Creation of the Universe: Who, How, and Why?

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Not the case at all. The problem is, the questions themselves already imply something. They aren’t blanket questions and are nowhere near as imaginative as the big questions could be. Hence they lack integrity and sincerity of what I think the OP was actually trying to get at.

Rude.

Perhaps you can address what I’ve said, instead of patrionizing? hmm?
Not only rude, but unkind and unwarranted. Kindly accept my apology.

I could not find your original post to reread and perhaps reply. Searching did not help. Can you give me the post # and thread? Or, even better, since I recall having trouble figuring out exactly what your questions were, could you distill them into one or two clear points, the answers to which, if you accepted them, would make a difference in your life?
 
The basic premise of this thread is that at least some components of the universe are created. While this premise is widely shared, it is not shared by members of the world’s fastest growing belief system, namely, science-based atheism. The creation premise will find little credibility in the minds of educated young people until it is moved from the domain of religion into the realm of scientific plausibility. This requires completion of the following:

Define the nature and properties of the creator or creators of the universe in a complete and logically consistent manner.

Devise a suitable motivation for the accomplishment of that project, preferably one which does not declare human beings to be the primary focus of the creation process.

Determine whether or not it is reasonable for such a creator to exist.

This has already been done, but I’m looking for even better ideas. Positive ideas are welcome, but reiterations of belief are not useful for the purpose of this thread, which invites innovative thought.
Friend the answe is speciffically stated in the first Book, first Chapter of the Bible; Genesis Chapter 1.
 
But that elaborate scheme doesn’t help to distinguish the creator’s purpose of the universe from purposes that people have invented. Though I am flattered that you gave me the final word on the whole affair.
No doubt your persistent queries are a clever ruse intended to trick me into divulging the whereabouts of the Glorious Plutonium Tablets engraved by the apprentice angel Drewl when he defected from heaven to disclose these truths to me. It would do you no good even if I succumbed to your wiles, for the Magic Decoding Ring is in orbit around our planet, disguised as a piece of space junk.

Nonetheless, your excellent question is worth addressing. And the answer is simple. We can never know for certain. Unless a Creator shows up with proof that He is Who He claims to be and that He is telling us the absolute truth, then fesses up (maybe even apologizes) on Fox News, we’re stuck with the inventions of our own minds.

That constraint applies to any sentient being, ourselves included. The best we can ever do is guess, never knowing for certain. Shrinks and country song writers (“What Was I Thinking?”) have demonstrated well enough that people often do not understand their own motivations. Perhaps that explains why we are so gullible when it comes to believing anyone’s motivations for anything.

It may be that any theory which addresses the beginning of things is stuck with the same constraint. Note that the, uh, “singularity,” which allegedly preceded the Big Bang is undefined and undefinable. No possible reason for it to blow up has been devised. Yet scientists and their followers accept, with the same fervor as a devout Catholic accepts almighty God, the belief that the mysterious “singularity” existed and that it made our universe for no reason whatsoever.

Christianity at least has a reason for creation.

Whether the origin of the universe is shown to be conscious intelligence or strictly mechanistic, there will always be a place for uncertainty, belief, and religion.
 
No doubt your persistent queries are a clever ruse intended to trick me into divulging the whereabouts of the Glorious Plutonium Tablets engraved by the apprentice angel Drewl when he defected from heaven to disclose these truths to me. It would do you no good even if I succumbed to your wiles, for the Magic Decoding Ring is in orbit around our planet, disguised as a piece of space junk.
I *knew *it!
Nonetheless, your excellent question is worth addressing. And the answer is simple. We can never know for certain. Unless a Creator shows up with proof that He is Who He claims to be and that He is telling us the absolute truth, then fesses up (maybe even apologizes) on Fox News, we’re stuck with the inventions of our own minds.
I’m not sure of this. If the creator showed up, how many would assume it was a trick by the devil, or some aliens with advanced technology, or a hallucination? I’m not sure it’s possible to ever convince 100% of people… perhaps that is why God doesn’t try it that way?
It may be that any theory which addresses the beginning of things is stuck with the same constraint. Note that the, uh, “singularity,” which allegedly preceded the Big Bang is undefined and undefinable. No possible reason for it to blow up has been devised. Yet scientists and their followers accept, with the same fervor as a devout Catholic accepts almighty God, the belief that the mysterious “singularity” existed and that it made our universe for no reason whatsoever.
However, the singularity (which I personally don’t like as the model) is the theory most scientists think matches the given evidence. It wasn’t just thought up over some beers, a lot of work, math, and observation went into the theory… so saying it’s as devout as accepting God is a bit much. Especially considering with new information, most would (eventually) change their minds about it, just like what was done with general relativity, quantum mechanics, the existence of black holes (which are believed to be a singularity as well by the way), etc.
Whether the origin of the universe is shown to be conscious intelligence or strictly mechanistic, there will always be a place for uncertainty, belief, and religion.
Completely agree with this, well said.
 
