Creating his own Eucharist Prayer

[John_Hiner]

If you’re lucky his response won’t be the one my pastor gave me: “We haven’t implemented that document in our diocese.” I should have realized that: they were/are using glass chalices and ciboria at the cathedral.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear Phemie:

Wow. What an honor to be among the first to bring the “word” from Rome to a diocese that has lost contact with the Catholic Church.

I guess that is why the Instruction also says:

Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity. (Redemptionis Sacramentum, 184.)

I hope it went better after that initial response.

Pax Christi vobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[btdn]

So apparently, he picks out one of the Eucharistic Prayers in advance (rotating them, even using the prayers for children’s Masses for non-children’s Masses) and then he says it however the spirit moves him. He is never going to say the words out of the Sacramentry as they are written like playing an audio recording because that isn’t praying but reciting by rote. If people don’t like this, they can feel free to leave the parish (and I know some that have).

Since he mentioned needing to meet the needs of situation (he brought up things like scout camp) I said that he is not meeting the needs of those who go to the weekday Masses. They don’t need (if I may speak for them, they’ve spoken to him too as he said in our conversation) the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, they don’t need Greek or Latin, they need the right words! They may be old ladies but they are not stupid and they can tell the difference.

My next plan of action is to write the him a letter reiterating my position and try to do the same with his and then bring it to the attention of someone in the Archdiocese.

 

[benedictgal]

So apparently, he picks out one of the Eucharistic Prayers in advance (rotating them, even using the prayers for children’s Masses for non-children’s Masses) and then he says it however the spirit moves him. He is never going to say the words out of the Sacramentry as they are written like playing an audio recording because that isn’t praying but reciting by rote. If people don’t like this, they can feel free to leave the parish (and I know some that have).

Since he mentioned needing to meet the needs of situation (he brought up things like scout camp) I said that he is not meeting the needs of those who go to the weekday Masses. They don’t need (if I may speak for them, they’ve spoken to him too as he said in our conversation) the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, they don’t need Greek or Latin, they need the right words! They may be old ladies but they are not stupid and they can tell the difference.

My next plan of action is to write the him a letter reiterating my position and try to do the same with his and then bring it to the attention of someone in the Archdiocese.

The reasons he gave you certainly aren’t justifiable, not by a longshot. This is wrong and it is a serious abuse. He is denying the people the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to the prescriptions of the Church. Furthermore, his actions may wind up invalidating the Mass because of his tinkering with the Eucharistic Prayer. I think the spirit moving him is the same false “Spirit” of Vatican II that pays no heed to what the documents actually say.

 

[japhy]

So apparently, he picks out one of the Eucharistic Prayers in advance (rotating them, even using the prayers for children’s Masses for non-children’s Masses) and then he says it however the spirit moves him. He is never going to say the words out of the Sacramentry as they are written like playing an audio recording because that isn’t praying but reciting by rote. If people don’t like this, they can feel free to leave the parish (and I know some that have).

He is blatantly defying the Church in this regard, and his attitude about it seems less pastoral than he imagines it to be.

 

[twf]

All the advice given thus far is very good. I want to add, however, that this is not a matter that can be put aside of any length of time. If the priest is changing the words of approved Eucharistic Prayers, and even more importantly, if he is changing the words of CONSECRATION, this is a GRAVE abuse and open rebellion against Holy Mother Church. Once you know if this is the case, if the priest doesn’t cease immediately, the bishop must be informed ASAP.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

How should I best handle a priest who creates his own version of the Eucharistic prayer even to the point of slightly altering the words of consecration? He changes other words during the Mass or adds his own reflections at times, but at the Eucharistic prayer, none of the four options for the prayer is recognizable. I wonder if others are not aware of this because we no longer have books in the pews with which to follow the Mass. This priest started out making just a few alterations and now it is to the point of being a totally ad-libbed version of his own. Thank you for your help with this.

