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Linusthe2nd said:
My position was that of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, etc, the philosophical argument these and other Christian men and women have argued for over a thousand years. Of course it has been disputed nearly as long. However, it happens that it is also the teaching of the Catholic Church. Your own position leaves man in the condition of a mechanical robat. That is unreasonable and incoherent and contrary to life experiences.

Linus2nd
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My position does not put human in the condition of a mechanical robot! All I am saying is that based on what we observe in external world, namely causality, and what accept in our internal world, namely free will which forfeit causality, implements that our world is neither causal or nor non-causal hence any reasoning based on foundation of causality would be wrong.

I have a few simple questions from you: 1) Do you believe in free will and the fact that it is a part of our world? 2) Do you believe that free will is not casual? 3) Do you believe that striving on causality for sake of an argument is right when our world is not completely causal?
 
Bahman said:
My position does not put human in the condition of a mechanical robot! All I am saying is that based on what we observe in external world, namely causality, and what accept in our internal world, namely free will which forfeit causality, implements that our world is neither causal or nor non-causal hence any reasoning based on foundation of causality would be wrong.

I have a few simple questions from you: 1) Do you believe in free will and the fact that it is a part of our world? 2) Do you believe that free will is not casual? 3) Do you believe that striving on causality for sake of an argument is right when our world is not completely causal?
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Nothing in our world happens without cause, nothing, include free will. Our free will is activated, by our Creator who gave us this faculty, by the intellect which presents choices to the will, thus causing it to make a choice. The choice is free, but it is forced to act. Even if it refuses to choose, it still has been forced to act. This is the law of life.

I think language may be causing a barrier against understanding. ( causality again 🙂 )

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Nothing in our world happens without cause, nothing, include free will.
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I don’t understand this statement. If that is the case then we are causal machine and there is no real choice in our life, simply trapped in a single causal chain. The chain of causality has to break at a point when at two choices are available. It is then the duty of intellect plus free will to make a choice and start a new causal chain until other decision is involved. I will open another thread to discuss this issue.
Linusthe2nd said:
Our free will is activated, by our Creator who gave us this faculty, by the intellect which presents choices to the will, thus causing it to make a choice. The choice is free, but it is forced to act. Even if it refuses to choose, it still has been forced to act. This is the law of life.

I think language may be causing a barrier against understanding. ( causality again 🙂 )

Linus2nd
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Whether a creator caused anything is subject of another discussion.
 
Bahman said:
I don’t understand this statement. If that is the case then we are causal machine and there is no real choice in our life, simply trapped in a single causal chain. The chain of causality has to break at a point when at two choices are available. It is then the duty of intellect plus free will to make a choice and start a new causal chain until other decision is involved. I will open another thread to discuss this issue.

The causality of the free will is not like the causality you see in the world outside the mind. What I am saying is that the actual choice the free will makes is not caused or determined in any way. But God causes our will to function, it is he who gave us an intellect which presents options to the will and gives the will the power to function, to make a choice or to not make a choice. So the will is caused in its functionality and operations, but the choices it makes are without compulsion of any kind, these are free. Does that help?

Whether a creator caused anything is subject of another discussion.
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No, it is directly related to the issue. God cause the intellect and will to be and to function.

Linus2nd
 
Does this strengthen your faith? Make you holier/ closer to our Lord?

As I wrote in another thread in reply to a post on suffering:
"Suffering is purifying. It unites us to the suffering of our Lord on the Cross. But more than that. What about our Lord’s entire life here on earth. All pure and all good surrounded by…the kinds of creatures who killed Him.

Servant of God Fulton Sheen describes it paraphrasing what would it be like for a human being to become a dog to save other dogs?"

For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”l

20Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish?m 21* For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,n 23but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,o 24but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 
opusAquinas said:
Does this strengthen your faith? Make you holier/ closer to our Lord?

As I wrote in another thread in reply to a post on suffering:
"Suffering is purifying. It unites us to the suffering of our Lord on the Cross. But more than that. What about our Lord’s entire life here on earth. All pure and all good surrounded by…the kinds of creatures who killed Him.

