Creation is Cruel

[FightingFat]

A priest friend and I have been asked an awkward question at RCIA and I thought you guys might be able to give me some useful thoughts, hints and tips on the matter.

The argument is that the nature of the world is inherently violent and relies on predation of the stronger upon the weaker and that seems to contradict the idea that this system was designed by a loving God. Do you have any ideas on how best to combat this argument?

Best wishes for a joyous Advent

Mark

 

[Spirithound]

A priest friend and I have been asked an awkward question at RCIA and I thought you guys might be able to give me some useful thoughts, hints and tips on the matter.

The argument is that the nature of the world is inherently violent and relies on predation of the stronger upon the weaker and that seems to contradict the idea that this system was designed by a loving God. Do you have any ideas on how best to combat this argument

Original sin! The original sin was so destructive that it altered the coexistence of all the animals. Recall Isaiah’s images of opposing animals coexisting together: Isaiah 11, and 65.

 

[IrishJoe]

How does that reconcile with if one person disobeys god ALL get punished. It hardly seems fair or just or loving.

 

[Gem]

How does that reconcile with if one person disobeys god ALL get punished. It hardly seems fair or just or loving.

God is infinitely good. Adam’s sin was a betrayal of that goodness, and he had no power on his own to atone for it. So God sent Himself, in the person of Jesus, to make the atonement. This WAS the act of a merciful and loving God.

Putting aside orignal sin for a moment, have you perhaps done nothing in your entire life to merit some kind of punishment yourself? How is this unfair and to whom?

What’s unfair is that we sin and sin but feel entitled to a free pass. We feel that we are in control and that no one can have authority over us - even those specifically chosen by God to lead us to Him.

Gem

 

[Gem]

Original sin! The original sin was so destructive that it altered the coexistence of all the animals. Recall Isaiah’s images of opposing animals coexisting together: Isaiah 11, and 65.

Yes, this is not a perfect world, nor is it the final world. Animals are not moral creatures, so their killing is just necessary at this point. But Genesis talks about animals being vegetarian in the Garden, and some think this will return at the end of the world when all are resurrected.

Evil (the actions of people) is tolerated in this world, so that all have a free choice to accept God in love or not.

Gem

 

[GEddie]

It’s not really so simple as a “punishment for original sin” thing.

Many animals are innate predators. Cows are born to eat grass; cats are born to eat meat. When a cat devours a mouse, or a tiger attacks a human, that is just animal nature working the way it was made. These biological relations are far older than human life. They did not change as a result of something someone did.

And speaking of “original sin,” isn’t physical death overkill (pun intended) for that?

I’d have to stand with the OP. “If nature were our mother, we should sue it for child abuse.”

GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[IrishJoe]

God is infinitely good. Adam’s sin was a betrayal of that goodness, and he had no power on his own to atone for it. So God sent Himself, in the person of Jesus, to make the atonement. This WAS the act of a merciful and loving God.

Putting aside orignal sin for a moment, have you perhaps done nothing in your entire life to merit some kind of punishment yourself? How is this unfair and to whom?

What’s unfair is that we sin and sin but feel entitled to a free pass. We feel that we are in control and that no one can have authority over us - even those specifically chosen by God to lead us to Him.

Gem

Perhaps I am mentally ill and unable to commit sin due to not having full control over my faculties?
Hypothesis aside what I do to people is my own business, and besides why not make me immaculately conceived? It seems the nicest way of sparing us the ‘stain’ of Original Sin.

Besides if we weren’t fallen then we’d not have an inclination to do wrong, but we’ve never been allowed to make that choice. It was made by a rib-woman tempted by a talking snake and then her twice as idiotic husband.

What’s unfair is that from when we are born we are born into damnation and a fallen world and have to scrape beg and bow before a genocidal arrogant and proud deity. A god who made demons(but he’s good?) whom he allows tempt us, to drag us down, lest we get cast into lakes of fire when we fail (which he’s essentially set us up to do) UNLESS we supplicate ourselves to his will.

 

[Warrenton]

What’s unfair is that from when we are born we are born into damnation and a fallen world and have to scrape beg and bow before a genocidal arrogant and proud deity. A god who made demons(but he’s good?) whom he allows tempt us, to drag us down, lest we get cast into lakes of fire when we fail (which he’s essentially set us up to do) UNLESS we supplicate ourselves to his will.

That’s quite a screed, Joe!

If God is genocidal, then how are there so many billions of people here?

