Creating beings that will suffer eternally

[carn]

So its morning of day 6 and God says:
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”

So God knows beforehand that some will reject him and suffer eternally. Some will not reject him and will experience eternal happiness. While it is their own choice, nontheless that will be the result.

Considering that God cannot do something evil, why wasn’t the creating men, some of them destined to suffer eternally and some destined for eternal happiness, evil?

Why is it good?

The problem is, non-existance is preferable a lot over eternal suffering.

 

[bmullins]

God knows each person fully and intimately at the moment that he decided to create them. Unlike we humans who can only know a person from the moment they come into our lives, and only then begin to grow affinity to them for who they turn out to be, God has already experience their entire life and knows exactly who they are… what their passions are, and will be, and how beautiful that person hast the potential to be.

I have a daughter. Could I look at her in 20 years after she has done something horrible and say, I wish I could back and not have her? No. I love her too much for that. God loves us too much to say no I’m not going to give you the chance to live, whether or not you decide to spend eternity with me or away from me.

 

[edward_george]

The key here is that we were given free will. Without freedom, we could not love God, nor could we turn against Him, since love must be given freely–robots cannot love. God loved us not only enough to create us, but to give us the freedom to choose Him–knowing full well that His love for us could be rejected. Same with us when we show love, it can be accepted or rejected, but it is far better to show love than not. God’s love is creative; it is far better that He show us His love in creating us than never having created us at all. And we are not destined for eternal suffering if we have turned away from His love–for He entered into human history, taking flesh in the created humanity of Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man. He died, publicly, brutally, in humiliation, to show the depths of His love. In doing this, He made death not a path to destruction, but the gateway to eternity with Him.

-ACEGC

 

[Robertanthony]

Hi Carn,
With our limited human intellect we can’t possibly understand God’s motives and plans for each of his action. You can’t put him on trial because he’s so far above us “as the heavens are above the earth”. I believe God appeals to the best part of us 24/7 for as many years as we live, he never throws in the towel before someone draws their last breath. He’ll gladly listen to the most hardened sinner if/when he/she asks for his mercy or help. It all comes down to choice, in our lives, we make minor choices and choices that will have pervasive and long-term effects for good or for bad. Free-will is not something to joke with, you literally choose your eternal, definite destiny. The main torment the damned will endure is being deprived of God’s presence, that alone is terrible. When I think about non-existence being preferable is when I’m in a negative state of mind, depressed, angry, anxious, overwhelmed or tired, or a combination of those.

 

[LPS]

Hi Carn. I believe that it is an act of love & compassion for those who hate God so much - who love evil and hate the Light - to allow them to be away from His presence. What kindness would it be to force them to be in His presence when they loathe Him and hate Him?

Think of what Love is, even within our own weak understanding - it simply can’t be forced. I can’t force someone to receive my love, nor force them to give theirs to me.

I don’t know that they will be in “torment” other than being with their own miserable selves and with the consequences of their choices.

 

[carn]

You can’t put him on trial because he’s so far above us “as the heavens are above the earth”.

I do not see as putting Him on trial by asking why his action was good, as this includes the assumption that it was good.

And when looking at these two options, i do not understand, why the latter is better:

-Not do anything

-Create X billion humans, Y billions will end up in heaven and Z billions will suffer eternally

I would not want to have children, if i knew all of them would be terribly suffering. In case some of them suffering and some not, i would opt for children, but solely because otherwise this world would be quickly empty and lifeless and i have an emotional attachment to thing continuing.

 

[Robertanthony]

non-existance is preferable a lot over eternal suffering.

Nobody will deny that for individual cases, even Jesus said that about Judas after he took his own life. Where would you set the cut-off point, let’s say of all humanity throughout the ages (for argument’s sake say 20 billion people) 10% were cast to hell for eternity, would you still think it would be a good thing for God not to have created human beings, thus you’d deprive 18 billion the joy of being with God for the 2 billion who’d have wanted nothing to do with him? When you say “good”, do you mean his intention or the way things have turned out?

