creation

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javelin:
Of course it is ture – it is Inspired of God, and God does not lie.

The question is in what way is it true? ======================================================================== Does it really matter? :rolleyes: God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
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javelin:
Of course it is ture – it is Inspired of God, and God does not lie.

The question is in what way is it true?
======================================================================== Does it really matter? :rolleyes: God Bless
It certainly does to some – especially those who would try to use science to prove the creation story historically, literally untrue, and have that assertion call in to question the authenticity of the entirety of the Scriptures. This very question is something self-described rational people see as a roadblock to faith, for faith and reason virtually cannot exist in contradiction to one another. We must be prepared to help them remove the stumbling blocks by sharing with them the Truth.

Peace,
javelin
 
What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must “confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing” (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth” (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

------- from Catholic Answers

This makes so much sense to me. I have never understood why it is so difficult for some people to accept both science and God. Afterall, God is the Author of ALL TRUTH…you cannot have anything without HIM…but then again, I’m one of those simple, foolish Catholic Christians…:whacky:
 
Here’s more from that same Catholic Answers article, which is where I believe I first saw the belief in a single Adam and single Eve stated almost dogmatically:

Catholic Answers said:
Adam and Eve: Real People

It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The *Catechism *states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).

Peace,
javelin
 
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aarodad:
Hi
As Catholics Are We Free To Take Genesis Literaly. I Am Talking About Believing In A Literal 6 Day Creation And In A World Wide Flood In Noah’s Day, Etc. Has The Church Always Been Open To Theistic Evolution In Its Official Teaching Or Is That A Fairly New Idea. Thanks
I’m not aware of any official teaching which suggests you cannot be a literal 6 day creationist . . . although it begs several questions . . .

Theistic evolution, at least in one sense of the term, has been around since at least the days of St. Augustine of Hippo (mid 4th to early 5th century). His work “On the Literal Meaning of Genesis” may be helpful.
 
Hi
I Understand That There Are Different Types Of Literature In Scripture. Eg, When I Teach The Proverbs I Teach Them As General Truths Because That Is What A Proverb Is. However I See No Reason To Reject The Literal Interpretation Of Genesis. As For The Age Of The Earth God Obviously Created Everything With The Appearance Of Age As He Did With Adam And Eve. The Fossil Records Can Easily Be Explained By A World Wide Flood, Which Of Course Has Also Been Called Into Question By Some Bible Interpreters Even Though The Bible Says: Every High Mountain Under All The Earth Was Covered With Water. If God Did Not Mean What He Said Why Did He Not Say What He Meant.

Michael
 
dear javelin

“faith and reason virtually cannot exist in contradiction to one another?” then the handwriting never appeared on the wall in dan.5, and ellijah did not ascend to heaven. when naaman was told to dip himself in the jordan 7 times to be healed of his leprosy that did not make sense; it was not reasonable, but he believed, and did it anyway and was healed. faith involves believing God even when it does not make sense. limiting the literal interpretation of scripture to those parts which seem reasonable to humans is exactly what the protestnts did last century and it has led to theological liberalism and a denial of much of the word of God.
thanks,
michael
 
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aarodad:
Hi
I Understand That There Are Different Types Of Literature In Scripture. Eg, When I Teach The Proverbs I Teach Them As General Truths Because That Is What A Proverb Is. However I See No Reason To Reject The Literal Interpretation Of Genesis. As For The Age Of The Earth God Obviously Created Everything With The Appearance Of Age As He Did With Adam And Eve. The Fossil Records Can Easily Be Explained By A World Wide Flood, Which Of Course Has Also Been Called Into Question By Some Bible Interpreters Even Though The Bible Says: Every High Mountain Under All The Earth Was Covered With Water. If God Did Not Mean What He Said Why Did He Not Say What He Meant.

Michael
He did say what he meant. And what he meant was poetry. One has to remember that the Hebrew word Yom doesn’t always mean 24 hour day. And since this is poetry, things tend to be figurative.

God is truth; so we see him in all truth, such as science. God is goodness; so we don’t expect him to trick us by making the evidence point to one thing and wanting us to believe another. God is Beauty; so a poetic narrative of creation with figurative items seems to fit God’s nature, not contradict it.
 
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javelin:
I believe that it is also Catholic dogma that all of the human race came from a single male and a single female, Adam and Eve. This seems necessary in order for the sin of the one to promulgate to the entire human race.

But I agree with other posters who argue that a literal 6 24-hour day creation is very difficult to reconcile with the scientific knowledge we have of the planet’s history.