The GIRM states that “these or other similar words are acceptable”

 

[benedictgal]

The GIRM states that “these or other similar words are acceptable”

That does not apply for the Consecration. Have you read Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[51.] Only those Eucharistic Prayers are to be used which are found in the Roman Missal or are legitimately approved by the Apostolic See, and according to the manner and the terms set forth by it. "It is not to be tolerated that some Priests take upon themselves the right to compose their own Eucharistic Prayers"129 or to change the same texts approved by the Church, or to introduce others composed by private individuals.130

The provision you are referencing applies to the beginning of the Mass when the priest is addressing the people and in other small instances, but, never, never to the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

That does not apply for the Consecration. Have you read Redemptionis Sacramentum:

The provision you are referencing applies to the beginning of the Mass when the priest is addressing the people and in other small instances, but, never, never to the Eucharistic Prayer.

well there you go! I learn something new everyday!!!
i love arguing with you! we are both stubborn and it makes it alot of fun. I call it “creative disscussion”!

 

[japhy]

The GIRM states that “these or other similar words are acceptable”

First, that is not a direct quote from the GIRM. Second, similar wording (!) to your quote can be found in the Missal itself, but the permission to use similarly-worded texts is not throughout the entire Missal. Only in certain places is it permitted. Everywhere else, priests and bishops are obliged to pray the words of the Church as found in the Missal.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

First, that is not a direct quote from the GIRM. Second, similar wording (!) to your quote can be found in the Missal itself, but the permission to use similarly-worded texts is not throughout the entire Missal. Only in certain places is it permitted. Everywhere else, priests and bishops are obliged to pray the words of the Church as found in the Missal.

i believe that benedictgal pointed this out already.

 

[japhy]

i believe that benedictgal pointed this out already.

I used similar words. I’m also distracted and was slow in actually posting my response.

 

[palmas85]

How should I best handle a priest who creates his own version of the Eucharistic prayer even to the point of slightly altering the words of consecration? He changes other words during the Mass or adds his own reflections at times, but at the Eucharistic prayer, none of the four options for the prayer is recognizable. I wonder if others are not aware of this because we no longer have books in the pews with which to follow the Mass. This priest started out making just a few alterations and now it is to the point of being a totally ad-libbed version of his own. Thank you for your help with this.

You are being highly judgemental , unkind and uncharitable to boot.:bigyikes: : That simply won’t do:tsktsk:

The Priest is merely expressing himself with his own interpretation of what Scripture says. In fact, that is one of the pillars of what the various protestant communities are built upon, self interpretation of scripture. It seems inevitable in these ecumenical times that we as Catholics must surely of necesity come to the conclusion that having a Church that actually interprets and defines for us is simply behind the times and totally passe. Maybe even antiquated

I say join with the Priest and help him out. Give him your own personal interpretation and let him make up a Eucharistic Prayer just for you:thumbsup:

It seems like the ecumenical thing to do.

 

[btdn]

You are being highly judgemental , unkind and uncharitable to boot.:bigyikes: : That simply won’t do:tsktsk:

The Priest is merely expressing himself with his own interpretation of what Scripture says. In fact, that is one of the pillars of what the various protestant communities are built upon, self interpretation of scripture. It seems inevitable in these ecumenical times that we as Catholics must surely of necesity come to the conclusion that having a Church that actually interprets and defines for us is simply behind the times and totally passe. Maybe even antiquated

I say join with the Priest and help him out. Give him your own personal interpretation and let him make up a Eucharistic Prayer just for you:thumbsup:

It seems like the ecumenical thing to do.

The frightening thing is that not everyone who would say that would be joking.

 

[palmas85]

The frightening thing is that not everyone who would say that would be joking.

I have heard people advocate just such a thing. Very little of the sarcasm that I post is made up. It comes from actual events I have witnessed myself, the above being one of them.

 

[btdn]

Father called me to say he had an issue of magazineAmerica for me to read (I will probably be able to feel the souls being freed from Purgatory with the sacrifice that will be! ). I dropped of this letter when I went to pick it up:

Dear Father

I write to you to follow up on our meeting today.

My understanding of your view is that saying the words of the Mass as they are written in the Sacramentary is rote, not praying; the words must fit the emotional state of the presider.

