Creation evolves deterministically from God point of view

[Bahman]

It can be shown that omniscience, God knows actions of all beings, would lead to a deterministic picture of creation from God point of view. Here is the argument:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view

 

[Linusthe2nd]

It can be shown that omniscience, God knows actions of all beings, would lead to a deterministic picture of creation from God point of view. Here is the argument:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view

No, you cannot say that, because the decisions of man’s free will are not determined.That would mean, also, that the effects of these decisions on one’s self, on others, and on the broader environment are not determined either.

All we can say is that, in the broad view of the whole of history, the Plan of God’s creation will be accomplished. We cannot say more than that. It will certainly appear to us that some aspects of the unfolding of creation are " determined, " but we can never know for certain exactly where this is true at any given moment. But in the end, God’s will will be done in its final " summing up. "

We cannot design " thought problems " that tell us anything definite about the will or intentions or nature of God with any kind of definite certainty.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

No, you cannot say that, because the decisions of man’s free will are not determined.

First, I didn’t touch being’s free will in my argument.
Second, the conclusion of argument is “creation evolve deterministically from God point of view” that doesn’t say anything what does happen from our perspective.
Third, you need to find the error in argument. You cannot simply say that “you cannot say that or this”.

That would mean, also, that the effects of these decisions on one’s self, on others, and on the broader environment are not determined either.

That is already considered in the argument.

All we can say is that, in the broad view of the whole of history, the Plan of God’s creation will be accomplished. We cannot say more than that. It will certainly appear to us that some aspects of the unfolding of creation are " determined, " but we can never know for certain exactly where this is true at any given moment. But in the end, God’s will will be done in its final " summing up. "

You are talking in a way that God does not know each moment of creation. Do you really believe on that? Don’t you believe on God’s omniscience?

We cannot design " thought problems " that tell us anything definite about the will or intentions or nature of God with any kind of definite certainty.

I didn’t design a thought problem. All which was done, was a set of arguments leading to a result omniscience->determinism. Like it or not.

 

[meltzerboy]

It can be shown that omniscience, God knows actions of all beings, would lead to a deterministic picture of creation from God point of view. Here is the argument:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view

I think G-d’s omniscience means He KNOWS what we will do with our free will. That doesn’t mean He DETERMINES what we will do. Knowing that something will happen doesn’t mean determining that it will happen.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

It can be shown that omniscience, God knows actions of all beings, would lead to a deterministic picture of creation from God point of view. Here is the argument:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view

If you are talking about the christian God then you need to be able to say both of these;
God wills all men to be saved.
Not all men will be saved.
What God wills appears to be different to what he knows.
So he does not necessarily will what he knows.
So saying that the picture is deterministic is inaccurate.
It may appear deterministic from a plant or a rocks point of view but not from a mans, or womans.

 

[Bahman]

I think G-d’s omniscience means He KNOWS what we will do with our free will.

My friend, Gods omniscience means determinism as it was proved. You have to accept its consequences whether you like it or not. You however need to think what free will means in this framework, namely God knows our decisions.

That doesn’t mean He DETERMINES what we will do. Knowing that something will happen doesn’t mean determining that it will happen.

The conclusion of this argument is that “Creation evolves deterministically from God point of view”. There was no conclusion that God determines what we will do.

 

[Bahman]

If you are talking about the christian God then you need to be able to say both of these;

I am talking about every God with omniscience. What is conclusion: omniscience leads to determinism.

So saying that the picture is deterministic is inaccurate.
It may appear deterministic from a plant or a rocks point of view but not from a mans, or womans.

First the picture is deterministic from God point of view as it was proved. This applies either to things, such as plant and object and also apply to us. What however the implication of this determinism is on our free will is subject of discussion.