The hardest part I have with theistic evolution is at what point is man infused with a soul? And if there was a race of homo-whatevers that at some point evolved into homo-sapiens, how probable is it that there was only one male and female homo-sapien initially, from which the entire human race was spawned? Unlikely, and possibly scientifically disproven, although I have no idea. I don’t see right now another explanation for the origins of humanity from a single male and fenale if theistic evolution is aligned with Catholic dogma.

There is one aspect of the Adam and Eve dogma that I’m not sure of, though. Is it necessarily dogma that we are all offspring of Adam and Eve together? What if there were, say 10 homo-erectus in existence when Adam was born with the genetic mutation that made him human, and was the first to be infused with a soul. Then Eve was likewise born, possibly as an offspring of Adam, inheriting his human genetic trait (his “rib”). Is it dogma that from only these two mating together, the entire human race is formed, or could Adam have his own genetic line, and Eve her own, but not necessarily together? After all, if they each carried the dominant genetic trait making them human, they would bear only human children if they mated with *homo-erectus *partners, correct? This would also help alleviate the scientific criticism of the “single couple spawning the entire race” theory because of the genetic problems that often occur with genetically related people producing offspring.

Does anyone know more on this?

Peace,
javelin

Have you seen this: [​

**DID THE HUMAN BODY EVOLVE NATURALLY? **A FORGOTTEN PAPAL DECLARATION](LT73-74 - DID THE HUMAN BODY EVOLVE NATURALLY? A FORGOTTEN PAPAL DECLARATION)

…Expressed in more precise terms, my thesis is that, at least by the year 1880, the conditions subsequently laid down by Vatican Council II for infallibility had been fulfilled in the case of the Church’s ordinary magisterial teaching, drawn from Genesis 1-2, which implicitly** 3** excluded, as directly or indirectly contrary to revealed truth: (a) any ***exclusively natural ***evolutionary explanation for the formation of Adam’s body; and **(b) **any evolutionary explanation whatsoever for the formation of Eve’s body.

A clarification of terminology will be necessary at this point. I have used the words “exclusively natural evolutionary explanation” in **(a) **above, and the expression “evolve naturally” in the title of this essay, even though practically all evolutionary biologists and palaeontologists, whether theists or atheists, would regard such expressions as practically redundant, since they understand “evolution,” precisely as a scientific theory, to refer by definition to an ‘exclusively natural’ process; that is, one in which natural causes alone - reproduction, mutation, natural selection, etc., - brought about all the physical characteristics of every living creature, including man, without the need for any supernatural interventions - at least after the first appearance of life on earth.

…continued…]
 
…continued & ended]

…continue quotation…]

I am defining ‘evolution’ more broadly than this, to mean any ‘common-descent’ theory of the development of life-forms 4** which includes the view that the first human being began his or her life as an embryo in the womb of a female brute**. This broader definition has been preferred because the present essay is a theological one; and some theologians** 5** - in contrast to scientists - have included among the theoretically possible varieties of “evolution” a hypothetical scenario which they call “special transformism” (as distinct from “natural transformism”). According to this hypothesis, evolution from primitive, cellular forms up to the level of hominid creatures may well have occurred by exclusively physical laws and processes; but these would have been incapable of producing the superior genetic make-up of a being physically apt for - and hence requiring - a rational soul. Hence, it is said, a last-minute supernatural intervention at the moment of Adam’s conception would have been necessary in order to give his embryonic body the genetic constitution and physical features of a true human being. We shall argue in this essay that special transformism, limited to the case of Adam’s body, is the only ‘evolutionary’ explanation of man’s body which could perhaps be reconciled with the Catholic doctrine on this point, which, while commonly forgotten or ignored today, could, already in 1880 if not before, be recognized as having attained infallible status. [end of quotation]

[Text as in original essay]

===

If this is infallibly certain teaching, why is it never mentioned ? We hear all the time of other Papal texts claimed to be infallible: the failure of the Magisterium to give the teaching on the creation of man found in the Encyclical Letter Arcanum Divinæ Sapientiæ of Pope Leo XIII on Christian Marriage (10 February 1880) - which is what the article is about - the same status, strongly suggests that that teaching is not infallibly certain.

IMO, it’s a catastrophic howler to take Genesis 1-3 as saying anything about human palao-biology: that is not what the text of Genesis about. It’s about as sensible as taking the geography of the Bible as final. The Bible gives no reason to suppose there is an Australia - nor do the Fathers.