I believe, as the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments said in Redemptionis Sacramentum, that this ‘renders the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distorts the authentic meaning of the Liturgy’ (no. 59). In the same document, the Congregation also said that the practice of ‘Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease’. This does not seem to leave room for leeway.

Please correct me if I have erred.

Yours sincerely

btdn

This is the letter that I have drafted to the bishop:

Your Excellency

I am writing to you with concerns about the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
at ***. I had hoped that I would be able to resolve them with our pastor, the Reverend ***, but after a discussion with him on 14th of July I have realised the problem is worse than I had thought.

Father *** is of the view that priests are above the liturgical rules of the
Church. This includes the ability to change the prayers of the Mass, including and especially the Eucharistic Prayers. To pronounce the words as they are written in the Sacramentary is mere rote–not praying–which is something he will never do.

This, to say the least, shocked me.

He has previously been approached about this matter, and other liturgical abuses–I could go on at length–, by others and given similar responses. After my meeting with Father ***, I sent him a letter to make sure that I understood his position. [Comment about his response here; I will be volunteering at the rectory tomorrow so I suppose I’ll see him.] I feel that I can do nothing further and am grateful that I have recourse to you.

Kissing the Sacred Ring

btdn

OP: Thanks for letting me hijack your thread.

 

[japhy]

Father called me to say he had an issue of America magazine for me to read

Did he hint that it would be apropos to his creativity in the liturgy? Would you mind sharing the volume & issue number?

 

[belgianwaffles9]

Concerning the letter to the bishop:

I would rephrase a few things, especially words like “feels he is above liturgicl law” etc.

Just state simply that you are concerned because Fr. Whatever frequently changes the words, and you have reason to fear (cite the documents) that this invalidates the mass.

Also, you need concrete evidence when you send the letter to the Bishops. Include both your letters to the priest and his replies, and it would help if you could videotape or tape record a few of his eucharistic prayers with altered words, and send those along, too.

If you don’t mind giving this information out, who is your bishop? Some bishops would, unfortunately, totally support the priest in doing what he is doing…

before you send anything, make sure you read, if you haven’t already, Father Z’s excellent advice on the topic.

 

[btdn]

Concerning the letter to the bishop:

I would rephrase a few things, especially words like “feels he is above liturgicl law” etc.

Just state simply that you are concerned because Fr. Whatever frequently changes the words, and you have reason to fear (cite the documents) that this invalidates the mass.

Also, you need concrete evidence when you send the letter to the Bishops. Include both your letters to the priest and his replies, and it would help if you could videotape or tape record a few of his eucharistic prayers with Ialtered words, and send those along, too.

If you don’t mind giving this information out, who is your bishop? Some bishops would, unfortunately, totally support the priest in doing what he is doing…

before you send anything, make sure you read, if you haven’t already, Father Z’s excellent advice on the topic.

I thought it seemed vague, but this whole thing has made for a rather long day. My bishop is the Most Reverend Timothy M. Dolan, Metropolitan Archbishop of Milwaukee (until the fall when I move north, then he stops being my bishop and is just my metropolitan ; I hear wintering in north works better in the southern hemisphere. )

Thank you for your suggestions and that link.

 

[btdn]

Did he hint that it would be apropos to his creativity in the liturgy? Would you mind sharing the volume & issue number?

I am under that impression. It is the 26 May-2 June 2008 issue (Volume 198 Number 18, Whole Number 4817). It has ‘The Changing Liturgy’ in big letters on the cover. I take it I am to take special note of the article ‘More than Words’ by Judith M. Kubicki.

 

[japhy]

I am under that impression. It is the 26 May-2 June 2008 issue (Volume 198 Number 18, Whole Number 4817). It has ‘The Changing Liturgy’ in big letters on the cover. I take it I am to take special note of the article ‘More than Words’ by Judith M. Kubicki.

I’ve found this article online free of charge (on what appears to be a legitimate web site). I’ll read it, but at first glance it didn’t appear to mention a trade-off between the verbal and non-verbal elements of the liturgy…