Creation

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We put a time on creation - 7 days. God is timeless. 7 days could be millenia for Him.

God created everything. Darwin just wanted to put his spin on things. God must have laughed when He heard it!
 
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RikasAngel:
Hello All,

One of the biggest and most contentious theological/scientefic issues out there is the issue of Creation. There are three major opinions on the subject: 7 Day Creation, Intelligent Design, and Dawinian Evolution. I personally favor Intelligent Design. I want to get a sense of what most Catholics believe on the subject.
  1. 7 Day Creation: The Biblical account of Creation is literally true.
  2. Intelligent Design: God used Natural Forces to Create the Universe and Life over a long period of time.
  3. Darwinian Evolution: The Origins of the Universe can be atributed to Natural Causes alone and not to any Higher Power.
I favor 7 literal days.

What is the origin of original sin without a state of grace from which to fall?

Peace
 
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DavidFilmer:
Consider the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. It’s not especailly miraculous that wheat and fish multiply - we see it happen all the time. But we don’t normally see it happen in the manner that happened on those plains. Jesus did not do something completely “unnatural” (such as create a meal from thin air), but, in a sense, he “sped up” the natural process.

Could (or, would) Jesus have accomplished this miracle if the young boy (or some other) had not offered to share his supper? Theologians debate this point, but I say no.

LIkewise, God could have, in the act of Creation, have decided to “speed up” the process. He could have created a “mature” world, with all the signs of youth, but without the actual events of youth having occured. As they say in the movies, God “cut to the chase.”

So what if we think these artifacts are eons old? That’s how God WOULD have done it, if He had actually bothered with the “insignificant” bits. Maybe He did, and maybe He didn’t - we simply cannot say for sure.

It’s a possibility. And it cannot be disproved.
God can and has certainly performed miracles, such as the parting of the Red Sea and the feeding of the five thousand. But creating a world with false appearances of eons of development would, indeed, be deceptive. The reason miracles are not deceptive and the false appearance of evolutionary development is, is because miracles stand on their own. They do not include false evidence of an alternate explanation. For example, if Jesus miraculously created 5000 fish overnight while the crowd was sleeping, produced evidence to indicate that overnight a large number of donkeys delivered the fish, then expected the people to believe it was a miracle—that would be deceptive. While faith is required to really believe, faith is difficult enough as it is. It would be against God’s nature to introduce false evidence, knowing it would mislead and deceive people.

What makes it even more untenable that God would intentionally create the false appearance of evolutionary development is nature is a primitive form of the gospel. What we learn from nature is a form of revelation, and as such, God would not introduce deception into this gospel account.

Romans 1:18-23 explains that all men are without excuse, that “for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” (v. 20) The natural world proclaims God—not just by its beauty, but by its order and design. What nature tells us is true. This stands in stark contrast to Bhuddist philosophy, which tells us to mistrust our senses and that the world around us is an illusion. This is not to say that our senses always perceive correctly. But it isn’t just that Bhuddism tells us that we don’t perceive correctly, it tells us there is really nothing objective out there at all. This is a lie from the pit of hell.

Given this gospel of nature—the sedimentary layers, the drifting continents that look like puzzle pieces, life forms that appear to have similar evolutionary ancestry—this all tells a story. God is revealing something of Himself in this story. It is untenable to suggest that God created all this elaborate evidence only to mislead us. And this evidence doesn’t just give us a history lesson. It is a lesson in how we are to epistemologically approach every inquiry of life: theology, philosophy, logic, physical science, biology, psychology, business…you name it.

Having said this, it is worth considering the possibility that the universe is simultaneously 18 billions years old and 6 days old. The passagle of time is not only affected by speed, it is also affected by mass. From what I understand, the mass of the universe can be calculated by the echo of the Big Bang. At the moment of the Big Bang, every atom that presently exists in the universe was confined to a very small area. After the Bang and the subsequent formation of galaxies and planetary systems, the universe has been expanding. But the reference point for the 6-day calculation of creation may be based on universe-time. Given the estimated mass of the universe, that passage of time is extremely slow–so slow that 18 billion earth years equals about 6 days. Since the first 5 “days” of creation was prior to the creation of humans, it makes sense that the account would be told from a perspective other than human and other than earth-time. The creation account in Genesis is told from God’s perspective.

