Creation "ex nihilo" and tenseless (B-theory) time

[JDaniel]

Very interesting remarks.

I tend to try to imagine some sort of causal relationship, i.e. viewing a line on a piece of paper, and thinking of the paper as God and the line, moving linearly left to right, as time.

I view it as an off-colored speck of sand, or salt, on one the the beaches of the world - yet it is bigger.

God bless,
jd

 

[buffalo]

Here’s an interesting thought to chew on. According to the special theory of relativity, for something travelling at the speed of light, time does not pass (i.e. time moves slower and slower (relative to a stationary observer) as a particle moves faster and faster)… So a photon does not have past or present time (for us) since it moves at the speed of light…so is God “light”??? …and should we take “I am the light of the world” literally?

Ahhh now we are onto something.

If God who is light looks at the world from His perspective how much time has passed?

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

It depends what we mean by time.

If we speak very simply; and refer to time as merely the pattern of objects in motion; we can see that God initiated time by generating physical bodies.

When we say God created the universe “ex nihilo” God insigated a motion or change that then processed to have contrarity to previous states; thus creating time.

If only a cup existed in the universe; time would not exist so long as there was no change on any level for the cup. It would only be that time would exist in a practical sense if there was some alteration of the object.

It would be incorrect to say “time exists” when there is no motion or change; because time is inhered soley within change.

I tend to agree with this. Good job.

 

[awatkins69]

This is an excellent question. There are two things I think you should read over and ponder very carefully: Summa I I Questions 44 - 49 and St. Thomas on The Eternity of the World dhspriory.org/thomas/DeEternitateMundi.htm

The answer to at what “time” did God create the beginning of the universe is a bit misleading. You are trying to imagine a temporal “before” before time itself, which is impossible. You are still thinking of creation as a temporal cause which gives rise to a temporal effect.

Imagine, however, a footprint in the sand. Do not think of how it currently got there, but only that it is, presently, there in the sand. The causal relationship that exists now between the footprint and the sand is a simultaneous one, not a temporal one. The sand is simultaneously sinking because the foot is simultaneously causing it to sink. We see here in this example that there is a certain hierarchy of causality which is independent of time. Another example: suppose you are sitting in a chair. It is true that the relationship between you and the chair is simultaneous, yet there is a causal order. You are sitting because the chair is holding you up. Without the chair, you could not be sitting, though the chair could still be there. The chair, in this example, causes your sitting in a certain way, since, if it were lacking, it would not be possible for you to be sitting in a chair.

Now, the creation of the first moment of time is the same. There is no temporal moment before it. Rather, the effect of time is *simultaneous with *the cause of God giving rise to it. It is true, there is no temporal moment in which time does not exist. Yet there is a “logical” or “causal” moment, since their is an “order of nature” (as some philosophers say) in the relationship between God causing time and time existing.

Hope this helps.

This is a very hard concept. Thanks though. Good answer.

 

[reggieM]

Great post, JD.

I have been thinking quite a bit, lately, about His immensity. An Infinite immensity. No edge in sight. In fact, no edge! We can’t help but think of Him as only slightly larger than us, or, at least than our universe. But, His immensity is beyond conception, how big the difference is.

There could be multiple universes, engulfed by Him. But, this isn’t about puny humans; it’s about our souls! It’s about our participation with Him in His Universe - which is Boundless. It’s boggling to the mind, Reggie.

So true – it’s about our souls and we have a reference to the immensity of God by looking at the universe. We are able to imagine that immensity and even more than that – all within the individual human mind. The fools say that makes us insignificant. But it’s exactly the opposite. If we had no meaning, we would have that infinite capacity to recognize the immensity of created thinks.

Isn’t this the way philosophy should be handled and discussed, instead of the continual bickering with the “Fool(s)?”

Exactly.

 

[lobster]

How about this?

The thoughts of God flow simultaneously. God can select a thought, but this does not happen before or after anything. God’s decision to create did not happen before or after anything else, although the universe did not always exist in temporal time.

Sometimes we probably have to admit that as humans we cannot possibly understand God beyond are limited abilities of comprehension. Even the idea of God thinking is a human construction, since God does neither think nor decide things.

I view God’s act of creation as one continuous event. It is continuous, in that it proceeds from “a to z” without interruption. It is one, since it is a singular exigency. It is an event since it is non-stop and neither its past or its future compenetrate one another. It is as the Now is for humans.

Possibly the same applies here as well. Now is a human attempt to understand how God exists. Now can also be said to be a function of time. But God is not limited by the past, present, future, or even the now. Sometimes I like to think that time and all aspects of it are simply a limited subset, that we humans exist in, of what eternal is to God. Since time is a limitation of man, it is only an imperfect experience of the unlimited nature of God. It is something which we can ponder (and we should ponder, since it means we are trying to know more about God), but we will never be able to fully grasp God’s infinite glory.
Certainly boggles my mind!

 

[lobster]

Here’s an interesting thought to chew on. According to the special theory of relativity, for something travelling at the speed of light, time does not pass (i.e. time moves slower and slower (relative to a stationary observer) as a particle moves faster and faster)… So a photon does not have past or present time (for us) since it moves at the speed of light…so is God “light”??? …and should we take “I am the light of the world” literally?

Ya! but then it means God could only go 186,000 miles per second! Not enough time to hear everyone’s prayers each night. Would black holes then be able to affect God?