So, given that you’ll never be able to tell whether you’ve stumbled on the Creator’s purpose for the universe or have invented your own purpose for the universe, why not just be honest and consciously invent your own purpose as you like? Rather than the “search for the truth” charade?

I mean, revealed religions are one thing, but this other approach strikes me as particularly fruitless.
 
The basic premise of this thread is that at least some components of the universe are created. While this premise is widely shared, it is not shared by members of the world’s fastest growing belief system, namely, science-based atheism. The creation premise will find little credibility in the minds of educated young people until it is moved from the domain of religion into the realm of scientific plausibility. This requires completion of the following:
  • Define the nature and properties of the creator or creators of the universe in a complete and logically consistent manner.
  • Devise a suitable motivation for the accomplishment of that project, preferably one which does not declare human beings to be the primary focus of the creation process.
  • Determine whether or not it is reasonable for such a creator to exist.
This has already been done, but I’m looking for even better ideas. Positive ideas are welcome, but reiterations of belief are not useful for the purpose of this thread, which invites innovative thought.
Hey Greylorn,
I’m going to come at this from a somewhat philosophical level but first I’m drawn to say something that runs counter to your request. I don’t mean to be critical of what you are trying to do with the thread but if I’m going to stay on point I’ve got to be open and honest first. I’m thinking that the premise behind your premise may be flawed, that is if I’m correctly perceiving what you are saying between the lines. So I first wanted to challenge the implication in your opening that belief and innovative thought are somehow mutually exclusive. Just because there are some in this world that don’t believe in the rationale of a faith that can truly deliver us from evil, corruption and death should we, who belong to Christ and who are called by His Name, reject the very means by which Jesus taught us to go forth into all the world and preach the gospel of grace? He promised us that He Himself would be with us in the power of faith and that we would not be orphans but enabled to do the very work of God by His manifest Spirit within us. So if the implication is to sweat the stats & take up some corporal means and, somehow by our own wits & the scientific methos, convince and save those in unbelief I think we’ll all be disappointed. I believe that would be somewhat akin to planning a moonshot and trading in the Atlas booster rocket sitting on the launchpad for a bottle rocket by which to serve as the means to propel us towards our goal. I think, especially in a forum that celebrates faith in God, we must first consider our christian duty to be what God’s plan is for saving the lost. Unless I’m as mistaken as the apostles I think that needs to be, first and foremost, the gospel of Jesus Christ. (e.g. If God wanted us to become His own by the means of intellectualism why did He chose uneducated fishermen, tax collectors, and persecutors to be the foundational leaders to go forth and conquer the world with the Gospel of love and grace? I’ve heard it said the that the longest foot in the entire universe is the distance between a man’s heart and his head. That said all truth is God’s truth and God graces men with wisdom so we look upon the universe with childlike wonder and marvel at its order.
St. Paul:
1Cr 1:26-30 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
If we belong to Christ, then we rest ourselves in Him, not just with heart and soul but also with both mind & body. Faith to me is not a blind leap but a coming to the truth in whom my faith rests, who is Logos and wisdom and my Savior. Everyone has faith. For a non christian it may be money, their education, possessions, their pride, sports, or the praises of other people, to name a few. Suffice to say every man puts their faith in something but the real question is that something going to deliver your soul to the hopes you have placed in that trust?
Are we really presupposing the atheistic scientific community really doesn’t know, deep down, that God will one day ask them to give an account of the life that he gave them?
Saint Paul to the Roman Church:
Romans 1:16-22 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools.
Off my soapbox, Erchomai 🙂
 