Servant of God Fulton Sheen describes it paraphrasing what would it be like for a human being to become a dog to save other dogs?"

For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”l

20Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish?m 21* For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,n 23but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,o 24but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
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Pius thoughts indeed, but totally unrelated to the O.P. It adds nothing to the discussion.

Linus2nd
 
opusAquinas said:
You are trying above your pay grade. And the reason the bible should have been kept in latin.
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If you have an objection make it clearly, don’t troll around hoping to hit on something.

If you don’t want to make a positive contribution it is better not to interfer. That is called trolling, which is against the rules.

Linus2nd
 
Charlemagne_III said:
How could the universe be both eternal and created? :confused:
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God created time and space.
Cause and effect does not require time.
So you and I and everyone who has ever lived are eternal but created.
Our Lord is begotten not made.
We are vessels of God’s justice and mercy.
Deja vu all over again.
 
opusAquinas said:
God created time and space.
Cause and effect does not require time.
So you and I and everyone who has ever lived are eternal but created.
Our Lord is begotten not made.
We are vessels of God’s justice and mercy.
Deja vu all over again.
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Cause and effect are instantaneous only in the act of creation and in substantial change.😃

Linus2nd
 
I’m sorry but you guys are going to have to get organized to do the talking in all these area’s. Yuh can’t just introduce words and terms and Aristotle or anybody said this or that. A theory of mind needs to be 'presented , else its just full of holes and contradictions and goes no where… And , it must be in keeping with at least the basic solid concrete facts man now knows about how the mind functions in every single way. How it all works including how thought is processed. Mechanism’s in all . Or , clips , papers could be brought forward for a frame or some kind of a structure to work from, criticize discuss etc.
 
Anselm33 said:
My Latin goes back 70 years to high school, so I was using “origina” as “origin” (sp?)
in time. Anyhow, the link for my thoughts on the Enlightenment giving rise to deism vs. theism are concisely put in a wikipedia article: I believe that St. Thomas put forward the Creation at a point in time could not be proven, although he thought it to be true, but that in any case, even if the universe was eternal, it was still created ex nihilo. There are several web reference to this but a helpful one has been given by Max Andrews. There’s a good comment by Eric Rosenfield on St. Augustine’s view that God is outside of time, and trying to reconcile that notion with the universe being created at a point in time. The various points related to quantum mechanics and the deity might be pursued by following links given in posts in my blog, Reflections of a Catholic Scientist.
Hope this answers your question.
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High School 70 years ago, great. That means you must be at least 86 and still going strong. That is wonderful. I agree with what you say here. I haven’t had time to pursue your blogspot yet, but I am curious. Have you read anything by Fr. John A. Weisheipl ( R.I.P. ) ?

Linus2nd
 
orang said:
I’m sorry but you guys are going to have to get organized to do the talking in all these area’s. Yuh can’t just introduce words and terms and Aristotle or anybody said this or that. A theory of mind needs to be 'presented , else its just full of holes and contradictions and goes no where… And , it must be in keeping with at least the basic solid concrete facts man now knows about how the mind functions in every single way. How it all works including how thought is processed. Mechanism’s in all . Or , clips , papers could be brought forward for a frame or some kind of a structure to work from, criticize discuss etc.
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Surely not. We are not engaged in an academic discussion. Bahman has enough trouble expressing ordinary thoughts in English. An academic discussion might be beyond him because of the language barrier.

But you can chip in with your own thoughts.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
High School 70 years ago, great. That means you must be at least 86 and still going strong. That is wonderful. I agree with what you say here. I haven’t had time to pursue your blogspot yet, but I am curious. Have you read anything by Fr. John A. Weisheipl ( R.I.P. ) ?

Linus2nd
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Thanks for your kind words… I’m 84…graduated high school early, but hopefully still going strong although the senior moments are becoming more frequent. I have not read anything by Fr. Weisheipl, but will look him up on the web.
I’ve been following this thread but have not posted, because I don’t have anything more to contribute than what was said in my last reply.
 
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