me concerning Judas by non-Catholic Christians asserts that Judas was not a believer.

Let’s see what scripture says about Judas.

John 17:12 which says “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of **them **is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has **given **them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. It is for this reason that the “repentant sinner that is rejoiced over in heaven is compared to a lost sheep.” It is for this reason that “if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

And make no mistake about Judas and his position as an apostle. Judas was one of those that believed at the marriage feast of Cana[Jn 2:11]. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God[Matt 16:15-18]. Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit[Matt 6:8-13, Mark 3:14-19 and Mark 6:13]. Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas believed and is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.

Judas is even referred to as “elect.”(Gk,eklegomai - Strong’s word # 1586 – Lk 6:13, Jn 6:70; cf. Mk 13:20, Jn 13:18, 15:16,19, Acts 1:2), and then falls away and is damned.

In Matthew 14 we are told that Jesus tells the disciples[that is the twelve] to get into the boat and to cross to the other side of the sea. Jesus then walks on the water and Peter joins him and begins to sink beneath the waves as his faith falters. Jesus then helps Peter stay afloat and then they both get back into the boat. Once in the boat scripture tells us the following:

Matthew 14:33

“And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”

Judas worshiped Jesus and declared his faith by stating that Jesus was truly the son of God. Judas was a believer but he “became” a betrayer.[Luke 6:16]
In Matthew 19:28 we also read this: "

Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Obviously at that point in time, Judas was among the twelve and was going to be sitting on a throne with the rest of the twelve in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In the end that was not to be…Judas betrayed Jesus.

cont. on next post:

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post:

Jesus calls the apostles his friends. This includes Judas. He even individually refers to Judas as “friend” at the betrayal. Likewise we read this in Jn 13:18 in reference to Judas:

Jesus says:

“I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’”

This reference to the fulfillment of scripture leads us to Psalm 41:9 which says:

“Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.”

Judas is referred to as a bosom friend. Judas “had” equal standing with the apostles which he traded for thirty pieces of silver.

Once Judas betrayed, Jesus, he still could have properly repented and been restored to salvation. Unfortunately, even though Judas repented before the chief priest and the elders in returning the thirty pieces of silver, he did not have a godly grief of repentance. His repentance was the “worldly repentance” that Paul says “leads to death as opposed to a godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”[See 2 Cor 7:10]” This is the difference between the repentance of Peter after denying Jesus and the worldly repentance of Judas after the betrayal. Jesus even tells Peter that Satan wished to sift him like wheat but that He[Jesus] had prayed for him so that Peter’s “faith would not fail” and that when He[Peter] turned back to Jesus, that he was to strengthen his brothers.[See Luke 22:32] Peter and Judas both had free will and made their choices. God’s grace was there for them. Peter repented with a godly grief, Judas repented with a worldly grief.

Both Peter and Judas were believers, both had cast out demons and healed the sick by way of the Holy Spirit, and both were given power to bind and loose. Moreover, both were under the protection of Jesus and were given to Jesus by the Father. Neither Peter nor Judas was snatched from the hand of Jesus or the Father. Peter denied Jesus and temporarily chose to leave that protection, but he freely repented with a godly grief, whereas Judas freely chose to betray Jesus and in his own weakness chose a worldly grief that leads to death.

–Scripture indicates that Judas was an apostle with all of the blessings and grace granted to them until the discourse on the bread of life at the end of John 6. Judas apparently didn’t believe that Jesus would give us his body and blood as true food and true drink. If this makes Judas a false believer, then every non-Catholic that does not believe that Jesus gives us his body as true food and his blood as true drink as Catholics do is also a “false believer.” If not, then Judas was just as much a true a believer as all non-Catholics that do not believe the words of Jesus concerning his body and blood as true food and true drink. You can’t have it both ways.

–After this Jesus and the disciples went to Jerusalem for the Passover.

*** Please note that scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:

"

…Judas Iscariot,… became a traitor."

Judas was not always a traitor and he was not always a son of perdition. He instead “became” a traitor and the son of perdition(i.e. a wicked man).

Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:

–Luke 22:1-6
“Now the feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death; for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve; he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and engaged to give him money. So he agreed, and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of the multitude.”