The basic premise of this thread is that at least some components of the universe are created. While this premise is widely shared, it is not shared by members of the world’s fastest growing belief system, namely, science-based atheism. The creation premise will find little credibility in the minds of educated young people until it is moved from the domain of religion into the realm of scientific plausibility. This requires completion of the following:

Define the nature and properties of the creator or creators of the universe in a complete and logically consistent manner.

Devise a suitable motivation for the accomplishment of that project, preferably one which does not declare human beings to be the primary focus of the creation process.

Determine whether or not it is reasonable for such a creator to exist.

This has already been done, but I’m looking for even better ideas. Positive ideas are welcome, but reiterations of belief are not useful for the purpose of this thread, which invites innovative thought.
Hi Greylorn, it’s me again, still stuck on the premise but getting there 🙂

I don’t know why the scientific community, as you infer, has gone away from looking at how God designed the universe to literally doing everthing they can to extricate Him out of the picture entirely. I do, however, perceive that, in some instances, that they pursue a legion of hypothesis’ that appear so utterly fantastic that they almost defy rational sensibility. I can’t help but discern that one possibility for this is not a pursuit of truth and rationality but, in reality, an avoidance of the truth coupled with intellectual dishonesty. They have a question to answer that gnaws at every one of them - which in all our understanding of physics is inexplicable. How did space/time and the universe begin? Even if they succeed in recreating some of the original conditions that existed before t-43 seconds post big bang they still will not be able to answer the question of what caused it. It’s a circular argument to presuppose that something physical and temporal gave birth to the temporal universe in which we now live. Since space/time was non existant at t=0 the initial conditions have to be satisfied from outside the domain of time. The logical conclusion, at least for myself, is that the domain of space/time must be a natural subset of a greater domain. It seems completely logical that domain is eternity. It wasn’t always like this with scientists We had Newton, Bacon, Occam,Vesalius, Da Vinci, Mendel, Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler, Leibniz, Pascal, Ohm, Ampere, Faraday, Kelvin, Lavoisier, Dalton, Priestly, Carver, Galileo, Harvey, Boyle, Pasteur, Lister and more who were committed christians as well as committed scientists. The secular scientists claim Einstein as their own and they are right to say he was not a man of faith, especially in deed. But that is not to say he did not have a sense of truth, a sense of a power much greater than he could comprehend behind it all.
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Einstein:
I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with many book in mant languages. The child knows someone must have wriiten those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. - Walter Isaacson, "Einstein and faith, Time , 4/5/2007.
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298,00.html
He also said:
“As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and the Talmud… I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.” One skeptic expressed amazement that Einstein even believed Jesus existed (that was the liberal argument 60 and 70 years ago now wholly discredited of course) Einstein replied, “Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.” - The Delusion of Disbelief, Aikman, Ch.4, p 89.
In the year Einstein published his general theory of Relativity (1915) a sociologist from Bryn Mawr College, named James Leuba, polled top scientists whether they believed in God. Roughly 40% percent affirmed a belief in a personal God, and 40% did not. The remaining 20% did not know. 81 years later in 1996 a poll showed that the atheists had increased by 5%, the believers remained constant and only the agnostics decreased. - The Delusion of Disbelief, Aikman, Ch.4, p 90. I would say you are correct that science based atheism is growing but certain much closer to say y=.07x+40 than any appreciable linear growth. So I’m not really sure if the stats back up the inference of “fast growth”.

May the Lord Bless,
In Christ, Erchomai 🙂
 
Greylorn. What kind of God is your God, and why would such a God make a difference?
It would not be appropriate to address your first question on CAF, but you could get some clues from various postings. You’ve already expressed disagreement with some of my ideas and I doubt that the rest would make you any happier.

