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Jim_Baur
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The Creation Accounts and the Fall are recorded in symbolic and figurative language.
Thus we must move them to their literal meaning.
Thus we must move them to their literal meaning.
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Jim_Baur
Guest
This is from the Summa of Thomas, Part I, Question 1, Article 10
Literal Sense (Understanding or Meaning)
I 1. 10, ad 2
These three are grouped under the literal sense, that is,
History
** Etiology**
** Analogy**
For it is called history whenever anything is simply related; it is called etiology when its cause is assigned, as when Our Lord gave the reason why Moses allowed the putting away of wives–namely, on account of the hardness of men’s hearts; it is called analogy whenever the truth of one of Scripture is shown not to contradict the truth of another
I 1. 10, ad 3
The parabolic sense is contained in the literal, for by words things are signified properly and figuratively.
Nor is the figure itself, but that which is figured, the literal sense.
When Scripture speaks of God’s arm, the literal sense is not that God has such a member, but only what is signified by this member, namely operative power.
Literal Sense (Understanding or Meaning)
I 1. 10, ad 2
These three are grouped under the literal sense, that is,
History
** Etiology**
** Analogy**
For it is called history whenever anything is simply related; it is called etiology when its cause is assigned, as when Our Lord gave the reason why Moses allowed the putting away of wives–namely, on account of the hardness of men’s hearts; it is called analogy whenever the truth of one of Scripture is shown not to contradict the truth of another
I 1. 10, ad 3
The parabolic sense is contained in the literal, for by words things are signified properly and figuratively.
Nor is the figure itself, but that which is figured, the literal sense.
When Scripture speaks of God’s arm, the literal sense is not that God has such a member, but only what is signified by this member, namely operative power.
E
edwest2
Guest
I don’t understand. Are you asking a question here? I’m not sure what you’re trying to illustrate.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
F
Fr_of_Jazz
Guest
Let me just throw some definitions into the mix.This is from the Summa of Thomas, Part I, Question 1, Article 10
Literal Sense (Understanding or Meaning)
I 1. 10, ad 2
These three are grouped under the literal sense, that is,
History
** Etiology**
** Analogy**
For it is called history whenever anything is simply related; it is called etiology when its cause is assigned, as when Our Lord gave the reason why Moses allowed the putting away of wives–namely, on account of the hardness of men’s hearts; it is called analogy whenever the truth of one of Scripture is shown not to contradict the truth of another
I 1. 10, ad 3
The parabolic sense is contained in the literal, for by words things are signified properly and figuratively.
Nor is the figure itself, but that which is figured, the literal sense.
When Scripture speaks of God’s arm, the literal sense is not that God has such a member, but only what is signified by this member, namely operative power.
The literal sense is what the author intended to express and convey by the words used.
According to Divino Afflante Spiritu the literal sense in #31 is that “which is expressed by the words themselves.” He goes on in #33-36:
“[33] Let the interpreter then, with all care and without neglecting any light derived from recent research, endeavor to determine the peculiar character and circumstances of the sacred writer, the age in which he lived, the sources written or oral to which he had recourse and the forms of expression he employed.
[34] Thus can he the better understand who was the inspired author, and what he wishes to express by his writings. . . . the supreme rule of interpretation is to discover and define what the writer intended to express.
[35] What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. For what they wished to express is not to be determined by the rules of grammar and philology alone, nor solely by the context; the interpreter must, as it were, go back wholly in spirit to those remote centuries of the East and with the aid of history, archaeology, ethnology, and other sciences, accurately determine what modes of writing, so to speak, the authors of that ancient period would be likely to use, and in fact did use.
[36] For the ancient peoples of the East, in order to express their ideas, did not always employ those forms or kinds of speech which we use today; but rather those used by the men of their times and countries. What those exactly were the commentator cannot determine as it were in advance, but only after a careful examination of the ancient literature of the East.”
So at the risk of mincing words, I would not phrase it as you do in your OP “Thus we must move them to their literal meaning.” I would say: “We must determine the literal sense.”