Presumably Australia, the very existence of which was unknown until the 18th century, is a modernistic invention spawned by the Enlightenment. No Catholic, ISTM, can possibly believe there is an Australia - or a New Zealand. The alleged Americas, of which nothing was said before the end of the 15th century, are in all probability an invention of those who were attempting to weaken the authority of the Church - in fact, this fantasy of an America is almost certainly a leading cause of the Reformation. It’s about time that the blasphemous and heretical error of belief in the Americas was explicity condemned: no doubt a Council will get round to do this, if the Pope does not ##
 
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aarodad:
dear javelin

“faith and reason virtually cannot exist in contradiction to one another?” then the handwriting never appeared on the wall in dan.5, and ellijah did not ascend to heaven.

That’s right - the story about Elijah is attributing to him activity more commonly attributed to Baal. Which makes perfect sense, because most of his activity is described in exactly that way.​

when naaman was told to dip himself in the jordan 7 times to be healed of his leprosy that did not make sense; it was not reasonable, but he believed, and did it anyway and was healed. faith involves believing God even when it does not make sense. limiting the literal interpretation of scripture to those parts which seem reasonable to humans is exactly what the protestnts did last century and it has led to theological liberalism and a denial of much of the word of God.
thanks,
michael
 
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aarodad:
Hi
As For The Age Of The Earth God Obviously Created Everything With The Appearance Of Age As He Did With Adam And Eve.
So you are claiming that God is a deceptive God? I absolutely reject that. You can believe that Genesis is a literal history of the earth, but in doing so you will have to reject the scientific evidence against it.
The Fossil Records Can Easily Be Explained By A World Wide Flood, Which Of Course Has Also Been Called Into Question By Some Bible Interpreters Even Though The Bible Says: Every High Mountain Under All The Earth Was Covered With Water.
No, the fossil record cannont be explained by a global flood. In fact, there is no geologic evidence of a global flood.
If God Did Not Mean What He Said Why Did He Not Say What He Meant.
He did.

Peace

Tim
 
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javelin:
.

And if there was a race of homo-whatevers that at some point evolved into homo-sapiens, how probable is it that there was only one male and female homo-sapien initially, from which the entire human race was spawned? Unlikely, and possibly scientifically disproven, although I have no idea.
Does anyone know more on this?

Peace,
javelin
Actually, there are some scientist who believe that we sprung from one woman that they have dubbed Eve. They are not neccessarily believers in Christ. Instead they have come to this conclusion from studying the mitrochondria in the cell. I am not a scientist so I have no idea how they arrived at this conclusion.

I think that the reason that this information has not been jumped on by religious people is that in order to accept the scientists’ conclusion, you must also accept that Eve existed before the bible said that she would. I think that it was concluded that she would have been pre homo sapian.
 
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Orogeny:
So you are claiming that God is a deceptive God? I absolutely reject that. You can believe that Genesis is a literal history of the earth, but in doing so you will have to reject the scientific evidence against it.

No, the fossil record cannont be explained by a global flood. In fact, there is no geologic evidence of a global flood.

He did.

Peace

Tim
Doesn’t it state in the bible that nature itself bears witness to God’s existence? If God put out fossils just to test our belief wouldn’t he be going against the bible?
 
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aarodad:
dear javelin

“faith and reason virtually cannot exist in contradiction to one another?” then the handwriting never appeared on the wall in dan.5, and ellijah did not ascend to heaven. when naaman was told to dip himself in the jordan 7 times to be healed of his leprosy that did not make sense; it was not reasonable, but he believed, and did it anyway and was healed. faith involves believing God even when it does not make sense. limiting the literal interpretation of scripture to those parts which seem reasonable to humans is exactly what the protestnts did last century and it has led to theological liberalism and a denial of much of the word of God.
thanks,
michael
Perhaps I should not have made such a blanket statement without explaning further.

I think that your examples above actually support my point more than they counter it. Take the leprosy example. Yes, it was not reasonable that the leper would be healed, but the unmistakable evidence was that he was healed. His reason could not deny that the leprosy was gone. This is what ultimately moves him to faith. Yes, it took a “leap of faith” for him to dip himself in the first place, but isolated miracles like this offer immediate support for, or denial of, justification for the faith. How would he have reacted if he had NOT been healed? Would he believe, on faith alone, that he was healed just because it was promised him? If he did believe that, how long would his belief continue as the disease progressed, pain increased, and his body failed more?

Would people have believed on faith that Elijah had ascended into heaven if they saw his dead body? Would people have believed that there was handwriting on the wall if no one saw it? I could go on and on.