If you even ask question two, you’ve not studied the relationships between belief systems and human societies. Doing so is your assignment. Amid its completion you will find your answer.
 
Friend the answe is speciffically stated in the first Book, first Chapter of the Bible; Genesis Chapter 1.
I did not find any such answers there. That is why I started this thread in a philosophy forum rather than a Bible Studies course.
 
It would not be appropriate to address your first question on CAF, but you could get some clues from various postings. You’ve already expressed disagreement with some of my ideas and I doubt that the rest would make you any happier.

If you even ask question two, you’ve not studied the relationships between belief systems and human societies. Doing so is your assignment. Amid its completion you will find your answer.
you didnt answer his questions. why should he research what you can state plainly, this isnt mystery night.

what theology do you profess? what specific tenets does it have? is there a diety, if so who or what.

youve been promoting a non-Christain faith, bad as that is, the lack of courage to state your convictions, plainly openly, with no guile is more damaging to your position than anything else.

if you cant plainly state what you believe, and why, than the question becomes.

why should we be persuaded by any of your arguments?
 
I *knew *it!
Had I not suspected as much, I’d not have dared to divulge even that tidbit of secret knowledge.
I’m not sure of this. If the creator showed up, how many would assume it was a trick by the devil, or some aliens with advanced technology, or a hallucination? I’m not sure it’s possible to ever convince 100% of people… perhaps that is why God doesn’t try it that way?
Perhaps, but note that your question implies that God cares whether we believe in him or not.

I suspect that those presupposed to disbelieve will always find a way to do so, as will those who are determined to believe. My arguments are only for those with open and curious minds, or the clearly undecided. People who are fully accepting of a belief in God should never read anything I write. .
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greylorn:
It may be that any theory which addresses the beginning of things is stuck with the same constraint. Note that the, uh, “singularity,” which allegedly preceded the Big Bang is undefined and undefinable. No possible reason for it to blow up has been devised. Yet scientists and their followers accept, with the same fervor as a devout Catholic accepts almighty God, the belief that the mysterious “singularity” existed and that it made our universe for no reason whatsoever.
However, the singularity (which I personally don’t like as the model) is the theory most scientists think matches the given evidence. It wasn’t just thought up over some beers, a lot of work, math, and observation went into the theory… so saying it’s as devout as accepting God is a bit much. Especially considering with new information, most would (eventually) change their minds about it, just like what was done with general relativity, quantum mechanics, the existence of black holes (which are believed to be a singularity as well by the way), etc.
Quite a bit of my commentary is derived from personal experience which includes 15 years in astronomy. Not an astronomer, I did nonetheless publish a few papers in minor astronomy journals under the department chairman’s sponsorship, plus one on my own.

I worked in a support capacity, mostly computer work and engineering with one of two groups doing pioneer work in computer controlled telescopes and instrumentation. This required many late night observing sessions. Much of our work was done in conjunction with NASA, In the course of time, struggles, and travels, I got into many a late night discussion, because astronomy and metaphysics are closely linked. You would be amazed at how many excellent ideas are found amid informal discussions fueled with alcohol. I can tell anyone today exactly what each astronomer and Ph.d engineer drank as well as their preferred temperature.

Actually, the Big Bang theory is mostly what we commonly referred to as a “hand-waving analysis,” the kind of thing you’ll get on TV information channels. You are correct that a lot of mathematical work was applied to the problem, but it did not yield great results. They refer to the Big Bang’s precursor as a “singularity.” I’m confident that you know enough math to realize what that means— somewhere in the equations, somebody divided by something that turns out to be zero.

Incidentally, to the best of my knowledge, black hole equations do not blow up. Therefore black holes are regarded as singularities only by people who don’t know that a singularity is just a meaningless mathematical abstraction which cannot, by its nature, apply to the real world. There are lots of those people. Please don’t be one of them!

Historically, science changes its collective mind, but only when current dogma accompanies enough individual scientists into retirement. I can make a fair case that the success of science is partly due to the early retirement of tenured professors.