 

[John_Martin]

It can be shown that omniscience, God knows actions of all beings, would lead to a deterministic picture of creation from God point of view. Here is the argument:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view

Your post implies a curiosity to obtain either agreement or disagreement and reasoning for the agreements or disagreements.
St. Thomas has shown that this curiosity like this is a vice in opposition to studiousness (a virtue which seeks the truth). Since you make the statements and intend to defend them against all responses, you show you are not seeking the truth (none of your responses ask “would you explain to me more so that I can comprehend the truth and then live my life by what I learn”). This is a mortal sin.
And if not curiosity, your intent could be worse, an intention to draw people away from seeking real truth and busy themselves with theoretical assertions rather than seeking truth from authoritative masters, and being their own self-guides.

John Martin

 

[Paddy_Walker]

I am talking about every God with omniscience. What is conclusion: omniscience leads to determinism.

First the picture is deterministic from God point of view as it was proved. This applies either to things, such as plant and object and also apply to us. What however the implication of this determinism is on our free will is subject of discussion.

It may or may not apply to every other god, I suggest there is only one true God. And as I said, from his point of view he wills all to be saved but knows not all will be saved. So from his point of view the picture is not deterministic.

 

[Bahman]

Your post implies a curiosity to obtain either agreement or disagreement and reasoning for the agreements or disagreements.

And what is your position.

Since you make the statements and intend to defend them against all responses, you show you are not seeking the truth (none of your responses ask “would you explain to me more so that I can comprehend the truth and then live my life by what I learn”). This is a mortal sin.

An argument is either right or false. That is the right of a person who purpose an argument to defend her/his argument as that is the right of person who believe an argument is false to attack the argument. We are just discussing facts in this thread.

And if not curiosity, your intent could be worse, an intention to draw people away from seeking real truth and busy themselves with theoretical assertions rather than seeking truth from authoritative masters, and being their own self-guides.

What was said: as a matter of simple fact/truth is that omniscience leads to determinism. You accept the omniscience as a part of your faith so you have accept the consequences.

 

[Bahman]

It may or may not apply to every other god, I suggest there is only one true God.

This is subject of discussion whether omniscience in strong form is one of true God’s attribute. This in fact was shown that omniscience leads to determinism and bring serious consequences to meaning of free will.

And as I said, from his point of view he wills all to be saved but knows not all will be saved. So from his point of view the picture is not deterministic.

He knows not all will be saved and he of course should know who will not be saved and that is a part of omniscience so it lead to determinism as it was discussed.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

This is subject of discussion whether omniscience in strong form is one of true God’s attribute. This in fact was shown that omniscience leads to determinism and bring serious consequences to meaning of free will.

His omniscience is an accepted part of the christian God. And its existence is not under discussion by me nor you as you have a bee in your bonnet about determinism which requires omniscience.

He knows not all will be saved and he of course should know who will not be saved and that is a part of omniscience so it lead to determinism as it was discussed.

He knows who will and will not be saved. And he wills all to be saved and he died to save all.
These are the proven attributes, if you like, of the christian God. There is no determinism where a creature has freewill.
You could choose to live like a saint, Bahman, and ask God for faith and whatever you need. And you would be ‘saved’. Or you could ask for nothing and live like a demon and spend your eternity with the demons.
But that choice is entirely up to you. It is not determined because you could make that choice now and it would happen because you chose it.

 

[bzkoss236]

It can be shown that omniscience, God knows actions of all beings, would lead to a deterministic picture of creation from God point of view. Here is the argument:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view

Your conclusion is flawed based on the premises.

The premises show God’s knowledge of all time, but knowing is different than determining. Determining is reasoning out what could happen, but God is outside of time and thereby not bound by it, and therefore God does not determine anything, he just knows. There is no progression from not knowing to knowing, there is just knowing. Determinism requires that there be a point of not knowing, but God is all knowing, and eternally knowing, so there is no state of not knowing, and thereby there is no determinism.

 

[runningdude]

No, you cannot say that, because the decisions of man’s free will are not determined.That would mean, also, that the effects of these decisions on one’s self, on others, and on the broader environment are not determined either.

This is correct. God put a self imposed limitation on his omnipotence to give us free will.

 

[Richca]

What was said: as a matter of simple fact/truth is that omniscience leads to determinism. You accept the omniscience as a part of your faith so you have accept the consequences.