Each of those cases are examples where reason trumped expectation, and all were verifiable to some extent by the people there. None of them literally contradicted reasoned observance; what they contradicted was reasonable expectation, and it was the evidence of their senses that proved to them their expectation was wrong and forced them to re-think (re-reason) their expectations and view of the world.

God made us rational beings (most of us at least!), so we must be able to reconcile our beliefs with our senses. They need to co-exist, or we will be burdened with cognitive dissonance that can be very damaging psychologically.

In the case of evolution, if you try to tell someone that the genesis story is literally true, as is the rest of the Bible, you will run into major roadblocks because (so far at least), all the scientific evidence points to an evolutionary process for the origins of our physical world. Does it answer everything yet? No. Is there any major evidence that denies evolution while clearly supporting a “young Earth” or a 6, 24-hour day creation of all life? No.

Further, a person listening to your assertions on faith that Genesis is literally true will then be skeptical of the entire Bible, since it is all associated with Genesis.

For this case, the evidence and the Genesis story directly contradict each other unless you understand the Genesis story as just that–a story. As soon as you remove the literal interpretation, reason says that the story can be believable, and we can attempt to reconcile our faith in the ultimate Truth of the message with what our reason understands of the development of life.

People who already have faith may be able to steadfastly deny evolution and choose to believe in a literal reading of Genesis, but for those who do not yet have faith this would be a major obstacle to their coming to faith. For many with a young faith, this dissonance causes them to lose faith and doubt God. This is why it is so dangerous to adamantly demand a literal Genesis reading, when it ultimately has no bearing on our faith in God.

I hope this makes it more clear.

Peace,
javelin
 
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deb1:
Doesn’t it state in the bible that nature itself bears witness to God’s existence? If God put out fossils just to test our belief wouldn’t he be going against the bible?
Actually, the “God is not a deceptive God” can be used on either side of the argument. Either He tried to deceive us by creating the world with the appearance of age and history, or he tried to deceive us by giving us a story about the creation of the universe that is no literally true.

I think it’s more amazing that God could have started with only a Big Bang and an intelligent design, knowing that His design was so perfect that every occurrance in this incredibly complex system was setup for humanity’s rise to dominance, fall, and salvation by His Son billions of years later.
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deb1:
Someone answer me this, if there were only Adam and Eve and their offspring existing at the begining of history then where did Cain get his wife?
His wife would have been another of Adam and Eve’s offspring. Or, perhaps, one of the male children of Adam and Eve mated with Eve herself.

Baiscally, the theory that all human life came from only Adam and Eve requires LOTS of in-breeding. :o

Peace,
javelin
 
I posted this on another thread but don’t know how to link to it:

I learned these things in the Great Adventure Bible study by Jeff Cavins. He said Catholics are bound to believe the following 9 things in regard to Genesis:
  1. creation of all things by God at the beginning of time
  2. special creation of man
  3. formation of first woman from man
  4. unity of the human race - we all have common parents (otherwise original sin could not be ‘transmitted’ if we came from a ‘group of people’)
  5. original happiness of our first parents
  6. divine command placed upon man to prove his obedience
  7. man’s transgression of that command at the instigation of the devil by the serpent
  8. fall of our first parents from the state of innocence
  9. the promise of a future Redeemer
    http://newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1087776
 
Elzee,

Nice list.

The only thing in this list that I don’t think is clear is #4. Did we come from Adam and Eve, or Adam or Eve?

I guess it could be a bit of both. There could have been a “group” of almost-humans, then came Adam and from him (in some way), Eve. They “group” continued to life and procreate, but only the genetic offspring of Adam and Eve were blessed with souls, and only they survived long-term, thus we are all descended from them.
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Elzee:
I posted this on another thread but don’t know how to link to it:

I learned these things in the Great Adventure Bible study by Jeff Cavins. He said Catholics are bound to believe the following 9 things in regard to Genesis:
  1. creation of all things by God at the beginning of time
  2. special creation of man
  3. formation of first woman from man
  4. unity of the human race - we all have common parents (otherwise original sin could not be ‘transmitted’ if we came from a ‘group of people’)
  5. original happiness of our first parents
  6. divine command placed upon man to prove his obedience
  7. man’s transgression of that command at the instigation of the devil by the serpent
  8. fall of our first parents from the state of innocence
  9. the promise of a future Redeemerhttp://newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1087776
Thanks!

Peace,
javelin
 
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deb1:
Doesn’t it state in the bible that nature itself bears witness to God’s existence? If God put out fossils just to test our belief wouldn’t he be going against the bible?
He didn’t put fossils in rocks to test our belief.

Peace

Tim
 
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