You can read more about this fascinating theory that harmonizes scripture and the gospel of nature in a book by Gerald Schroeder, called The Science of God.
 
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EA_Man:
I favor 7 literal days.

What is the origin of original sin without a state of grace from which to fall?

Peace
Adam and Eve were real people and the Fall was a real event in time, introducing moral corruption into the world. But this does not preclude the possibility that at a certain point in time, God selected a pre-human hominid, gave him an immortal soul, and named him Adam. Eve was then created from Adam.

See my previous post for reasons why creation in 6 literal days (as we know them to be) is untenable.
 
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RikasAngel:
Hello All,

One of the biggest and most contentious theological/scientefic issues out there is the issue of Creation. There are three major opinions on the subject: 7 Day Creation, Intelligent Design, and Dawinian Evolution. I personally favor Intelligent Design. I want to get a sense of what most Catholics believe on the subject.
  1. 7 Day Creation: The Biblical account of Creation is literally true.
  2. Intelligent Design: God used Natural Forces to Create the Universe and Life over a long period of time.
  3. Darwinian Evolution: The Origins of the Universe can be atributed to Natural Causes alone and not to any Higher Power.
Out of respect for the dead, please. Darwin did not have anything to say about Creation or the origin of the universe. he studied living things only and published his scientific findings. he never denied God’s existence or importance. To equate Darwin’s ideas with this theory of the universe is false, basically a lie. And since he’s not here to defend himself, and it does no good to perpetuate this falsehood, let’s not attach his name to something he had no part in.

cheddar
 
ched << To equate Darwin’s ideas with this theory of the universe is false, basically a lie. >>

Yep, he meant Dawkinsian Evolution 😃 , the idea that anyone who rejects full naturalistic atheistic evolution is either ignorant, stupid, insane, wicked, tormented, bullied or brainwashed.

“I don’t withdraw a word of my initial statement. But I do now think it may have been incomplete. There is perhaps a fifth category, which may belong under ‘insane’ but which can be more sympathetically characterized by a word like tormented, bullied, or brainwashed. Sincere people who are not ignorant, not stupid, and not wicked can be cruelly torn, almost in two, between the massive evidence of science on the one hand, and their understanding of what their holy book tells them on the other. I think this is one of the truly bad things religion can do to a human mind. There is wickedness here, but it is the wickedness of the institution and what it does to a believing victim, not wickedness on the part of the victim himself. The clearest example I know is poignant, even sad, and I shall do it justice in a later article.” (Richard Dawkins, Ignorance is No Crime)

And in this poll, a vote for “intelligent design” is a vote for THEISTIC evolution, since that is the definition: “God used Natural Forces to Create the Universe and Life over a long period of time.” And the Church accepts that. See International Theological Commission on Creation and Evolution, particularly paragraphs 62-70, as I will keep pointing out. 👍

Phil P
 
Phil, wouldn’t you say that Darwinian evolution is, almost by definition, non-teleological?
 
Ahimsa << Phil, wouldn’t you say that Darwinian evolution is, almost by definition, non-teleological? >>

I don’t know, read this and tell me. Depends how one reads Darwin. But modern biology (which has gone well beyond Darwin) is simply silent on the existence of God, and yes does try to explain everything by natural means since that’s how science works best. Science by definition is **non-**theistic methodologically but not atheistic philosophically.

I am for theistic evolution, and I suggest God intervened at the beginning of the universe, at the origin of first life, and at the creation of the soul in the first man, but that science can’t detect these things. Science by definition is silent about miracles and the existence of God.

The Church has spoken on the recent “intelligent design” debate here:

“A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation.” (“Human Persons Created in the Image of God”, document published July 2004, paragraph 69)

International Theological Commission statement

A truly natural process can fall within God’s plan for creation, see also paragraph 68: God as Creator works through natural, secondary causes. That’s what the poll in this thread defines as “Intelligent Design” but I call that theistic evolution.

