Created to be doomed

[NotWorthy]

Thanks Pax, Your explanation helped a lot. I may have lead the thread off topic a bit. I may find / start a thread on Judas because there is more about him I would like to explore.

On predestination, I found the following verses. It sounds like you can be cursed by the actions of your ancestors.

I will rise up against them,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors, her offspring and descendants,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 14:22

For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed ; the offspring of the wicked will perish. Psalms 37:28

If you read Ezekiel, you’ll find that man is punished for his sins, not his ancestors.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Freewill does nothing to address the “unfairness” of predestination. In our human condition, plagued by ignorance and stupidity, while we were blind and led astray by liars, God gave us a choice… How fair is that?

I no longer believe as I was raised that Hell is a place of eternal torment. Biblically, Hell is just the grave and in the end, the grave, hades, itself is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Eternal life is given only to those whom are saved by Jesus. Jesus’ warning about Hell were parables, not to be taken literally. If you take them literally, then Hell, Gehenna, is the public garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem.

God makes some people for glory and others for destruction. Those made for destruction are destroyed, no more. No eternal torture. If you love God then you are saved. If you don’t love God, then you probably don’t care that you have no eternity with God, aside from not relishing the thought that you will cease to exist.

 

[ckempston]

Freewill does nothing to address the “unfairness” of predestination. In our human condition, plagued by ignorance and stupidity, while we were blind and led astray by liars, God gave us a choice… How fair is that?

I no longer believe as I was raised that Hell is a place of eternal torment. Biblically, Hell is just the grave and in the end, the grave, hades, itself is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Eternal life is given only to those whom are saved by Jesus. Jesus’ warning about Hell were parables, not to be taken literally. If you take them literally, then Hell, Gehenna, is the public garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem.

God makes some people for glory and others for destruction. Those made for destruction are destroyed, no more. No eternal torture. If you love God then you are saved. If you don’t love God, then you probably don’t care that you have no eternity with God, aside from not relishing the thought that you will cease to exist.

You’re not alone. At the very least, those who are not redeemed will be annihilated (unmade) at the second death. Some punishment seems to be indicated after death, but it is in proportion to your sin and righteousness, and it is not eternal. This idea comes from the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. The soul is not immortal. God is the only one who is immortal (1 Tim 6:16). The soul only “exists” so long as the Spirit of God (breath of life) is in the flesh of man - man IS a soul, he does not possess a soul (Genesis 2:7).

 

[dtg]

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2: 3,4 NASB

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The Bible in a Verse

But now once at the conclusion of the ages Jesus has
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9: 26b

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2: 3,4 NASB

I believe most biblical disputes relate to how many prejudices and how much disbelief someone brings to the Bible. But, there are some disputes where I think both sides have some good reasons for their positions.

I think there’s some question as to what “all” means. Does “all” mean every individual. Or, does it mean the rich and the poor, the smart and the dumb, jew and gentile, kings (v2) and peasants… In what manner did Jesus give himself as ransom for all (v6)? Are you an universalist?

 

[Pax]

Feel free to provide an interpretation of this passage:

Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

ckempston in Christ,

Okay…I’ll give it a shot.

All are in Adam and thus suffer from original sin and need to be saved. God desires that all men be saved, but not all men are saved. God extends his mercy and grace to all, but especially to his elect to whom he extends all that is needed for their salvation. God bears with great patience the objects of his wrath. That is…God is patient with those that reject him and his mercy. Those are the object of his wrath and are prepared for destruction.

The verse does not indicate that God is responsible for the damnation of the vessels of wrath. Those individuals freely reject God’s mercy and grace. Notice that the verse begins with the phrase “What if God…” The point Paul is making in the passage is that no one can complain against God and how they are made(see Rom 9:17-21). Paul even cites Pharaoh as an example and the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart.