 

[Robertanthony]

You know, my last post reminds me of the story in the Old Testament where Abraham is trying to keep Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction by pleading with the angel: if there are 20 righteous people in these cities, will they be spared etc. until he went down to 5-10 righteous people, of course there weren’t even that many. Again, out of the hypothetical 20 billion human beings who have ever lived since Adam, how many would have to be damned for you to consider God’s creation of humankind good? Would you call off your own wedding because your enemies would be excluded from it?

 

[jschutzm]

If he only created beings which would not reject him… would that be a “choice” then?

That would render freewill basically useless and God a tyrant. “Follow me and have life… or reject me and NEVER be created in the first place” – WOW!, that’s a nice choice. Isn’t this just a nicer way of saying: “Follow me or I’ll kill you!” - which is what most Dictators end up doing to their own people?
And to think that in this scenario, God is rendering his ‘final and particular judgements’ somewhat ahead of time. Before the person even had a ‘chance’ to make the decision… and I think you THEN have a perfect scenario for a mockery of Justice. Kinda of a variation of “guilty until proven innocent” - but in this case, “guilty before you do anything wrong”

WOULD God be doing the “MOST Good” if he violated Love, Freewill and Justice in the process?

I think the person who made the analogy to a child who breaks their parent’s hearts… is on to something.
Since I don’t have kids of my own… to me I see it this way:
I know my parents will die one day… and I will miss them dearly. Would I rather grow up an orphan and have never known them? NO - more the reason to cherish them each day.
OR
I know my pets will not live as long as me. One day I will bury them. I’ve already buried 3.
Do I wish that I had never adopted them from the SPCA, because even at the moment I adopted them… I’d know that one day, they’d die and leave me heart broken? - NO! they enriched my life in the meantime.

Remember… we don’t know God’s ultimate plan and how we all wittingly or unwittingly play into it.

 

[thenobes]

So its morning of day 6 and God says:
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”

So God knows beforehand that some will reject him and suffer eternally. Some will not reject him and will experience eternal happiness. While it is their own choice, nontheless that will be the result.

Considering that God cannot do something evil, why wasn’t the creating men, some of them destined to suffer eternally and some destined for eternal happiness, evil?

Why is it good?

The problem is, non-existance is preferable a lot over eternal suffering.

How do you know that?? What if “Will” to live is such a strong characteristic of the soul, that after being separated from unglorified body, a person who rejects pure self-sacrificing love (ie the presence of God), would still rather spend eternity in Hell than give up existence?

Jes sayin’.

peace
steve

 

[Robertanthony]

How do you know that?? What if “Will” to live is such a strong characteristic of the soul, that after being separated from unglorified body, a person who rejects pure self-sacrificing love (ie the presence of God), would still rather spend eternity in Hell than give up existence?

Jes sayin’.

peace
steve

Steve, I respectfully beg to differ, I think it’s pretty clear in the Scriptures that the damned long after death to be freed from their torment and misery. Peace to you.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

So its morning of day 6 and God says:
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”

So God knows beforehand that some will reject him and suffer eternally. Some will not reject him and will experience eternal happiness. While it is their own choice, nontheless that will be the result.

Considering that God cannot do something evil, why wasn’t the creating men, some of them destined to suffer eternally and some destined for eternal happiness, evil?

Why is it good?

The problem is, non-existance is preferable a lot over eternal suffering.

There is a very important part you’re missing and that is the souls in Hell would rather be there than with God since the souls in Hell have ZERO love and cannot stand to be in the presence of the Creator who is Love itself. God in His infinte Wisdom and Justice which is GOOD gives these souls what they wanted and that is an eternity without Him. There is no reason to feel sorry for these souls since their only wish is for you to join them in Hell.

"And behold they cried out, saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"–Matthew 8:28

These souls are allowed to exist because their existance gives witness to the reality that God is a fair and Just Judge. As one lost soul said to her friend when describing her particular Judgment:

"My soul showed herself to me as in a mirror; all the graces despised from my youth until my last NO to God. I felt myself like an assassin, to whom his dead victim is shown during his trial at court - Should I repent? Never! - Should I feel ashamed? Never!"