Are we both saying the same thing in different words?
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Sorry!
I, as usual, ran out of time.
It seems safe to say the the six days are figures of speech, as is the seventh.
If that is true, then what is the literal meaning of each day?
I offer one idea for the Seventh day. God made an oath to love and care for His creation. He also let His blessing rest on His creation.
These are two ideas that might be literal, and not allegorical or Messianic or Christological, and anagogical. They are possible ideas for literal.
Let me try one more, God placed two lights in the sky/heavens/dome, one to rule the day. It is His literal Word to rule the day. His Word gave Adam and Eve their literal soul light. Adam and Eves possession of His light was the light to rule the night.
This is a first attempt at these ideas.
Go gentle, please.
This is being state as an idea and merely an opinion.
Thanks!
I, as usual, ran out of time.
It seems safe to say the the six days are figures of speech, as is the seventh.
If that is true, then what is the literal meaning of each day?
I offer one idea for the Seventh day. God made an oath to love and care for His creation. He also let His blessing rest on His creation.
These are two ideas that might be literal, and not allegorical or Messianic or Christological, and anagogical. They are possible ideas for literal.
Let me try one more, God placed two lights in the sky/heavens/dome, one to rule the day. It is His literal Word to rule the day. His Word gave Adam and Eve their literal soul light. Adam and Eves possession of His light was the light to rule the night.
This is a first attempt at these ideas.
Go gentle, please.
This is being state as an idea and merely an opinion.
Thanks!
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Yes!Are we both saying the same thing in different words?
And your ideas are most helpful, too!
R
Ruthie_again
Guest
Here are my thoughts. Keep in mind that, because I can over-think things way too much, I look for the simplest meanings - if that makes sense. Quotes are from the RSV.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
God existed before anything material existed; He created matter out of nothing.
And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. … and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning…
He created mornings and evenings.
…God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament.
He created planets.
*… God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” … God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. *
He made our planet.
… God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed…
He created plant life.
*…God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years … *
He created time.
*…God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.” …God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” *
He created living creatures.
*… God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness… *
God created human beings.
and let them have dominion …
He gave us power, made us rulers, over all of creation. (Since Adam and Eve were perfect, they would be perfect rulers, not tyrants.)
… And God blessed them,
An important point. He blessed only the humans. We’re special.
… So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.
He made a blessed and holy day. Since He rested on that day, we try to imitate Him.
Over to you, Jim!
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
God existed before anything material existed; He created matter out of nothing.
And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. … and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning…
He created mornings and evenings.
…God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament.
He created planets.
*… God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” … God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. *
He made our planet.
… God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed…
He created plant life.
*…God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years … *
He created time.
*…God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.” …God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” *
He created living creatures.
*… God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness… *
God created human beings.
and let them have dominion …
He gave us power, made us rulers, over all of creation. (Since Adam and Eve were perfect, they would be perfect rulers, not tyrants.)
… And God blessed them,
An important point. He blessed only the humans. We’re special.
… So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.
He made a blessed and holy day. Since He rested on that day, we try to imitate Him.
Over to you, Jim!
F
Fr_of_Jazz
Guest
Re the six days as figures of speech, I’d need to distinguish. If by figure of speech you mean the author Gn 1 consciously employed a device like a parable or allegory to teach an underlying lesson or to be “decoded” into a message/lesson, I don’t think I would agree. It is true that the literal sense must include figures of speech deliberately employed by the author to convey what he intended to express. But given the similarity of Gn 1 to neighboring ancient cosmogonies (like Enuma Elish), it seems more likely he intended to compose his own based upon his faith as it bears upon the common stock of knowledge constituting the worldview of the time. His inspired endeavour is to teach the truth about God in His relation to man and the rest of creation.Sorry!
I, as usual, ran out of time.
It seems safe to say the the six days are figures of speech, as is the seventh.
If that is true, then what is the literal meaning of each day?