In Exodus it is quite clear that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. It is also quite clear in Exodus that Pharaoh also hardened his own heart. The interplay of this hardening by God and by Pharaoh himself is quite revealing. It shows that there is considerable complexity in how God works and how man reacts. God did certain things and Pharaoh reacted by hardening his heart. God’s actions hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Now, if God’s actions are good and those good actions hardened Pharaoh’s heart, then it is clearly Pharaoh’s fault. If God simply hardened Pharaoh’s heart against Pharaoh’s will, then we would see something that might fit the definition of predestination to damnation. That, however, is not the case.

We can see this truth by way other Egyptians reacted to the plagues sent by God in the exact opposite fashion from Pharaoh. This is illustrated by the mixed multitude of non-Israelites that left with Moses(see Exodus 12:36-38). Pharaoh reacted badly to the power and miraculous signs brought by God against him. These signs would bring most people to their knees and to repentance. This, however, did not happen with Pharaoh for he hardened his heart. Pharaoh thought himself to be a god, and would rather let his entire people suffer through numerous plagues than to abandon his pride and love of self.

Pharaoh made himself a vessel of wrath even though God’s good actions can be seen as having a cause and effect connection. The early Church historian, Origen, created an analogy to explain this kind of interplay that went something like this:

“The sun falls on wet clay and dries it. When the clay dries it hardens and cracks. The sun also falls on wax and warms it. When the wax is warmed it softens.”

Think of the unsaved as those that react as Pharaoh did and harden their hearts. There is a warning in Hebrews where it says:

Hebrews 3:7-8
“Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts”

The author goes on to say:

Hebrews 3:13-14
But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be **hardened **by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end,

This last passage shows that we can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, and it goes on to point out that “we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.”

When examined within the total context of the scriptures that properly apply to Romans 9:22, it seems pretty clear that the text is not saying anything about God depriving people of his mercy and damning them against their own will and desires. It is instead something considerably more complex and involves man and his free will choices. Otherwise, God would be unjust and man would have little or no responsibility for his actions. Likewise, the scriptural warnings “not to harden our hearts” would be superfluous platitudes without real meaning or consequence.

I hope this helps.

 

[Vince1022]

God makes some people for glory and others for destruction.

Not according to the Catholic understanding. God gave everyone free will. Everyone has the possibility of salvation.

 

[dtg]

I believe most biblical disputes relate to how many prejudices and how much disbelief someone brings to the Bible. But, there are some disputes where I think both sides have some good reasons for their positions.

I think there’s some question as to what “all” means. Does “all” mean every individual. Or, does it mean the rich and the poor, the smart and the dumb, jew and gentile, kings (v2) and peasants… In what manner did Jesus give himself as ransom for all (v6)? Are you an universalist?

I do not believe in pre-destination to damnation, nor do I expect universalism. “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?” Ezekiel 18: 23 NASB I would say, a ransom [available] to all, as in; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 5: 18 NASB

 

[ckempston]

ckempston in Christ,

Okay…I’ll give it a shot.
.

Pax, thanks for the reply. In what way would you say then that they are “prepared” for destruction? And how does this square with the idea that they have a choice in the matter? When I “prepare” a meal to be eaten, it doesn’t get to choose whether anybody actually eats it.

 

[Pax]

Pax, thanks for the reply. In what way would you say then that they are “prepared” for destruction? And how does this square with the idea that they have a choice in the matter? When I “prepare” a meal to be eaten, it doesn’t get to choose whether anybody actually eats it.

ckempston in Christ,

It seems that the preparation would be two fold.

The most obvious preparation would be in terms of the punishment that is accumulating against them in terms of this life and the next.

The second preparation involves God’s immediate abandonment of those in rebellion. His protection and divine providence is not with them and they are allowed to simply follow the flesh which is to live in darkness. The result of this generally means furthering the distance between themselves and God. In leaving the rebellious to their own devices, God is thus preparing them for their ultimate destruction.

Scripture puts it this way:

Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or even thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened.

There are many other like verses of scripture that address this point as well, but I hope that this gives a start in the right direction.

God bless.