God did not make the devils, strictly speaking. He made angels, who decided on there own to become devils. You’ll have to ask them why they did this, because they, like us, had free will.

There are some people out there who just don’t like the idea that other people, or devils, enjoy certain freedoms. Many of them are English, but there are exceptions. To these control freaks, the devil replies, quite reasonably, that it would be unfair if he couldn’t tempt you. It would be an unreasonable restriction on his freedom of expression. His art, if you please, is tempting.

Granted, there is a price to be paid for giving in and enjoying the show, but you don’t complain about having to buy a ticket to see a movie, do you?

They are like the men who play the field like “playas” until they get married, and propmptly get a vasectomy. They love choices, until such time as choices matter.

 

[Gem]

Perhaps I am mentally ill and unable to commit sin due to not having full control over my faculties?
Hypothesis aside what I do to people is my own business, and besides why not make me immaculately conceived? It seems the nicest way of sparing us the ‘stain’ of Original Sin.

Besides if we weren’t fallen then we’d not have an inclination to do wrong, but we’ve never been allowed to make that choice. It was made by a rib-woman tempted by a talking snake and then her twice as idiotic husband.

What’s unfair is that from when we are born we are born into damnation and a fallen world and have to scrape beg and bow before a genocidal arrogant and proud deity. A god who made demons(but he’s good?) whom he allows tempt us, to drag us down, lest we get cast into lakes of fire when we fail (which he’s essentially set us up to do) UNLESS we supplicate ourselves to his will.

One who is mentally ill cannot sin, as you say, so they have nothing to worry about.

What you do to other people isn’t only your business precisely because it involves other people. No one lives on the earth alone. We are a community.

Yes, you, and certainly everyone, could have been created aleady in heaven with God with no need for messy sacrifices. But the whole point of our relationship with God is that it be based on love. To love another we must, by definition, choose what is best for them, not ourselves. Otherwise, it is selfishness- self-love. Love also has to be freely chosen, or it isn’t love at all. To make that choice, we have to have the freedom to choose evil as well. God can’t make us love Him in any real way.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

To the question that creation is cruel, I often hear Christians point out that most suffering is caused by man. I reject that answer. Nature dishes out huge quantities of suffering. If you live right, you get to die slowly over many years.

Blaming the Fall does little good. Yes, this is the big explanation for why there is suffering in nature. But, why return such suffering to animals and all mankind for the transgression of Adam and Eve?

My conclusion is that suffering in this life is nothing compared to eternity. Suffering in this life is mostly what you make of it (you can be poor and be in pain, but be happy. Or, you can be rich and in comfort, but be miserable). And, suffering has benefits, some of which the Bible discusses (to make you a better person, to make you appreciate the good, etc.).

 

[GEddie]

What does “better person” really mean anyhow??? In what way does “being a better person” compensate for physical suffering?

After all, one day each of us is going to become a dead person. And then, any “personal improvement” we may have undergone will stop mattering anyhow.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Warrenton]

But, why return such suffering to animals and all mankind for the transgression of Adam and Eve?

If a man burned his house down, and then complained that his bed, pajamas and toothbrush got consumed, what would we say?

 

[Gem]

What does “better person” really mean anyhow??? In what way does “being a better person” compensate for physical suffering?

After all, one day each of us is going to become a dead person. And then, any “personal improvement” we may have undergone will stop mattering anyhow.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

Better person = closer to God. In that sense, anything is worth becoming a better person.

Personal improvement (growing closer to God and relieving the suffering of others) in this life most certainly matters - it’s the whole point, right? Otherwise, there’s no point to anything. You sound like there’s no afterlife.

 

[GEddie]

Better person = closer to God. In that sense, anything is worth becoming a better person.

Personal improvement (growing closer to God and relieving the suffering of others) in this life most certainly matters - it’s the whole point, right? Otherwise, there’s no point to anything. You sound like there’s no afterlife.

Ok, on your definition, I would agree.

“Better person” is just so overused for someone becoming more feeling, more likable, etc, etc, etc, that I just have to wonder when I see it.

GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[Windfish]

Missing in all of this is the fact the question anthropomorphizes animal suffering, when, in reality, there is no moral question or dimension involved in nature at all.

 

[IrishJoe]

One who is mentally ill cannot sin, as you say, so they have nothing to worry about.

What you do to other people isn’t only your business precisely because it involves other people. No one lives on the earth alone. We are a community.