In Acts 1:24-25 when the Church prepared to choose a replacement for Judas Peter says the following:

"And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”

Judas “turned aside” from that which was given him by God. Judas turned away from the gifts God gave to him through Jesus. Think about that…he turned away from the gift of salvation to go to his own place. This is exactly what each and everyone of us is “free” to do. OSAS is simply a false doctrine.

 

[tobbias88]

It’s a double whammy… aka double jeopardy or double - predestination.

Old Calvin come up with the idea that God choses whom will be saved but He also choses whom will be damned. So either way you have no say in the matter; rather like lab rats in a cage. So you could be saved and your wife (too bad) or even your son (oh no) are damned.

Despite turning traditional Christian doctrine on its head, people thought this made sense & went along with it. Today Calvinists and many Presbyterians still hold this to be true,
Anyway it goes without saying that all Papists were damned from birth so they really didn’t count among the elect. Go figure!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

Pax
Thank you for your reply.I read:

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ac 1:16.

The Scripture had to be fulfilled and Judas played his role in that fulfillment.

God who is almighty could have prevented the betrayal if He wanted to.

God could have prevented the betrayal, does not mean that God pre-ordained Judas to do it.

Judas freely chose to take part in the betrayal of Jesus. If Judas had refused to turn Him over, Jesus would have died some other way.

But no one held Judas’ hand to the fire.

 

[NoelFitz]

NW,

Thanks for your reply.

Satan did harden Judas’ heart.

Also there was no need for Jesus to die.

.

 

[cassini]

NW,

Thanks for your reply.

Satan did harden Judas’ heart.

Also there was no need for Jesus to die.

.

Very interesting thread lads. When you read all the above posts and consider that Judas was not a non-believer in Christ, did not reject Him, yes had a reason to betray Him that he must have considered a good reason - was crucially instrumental in fulfilling the prophesies that God (Jesus ) desired to redeem us from Satan, that is the perfect sacrifice, suffering and death, the only sacrifice that could have redeemed mankind - regretted his part - committed suicide out of remorse, that is, how bad he felt for betraying the perfect man and friend Christ. Poor Judas, God have mercy on him. Come to think of it, is there any tradition that prayed for Judas’s soul?
You know what, do not be surprised if Christ’s mercy extended to Judas. Whatever, the Lord is infinitely just, it is we that cannot understand the whys, why nots, ifs, buts, could bes, etc., of Him as the Lord demonstrated in the Book of Job. Jesus have mercy on us all.

 

[Pax]

Very interesting thread lads. When you read all the above posts and consider that Judas was not a non-believer in Christ, did not reject Him, yes had a reason to betray Him that he must have considered a good reason - was crucially instrumental in fulfilling the prophesies that God (Jesus ) desired to redeem us from Satan, that is the perfect sacrifice, suffering and death, the only sacrifice that could have redeemed mankind - regretted his part - committed suicide out of remorse, that is, how bad he felt for betraying the perfect man and friend Christ. Poor Judas, God have mercy on him. Come to think of it, is there any tradition that prayed for Judas’s soul?
You know what, do not be surprised if Christ’s mercy extended to Judas. Whatever, the Lord is infinitely just, it is we that cannot understand the whys, why nots, ifs, buts, could bes, etc., of Him as the Lord demonstrated in the Book of Job. Jesus have mercy on us all.

It is true that there is no certainty as to what became of Judas in eternity. On the other hand, however, scripture does not make it look very promising.

 

[NotWorthy]

It is true that there is no certainty as to what became of Judas in eternity. On the other hand, however, scripture does not make it look very promising.

I agree. If I were a betting man, I don’t think I’d be dropping a ten on “Judas in Heaven”.

He could have repented after betraying Jesus, but he succumbed to despair in committing suicide.

 

[markelmore]

Thanks Pax, Your explanation helped a lot. I may have lead the thread off topic a bit. I may find / start a thread on Judas because there is more about him I would like to explore.

On predestination, I found the following verses. It sounds like you can be cursed by the actions of your ancestors.

I will rise up against them,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors, her offspring and descendants,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 14:22

For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed ; the offspring of the wicked will perish. Psalms 37:28

 

[ckempston]

Feel free to provide an interpretation of this passage:

Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?