If omniscience leads to determinism then human beings do not have free will and God is the cause of sin, both of which cannot be accepted.

God’s way of knowing is different than ours as His nature is different, infinitely so. We get our knowledge from things and our knowledge is gained in successive stages or by reasoning processes. God’s knowledge is the cause of the things known and as His nature is simple and one and He is pure act, He has all knowledge by one operation of His essence and intellect. He knows the whole and its parts by one single glance of His intellect.

As other posters have said here, just because God knows the future free actions of human beings doesn’t mean that they are determined by Him. For God knows the evil of sin but He does not cause it. He is the First Cause of all the good that they do however.

 

[MPat]

It can be shown that omniscience, God knows actions of all beings, would lead to a deterministic picture of creation from God point of view. Here is the argument:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view

Er, what exactly does “deterministic manner from God point of view” mean? Or “deterministic manner from X point of view”…? Even “determinism” is not completely clear and it doesn’t become clearer with further additions…

At the moment, given the argument, it would seem that “Y behaves in a deterministic manner from X point of view” means that X knows how Y is, was or will be behaving. In such case, if I flip a coin and look at the result, then, even if the coin flipping was perfectly random, it would seem that you would consider it “deterministic from my point of view”, since after the coin flipping I already know the result. Is that an accurate description…?

And yes, such “determinism” would be true, since in the end things will only happen in one way. There will only be one history. But, while such conclusion would be true, it is not very interesting. Such “determinism” does not seem to conflict with any kind of free will, nor does it seem to conflict with any kind of randomness… In other words, it is not much of determinism…

 

[Bahman]

His omniscience is an accepted part of the christian God. And its existence is not under discussion by me nor you as you have a bee in your bonnet about determinism which requires omniscience.

His omniscience if we accept it lead to determinism. You need to provide a fallacy in the proof. Otherwise you need to accept the result of this simple argument.

He knows who will and will not be saved. And he wills all to be saved and he died to save all.
These are the proven attributes, if you like, of the christian God. There is no determinism where a creature has freewill.
You could choose to live like a saint, Bahman, and ask God for faith and whatever you need. And you would be ‘saved’. Or you could ask for nothing and live like a demon and spend your eternity with the demons.
But that choice is entirely up to you. It is not determined because you could make that choice now and it would happen because you chose it.

I don’t understand what do you mean with saved and unsaved with this discussion. I prefer to stay on side who look for truth and search for truth and truth will eventually set me free.

 

[Bahman]

Your conclusion is flawed based on the premises.

The premises show God’s knowledge of all time, but knowing is different than determining. Determining is reasoning out what could happen, but God is outside of time and thereby not bound by it, and therefore God does not determine anything, he just knows. There is no progression from not knowing to knowing, there is just knowing. Determinism requires that there be a point of not knowing, but God is all knowing, and eternally knowing, so there is no state of not knowing, and thereby there is no determinism.

I didn’t say that God determines our actions. There is no place that I mention that. All I said that if accept omniscience then creation evolves deterministically from God point of view. This is very different from saying that God determine the evolution of creation. What consequence this brings is subject of thinking and discussion.

 

[Bahman]

This is correct. God put a self imposed limitation on his omnipotence to give us free will.

Why not put a self imposed limitation on omniscience to to give a meaning to our free will.

 

[Bahman]

If omniscience leads to determinism then human beings do not have free will and God is the cause of sin, both of which cannot be accepted.

It does, this in fact can be proven in one line: Given state of creation (beings and objects) in a given time God knows/can determine the state of creation in later time. Determine in this sentence doesn’t mean impose. This also means the sequence of evolution of creation can be determined from God point of view which is omniscience again as you believe that God knows all states of creation. This means that things evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view.

As other posters have said here, just because God knows the future free actions of human beings doesn’t mean that they are determined by Him. For God knows the evil of sin but He does not cause it. He is the First Cause of all the good that they do however.

I didn’t say that God determine our action. Please read previous paragraph for more details.