Yes, you, and certainly everyone, could have been created aleady in heaven with God with no need for messy sacrifices. But the whole point of our relationship with God is that it be based on love. To love another we must, by definition, choose what is best for them, not ourselves. Otherwise, it is selfishness- self-love. Love also has to be freely chosen, or it isn’t love at all. To make that choice, we have to have the freedom to choose evil as well. God can’t make us love Him in any real way.

I may not want to Love god but I may not want to choose evil… ergo I have no choice… that puts me in a 3rd but non-existant category.

 

[fhansen]

Missing in all of this is the fact the question anthropomorphizes animal suffering, when, in reality, there is no moral question or dimension involved in nature at all.

That’s a great point. Moral responsibility only comes into play when one has a choice of whether or not to cause harm to another.

 

[Gem]

I may not want to Love god but I may not want to choose evil… ergo I have no choice… that puts me in a 3rd but non-existant category.

If God does not exist, then none of this discussion matters and one can live as one pleases. In 100 years, who would care what you did or didn’t do? One could do good out of a sense generosity to others or to family, or one could just take what they could.

However, if God does exist, then He exists whether or not you believe in Him. Assuming that’s true, choosing against Him would clearly be bad. But let’s say you don’t actively choose against Him and just try to live a good life. It’s possible that God would decide that you did not have enough knowledge of Him to be held responsible for denying Him. You might be saved anyway; that’s His decision, not ours. But according to Jesus, the possibility of that is small.

But assuming God does exist (again, because if He doesn’t, why are we having this conversation?), why would you not want to acknowledge Him? Didn’t He give you life and give you a world to live in? I admit, “love” is hard when you don’t know someone, but don’t you feel He is at least “there”?

Do you really think that life spontaneously generated from minerals in a pool somewhere? (Don’t get me wrong; I believe in evolution). Why do we have consciences and even worry about “right” and “wrong” if we are really just animals and simply turn to dust when we wear out?

 

[BlueSprite]

A priest friend and I have been asked an awkward question at RCIA and I thought you guys might be able to give me some useful thoughts, hints and tips on the matter.

The argument is that the nature of the world is inherently violent and relies on predation of the stronger upon the weaker and that seems to contradict the idea that this system was designed by a loving God. Do you have any ideas on how best to combat this argument?

Best wishes for a joyous Advent

Mark

Well in reality, this isn’t the case. If there was no balance to life…that is…if only the “strong” survived…then in fact…only the strong would survive, and we’d have few if any diversity of species. For only the strong would survive! But the reality is, there is an incredibly complex level of interrelationships happening among species, environment, etc…and each species has its own “strengths” and “weaknesses” - this creates balance. Because of balance, we have diversity.

But I would argue that there is one species…just one…that* is* exceptionally strong and is surviving, proliferating, and also destroying many others. And that is mankind. But I feel if we followed God’s teachings, this wouldn’t be the case…for God knows this about us - he gave us immense power. And with great power, comes great responsibility.

So he told us what to do, and how to behave - to essentially be stewards of the Earth. But because we haven’t…because we have usurped God’s teachings, and tried to claim his power for our own, we are effectively destroying this planet. Of course this is my opinion… But the pride of man is a dangerous and deadly thing…and I feel it has caused much pain and suffering. That is the only cruelty I can observe…and it is from our own doing.

 

[LilyM]

I may not want to Love god but I may not want to choose evil… ergo I have no choice… that puts me in a 3rd but non-existant category.

Well, you may not want to die slowly or painfully, and on the other hand you may not want to die quickly and painlessly (or painfully) either. But one or other is going to happen to you regardless.

In a sense (given that we all have the option of suicide) you have some choice over the manner of your death. What you can’t do is sit on the fence wringing your hands and wishing you could avoid dying at all, ever. Or you can, but sitting on your fence wringing your hands would be useless as it won’t prevent the inevitable fact of death. That’s the unpalatable truth.

What is it about the fact of creation, or the fact of God’s existence, any more than the fact of death, that makes it unjust that our choices in each situation are limited? In most situations we don’t have an unlimited number of choices either, but we don’t whinge about the fact, we simply do the best with what options we have.

Is unlimited, or less-limited, choice necessarily a better thing? Are people truly better off and happier now that they have hundreds of cable tv channels to choose from, for example, as opposed to a handful of free-to-airs? Is the quality of our tv any better as a result? Viewing figures can tell you it isn’t.