I offer one idea for the Seventh day. God made an oath to love and care for His creation. He also let His blessing rest on His creation.
These are two ideas that might be literal, and not allegorical or Messianic or Christological, and anagogical. They are possible ideas for literal.
Let me try one more, God placed two lights in the sky/heavens/dome, one to rule the day. It is His literal Word to rule the day. His Word gave Adam and Eve their literal soul light. Adam and Eves possession of His light was the light to rule the night.
This is a first attempt at these ideas.
Go gentle, please.
This is being state as an idea and merely an opinion.
Thanks!
I don’t think this rules out more-than-literal senses–fuller, typological, allegorical. I would place your initial reflections in this arena.
F
Fr_of_Jazz
Guest
A small point . . .Here are my thoughts. Keep in mind that, because I can over-think things way too much, I look for the simplest meanings - if that makes sense. Quotes are from the RSV.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
God existed before anything material existed; He created matter out of nothing.
And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. … and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning…
He created mornings and evenings.
…God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament.
He created planets.
*… God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” … God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. *
He made our planet.
… God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed…
He created plant life.
*…God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years … *
He created time.
*…God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.” …God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” *
He created living creatures.
*… God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness… *
God created human beings.
and let them have dominion …
He gave us power, made us rulers, over all of creation. (Since Adam and Eve were perfect, they would be perfect rulers, not tyrants.)
… And God blessed them,
An important point. He blessed only the humans. We’re special.
… So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.
He made a blessed and holy day. Since He rested on that day, we try to imitate Him.
Over to you, Jim!
Actually in v 22 God blessed the animals first. What makes us special–I would argue–is (1) we are made in the image and likenes of God; and (2) He told us alone to “fill the earth and subdue it.”
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Where to start?
God is the author. Moses is the inspired author.
God through Moses wished to communicate these literal meanings using figures of speech and symbols, as the CCC quotes indicate. Those symbols have literal meaning as Thomas says, as well as hundreds of other Fathers, doctors and saints.
God the Father is the Creator.
Concerning the Garden, Jesus gives us a great deal of help.
Seeds were planted, that is, the Word of God.
Also, the Word is planted; it is also the Light of and for Adam and Eve.
Seeds grow.
The Tree of Life, the Holy Spirit, was in Adam and Eve’s midst.
The Holy Spirit’s Fruit is love, joy, peace, and so forth, as Paul tells us.
Jesus clearly says His (the Word and later the Incarnation) food is to do the Will of the Father.
The Tree of Life gave them food, the Will of the Father. It is the Word’s food given to Adam and Eve.
I will stop.
It is way too difficult.
God is the author. Moses is the inspired author.
God through Moses wished to communicate these literal meanings using figures of speech and symbols, as the CCC quotes indicate. Those symbols have literal meaning as Thomas says, as well as hundreds of other Fathers, doctors and saints.
God the Father is the Creator.
Concerning the Garden, Jesus gives us a great deal of help.
Seeds were planted, that is, the Word of God.
Also, the Word is planted; it is also the Light of and for Adam and Eve.
Seeds grow.
The Tree of Life, the Holy Spirit, was in Adam and Eve’s midst.
The Holy Spirit’s Fruit is love, joy, peace, and so forth, as Paul tells us.
Jesus clearly says His (the Word and later the Incarnation) food is to do the Will of the Father.
The Tree of Life gave them food, the Will of the Father. It is the Word’s food given to Adam and Eve.
I will stop.
It is way too difficult.
F
Fr_of_Jazz
Guest
(1) The general principles I enunciated regarding the literal sense are indisputable given that they come from legitimate authority.Where to start?
God is the author. Moses is the inspired author.
God through Moses wished to communicate these literal meanings using figures of speech and symbols, as the CCC quotes indicate. Those symbols have literal meaning as Thomas says, as well as hundreds of other Fathers, doctors and saints.
God the Father is the Creator.
Concerning the Garden, Jesus gives us a great deal of help.
Seeds were planted, that is, the Word of God.