Phil P
 
I go with 7 day creation for a couple of reasons. First it is in the Bible. Second, the program that police use to age people they are trying to find. When a person is aged to 700 or so years as it is said in the Bible that Abraham, Noah etc. lived they look much like the early hominids such as Homo erectus and Homo habilis
 
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nateph88:
I go with 7 day creation for a couple of reasons. First it is in the Bible. Second, the program that police use to age people they are trying to find. When a person is aged to 700 or so years as it is said in the Bible that Abraham, Noah etc. lived they look much like the early hominids such as Homo erectus and Homo habilis
Huh?:confused:

Peace

Tim
 
nateph << When a person is aged to 700 or so years as it is said in the Bible that Abraham, Noah etc. lived they look much like the early hominids such as Homo erectus and Homo habilis >>

Yeah, Abraham was a homo erectus, and Noah was an Australopithecine, everybody knows that. 😃

Actually here is an article that argues Adam/Eve were Neanderthals. Speculative but interesting. Sent to me by a Ph.D. in physics. He tries to reconcile a literal Adam/Eve with science. And I tacked on some books on paleoanthropology I’ve looked up at a university library, some religious, some not.

Phil P
 
Doesn’t current genetic evidence point to a single set of parents for all of modern man? At a relatively late time 60,000 to 100,000 years
We have a different genetic make-up than all other so called links.
A variation of the Seven Day scenario seems the most plausable.
 
I was in physics class today and we learned about relativity and time dilation…and a weird idea popped into my head, so I was wondering what y’all thought:

My physic prof. was telling us about the “twin paradox” which is basically if one twin stays on earth and one twin travels at the speed of light somewhere and back, the twin on earth ages a lot and the twin traveling hasn’t aged much at all.

So, I was wondering, since God could move at the speed of light (since He can do anything), could He have created all things in a matter of “days” but was really moving at the speed of light (or faster, since God is above the laws of physics) which is the equivalent of millions of years?

It seems to me that it *could * make sense, however, I know that it’s a stretch and I’ll be the FIRST to admit that I dont know much about the time dilation/relativity stuff just yet… 😃
And if I’m completely off, let me know, 'cause like I said, it just “popped in my head” during class today… :o
 
if my memory serves me correctly, we still measure time relative to the rotation of the earth. therefore until the sun was created, there would be no way to calculate temporal time.
genesis says “God created heaven and the earth.”
in another words, God said let there be…what ever and then there was a big bang.
in order for evolution to work, somewhere along the line matter is required. then a normal question, from wenst the matter?
alih.
 
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alih:
if my memory serves me correctly, we still measure time relative to the rotation of the earth. therefore until the sun was created, there would be no way to calculate temporal time.
No way? Perhaps time was calculated using the rotation rate of another planet orbiting another star in another galaxy.😃
 
may it be concluded that when “god created the heavens” that included planets also?
 
It really doesn’t matter though which one you believe because they don’t change what you believe, or at least it shouldn’t.
 
  1. 7 Day Creation: The Biblical account of Creation is literally true.
  1. Intelligent Design: God used Natural Forces to Create the Universe and Life over a long period of time.
  1. Darwinian Evolution: The Origins of the Universe can be atributed to Natural Causes alone and not to any Higher Power.
None of the above.
  1. 7 day creation: Entirely possibly for God but all the evidence isnt in yet.
  2. Intelligent Design: Unsatisfactory, God had to create the first life in any event. Creating all life is therefore not a problem for Him.
    The question should be: Why did God want to put time-scales between events by using intelligent design.
  3. Darwinian Evolution: Not true according to Darwin himself.
    The individual should substitute his own name for this theory.
 
  1. 7 day creation: no independent physical evidence to support it & it breaks most laws of nature. Would require all human and animal pairs to be incestuous
  2. Intelligent Design: identical to choice 3 but adds two leaps of faith on top of it so it therefore goes against the principal of parsimony. Makes no predictions and is not falsifiable and thus is not a valid scientific theory. Currently popular in DC as a vote getter
    1. Darwinian Evolution: fits known data; is a testimony to how sublime Creation is; and a reminder that God definitely doesn’t work on a human scale:cool:
how does the old joke go?

They earth is only 6,000 years old BUT SOMEBODY went through a lot of trouble to build up the geologic layers, bury fossils, red shift light, and set nuclear half lives so we better believe in evolution if we know what’s good for us;)
 
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