Before you make any personal commitment to promote science’s willingness to scrap a bad theory in the light of contrary evidence, notice that when the first serious mathematical analysis of the Big Bang was performed a few years back, it showed that the theory failed. It could be made to work by temporarily suspending the idea that the speed of light is a constant, so that’s what cosmologists did (inflation theory).

Now you know how keen scientists are on claiming that good theories lead to verifiable predictions? Science puts a lot of its credibility on that line. Now note that Big Bang theory led to the prediction that the rate of expansion of the universe would be slowing down. Why didn’t the observation that it is actually speeding up (as the advanced physics section of my creation theory predicted 30 years ago) cause science to discard Big Bang theory?

The truth is that scientists are as easily hooked by dogmatic belief as any religionist, because beliefs are based upon agreement, and agreement is the only mechanism the human brain (note that I did not say “mind”) has for determining truth.
Completely agree with this, well said.
I really needed that today! Thank you.
 
So, given that you’ll never be able to tell whether you’ve stumbled on the Creator’s purpose for the universe or have invented your own purpose for the universe, why not just be honest and consciously invent your own purpose as you like? Rather than the “search for the truth” charade?

I mean, revealed religions are one thing, but this other approach strikes me as particularly fruitless.
Oh, please! Last reply, I’d forgotten your youthfulness. Now that you’ve refreshed my memory, I’ll dumb down this reply.

A brief forenote: The word “truth” does not appear in my O.P. Do not attribute stuff to me which is not mine.

I made it perfectly clear that I propose the invention of purposes. You must be a liberal. No fair-minded person will declare that someone has not written what he has clearly written.

Revealed religions come into existence when some guy makes up something about creation and has enough charisma to sell it to enough followers. Either the originator claims the ideas to be personally revealed by God, or, later on, his followers do that in his behalf. All “revealed” religions are the words of men, asserted by men to be the words of God.

Since most of these belief systems contradict one another in various respects, all of them cannot be right. Therefore all but one of them are fantasy, and all may be fantasy.
Cosmology and evolution, the two pseudo-sciences which deal with the beginnings of things, have merely taken a different approach to their particular fantasies than conventional religion.

Given that, I consider it worthwhile to enlist the aid of intelligent individuals in the development of a fantasy that makes better sense. This is a potentially valuable project. Human beings live, die, lie, steal, hurt, maim and kill to support whatever fantasies they happen to believe in. Muslims murder civilians to further their belief in their particular fantasies. Babies are aborted, and huge welfare systems are developed to pay for unaborted babies, according to beliefs in one fantasy or another.

But you probably didn’t notice any of this while riding in on the back of a turnip truck.
 
you didnt answer his questions. why should he research what you can state plainly, this isnt mystery night.

what theology do you profess? what specific tenets does it have? is there a diety, if so who or what.

youve been promoting a non-Christain faith, bad as that is, the lack of courage to state your convictions, plainly openly, with no guile is more damaging to your position than anything else.

if you cant plainly state what you believe, and why, than the question becomes.

why should we be persuaded by any of your arguments?
You will never be persuaded by any of my arguments, nor will most others. You’ve objected to every preliminary idea I’ve proposed, not on the basis of any contrary fact or logic, but because they contradict your current beliefs. You are incapable of understanding, much less accepting ideas which are not in line with your beliefs.

My theories are published, but if I told you where, you and others whose minds are slightly less than open might read them. That would just annoy you more. Then I might receive more reasons why you don’t like them because of this or that belief they happen to contradict. I already know that my ideas contradict your beliefs, so I don’t need you to tell me that again.

Finally, I am not promoting a faith. I distrust faith and belief. I am proposing, not promoting, ideas intended to integrate the concept of a Creator with the facts and principles of science. I am sorry, but not surprised, that you and the millions of dogmatists for whom you speak, do not like that.

But the reality is that if those who believe in God, creation, and the human soul do not find a way to integrate their beliefs with the few hard truths of basic physics, your grandchildren will be living in the brave new socialist Muslim world.

Either contribute to the questions offered in the O.P. or kindly start one of your own and get off my case.
 
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