Also, the Word is planted; it is also the Light of and for Adam and Eve.
Seeds grow.
The Tree of Life, the Holy Spirit, was in Adam and Eve’s midst.
The Holy Spirit’s Fruit is love, joy, peace, and so forth, as Paul tells us.
Jesus clearly says His (the Word and later the Incarnation) food is to do the Will of the Father.
The Tree of Life gave them food, the Will of the Father. It is the Word’s food given to Adam and Eve.
I will stop.
It is way too difficult.
I would argue that you need to square your thought with the church traditional terminology. You say “literal meaning.” What exactly is that in relation to the “literal sense” as the church defines it?
(2) The cultural context of Gn 1, including ancient cosmogonies, is also established by historical studies.
(3) The Catechism gives us an example of the figurative use of language in Genesis.
“396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes symbolice suggerit] the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.”
That’s a far cry from saying that the entire narrative in Gn 1 is a deliberately constructed allegory by the author who knowingly makes reference to NT personages and events or modern-day scientific findings in code; and that such is the literal sense.
(4) More-than-Literal senses, i.e., fuller sense, typological sense, allegorical sense–yes.
More-than-Literal senses - a meaning intended by God that goes beyond what the human author clearly expressed or intended.
Again, in the fuller sense and typological sense there are true meanings intended by God, but they are not the literal sense. That’s why I see your findings in this category. Why is that problematic?
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Thanks for your ideas, Fr of Jazz
I am not sure, but I believe Thomas Aquinas and the Church clearly say that God is the author of all Scripture. The unsolved puzzle as to how “Moses” wrote the Torah is that, not solved.
I want to be clear: I did not say the Creation Accounts allegory.
I was addressing the literal sense, and not the allegorical. Also, I understand the allegorical sense as Christological. I do not see it as normal allegory.
With that being said, I will be back later.
Again, I really value your ideas. Thanks Fr of Jazz.
I am not sure, but I believe Thomas Aquinas and the Church clearly say that God is the author of all Scripture. The unsolved puzzle as to how “Moses” wrote the Torah is that, not solved.
I want to be clear: I did not say the Creation Accounts allegory.
I was addressing the literal sense, and not the allegorical. Also, I understand the allegorical sense as Christological. I do not see it as normal allegory.
With that being said, I will be back later.
Again, I really value your ideas. Thanks Fr of Jazz.
J
jochoa
Guest
Here is a presentation I created to demonstrate a literal interpretation of the first day-> youtu.be/AzRjG6vRxhUThe Creation Accounts and the Fall are recorded in symbolic and figurative language.
Thus we must move them to their literal meaning.
Please share your thoughts.
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Jazz, Ruthie and Ochoa!!!
I thank you for your ideas and help!!!
I will be back.
Again, thanks!
I thank you for your ideas and help!!!
I will be back.
Again, thanks!
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
One literal point in the First Creation Account: God loves us!
It never mentions love, but the creating and free giving to us is love.
It never mentions love, but the creating and free giving to us is love.
R
Ruthie_again
Guest
You’re right, Fr. of Jazz. I don’t know how I missed that!Actually in v 22 God blessed the animals first. What makes us special–I would argue–is (1) we are made in the image and likenes of God; and (2) He told us alone to “fill the earth and subdue it.”
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
As far as I know, a literal meaning in the Creation Accounts that is never said, God is all-powerful.
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
In the Creation Accounts, it never says that God is all-knowing with actual words. However, there is a literal meaning–God is all-knowing.
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
This is a really tough one.
God does not have arms or legs.
Therefore it is for sure a figure of speech when Genesis says He was walking in the Garden.
God does not have arms or legs.
Therefore it is for sure a figure of speech when Genesis says He was walking in the Garden.
J
jochoa
Guest
What are your thoughts on the following? Surely by some definition, God must have arms and legs, because Jesus is True God, and He has arms and legs.This is a really tough one.
God does not have arms or legs.
Therefore it is for sure a figure of speech when Genesis says He was walking in the Garden.
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