---

"However, I could not even stand before the eyes of God, rejected by me. There was only one thing for me: flight! As Cain fled from the dead body of Abel, so my soul rushed from the sight of horror."

---

"This was the particular judgment: the invisible Judge said: ‘Away from Me’. Then my soul, as a yellow brimstone shadow, fell headlong into the place of eternal torture."

You see souls that are obstinate in their lives of sin do the same thing around God on earth as they do when being judged by God after they die; they run from the very sight of Him.

 

[carn]

If he only created beings which would not reject him… would that be a “choice” then?

I am more concerned about the option to not create free willed beings at all. If nothing is created no one suffers.

 

[DCNBILL]

Who knows the “mind” of God? It is best put in the book of Job.

[BIBLEDRB]Job 38: 1-11[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[carn]

And when looking at these two options, i do not understand, why the latter is better:

-Not do anything

-Create X billion humans, Y billions will end up in heaven and Z billions will suffer eternally

I would not want to have children, if i knew all of them would be terribly suffering. In case some of them suffering and some not, i would opt for children, but solely because otherwise this world would be quickly empty and lifeless and i have an emotional attachment to thing continuing.

Maybe i am missing some implications of not doing anything. If parents know some of their children will suffer and therefore decide to have none, they give up hope. And giving up hope is not good. God deciding not to create because he knows some will suffer, might in some way submit to despair and that certainly is not an option for God.

But it is still different, the parents at best suspect that it will not be easy for some of their children, but the chance all their children will be well exist. God knows how many and which of his children will suffer.

 

[thenobes]

Steve, I respectfully beg to differ, I think it’s pretty clear in the Scriptures that the damned long after death to be freed from their torment and misery. Peace to you.

I dunno, carn.

Seems to me that they just want out (of Hell). I don’t see anywhere where they say to God to remove them from existence totally…

I could be wrong however.

If you could provide a few verses that you find support the view, I would be very willing to take a good look at them… (…can’t promise I’ll agree with them though… )

peace
steve

 

[PeterGStanley]

God does not just create one man he creates generation after generations of people from one man - the man has the choice of following Gods laws or turning his back on them.To not create the one man who chooses not to follow Gods ways dooms all generations that would come from him and God would not do that as he created the first man he created all who are the descendents from this man which was his design from the very beginning to do so - its like saying he shouldn’t of created Adam because we all suffer in large or small ways.

 

[Robertanthony]

I dunno, carn.

Seems to me that they just want out (of Hell). I don’t see anywhere where they say to God to remove them from existence totally…

I could be wrong however.

If you could provide a few verses that you find support the view, I would be very willing to take a good look at them… (…can’t promise I’ll agree with them though… )

peace
steve

Steve,
I think I might have confused a few verses. I think what I had in mind was Revelation 9:6, stupid me. BTW I'm not carn, although I have nothing against him, he's asking tough questions that most must have asked themselves at some point or other.

 

[tdgesq]

So its morning of day 6 and God says:
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”

So God knows beforehand that some will reject him and suffer eternally. Some will not reject him and will experience eternal happiness. While it is their own choice, nontheless that will be the result.

Considering that God cannot do something evil, why wasn’t the creating men, some of them destined to suffer eternally and some destined for eternal happiness, evil?

Why is it good?

The problem is, non-existance is preferable a lot over eternal suffering.

Perhaps no human being experiences hell. It is a logical possibility.

 

[carn]

To not create the one man who chooses not to follow Gods ways dooms all generations that would come from him and God would not do that as he created the first man he created all who are the descendents from this man which was his design from the very beginning to do so - its like saying he shouldn’t of created Adam because we all suffer in large or small ways.

How can someone be doomed, if he never came into existance?

God does not create Adam and Eve. No one sins and no more humans come into existence. So no humans in hell. (And none with God either.)