Creationism and life in general

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I had said:

Indeed, creating using a deficient process is worse than directly creating without such a process.

This should be:

Indeed, creating using a deficient process would be bad, while directly creating without such a process is fine.

(As we know from science, the latter is not how God creates the material world, but we know from faith that God uses special creation for the spiritual realm.)
 
I have not encountered the Argument from Reason before, will spend some time reading that CS Lewis article.

Is it similar to the Problem of Induction? Which is a basic belief assumed by all of logic and science (basically you cannot say that what was oberved in past will necessarily hold true in the future)
O.k., finally here is my response to your post. The argument takes several forms, but you already subscribe to it when you said before in this thread “the lack of free will really does lead to an impossibilty of proving any statement is true or not”. In the same vein, my article that you like argues that without genuinely free choice rationality is impossible. This basically comes down to C.S. Lewis’s classical argument that Ground and Consequent in rational thought processes must be in some sense independent from cause and effect (in the brain).

From C.S. Lewis’s article, “The Cardinal Difficulty of Naturalism”:

philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/Intro/csl3.html

“But unfortunately the two systems [ground and consequent, cause and effect] are wholly distinct. To be caused is not to be proved. Wishful thinkings, prejudices, and the delusions of madness, are all caused, but they are ungrounded. Indeed to be caused is so different from being proved that we behave in disputation as if they were mutually exclusive. The mere existence of causes for a belief is popularly treated as raising a presumption that it is groundless, and the most popular way of discrediting a person’s opinions is to explain them causally–‘You say that because (Cause and Effect) you are a capitalist, or a hypochondriac, or a mere man, or only a woman’. The implication is that if causes fully account for a belief, then, since causes work inevitably, the belief would have had to arise whether it had grounds or not. We need not, it is felt, consider grounds for something which can be fully explained without them.” {End quote]

The remainder of the article is just as hard-hitting.

Other forms of the argument from reason relate to abstract thinking, the recognition of absolute truth (for example certain mathematical truths), and comparison of the human mind with computers. Stephen Barr argues along those lines in his book that I mentioned. It is really worth having – one of the very best books on religion and science out there, without a doubt.

The problem with something like absolute truth or complex abstract thinking is that it is not reasonably explainable by survival value in evolution. Even the atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel says in his excellent book on the objectivity of rational thought, The Last Word, that the evolutionary explanation of the human mind is (verbatim quote) “laughably inadequate”. It is puzzling that other atheists simply don’t see that.
Actually, I must say that I don’t really have many reasons for believing that God exists - it’s more a case of I believe in God as if I don’t there’s no free will, morality and life and existence makes no sense - if I went out to a school and shot a dozen children it would be any different at all to just living a normal life.
Yes, atheists have to live as if they had free will, because there is no other way in practical life. However, if there is no free will, then life is just a Grand Delusion. So who is living in a delusion, theists or atheists?
I did think that the cosmological argument was quite good but now it seems that it may be explained by brane theory and multiverses (which would also answer the fine tuning argument).
I explain in chapter 1.4 of my cosmological article

home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/cosmological-arguments-god.htm

why the multiverse does not solve the design problem. The argument (which is not originally mine) must carry weight, since in discussions at commonsenseatheism.com other parts of my article were ferociously attacked (with insubstantial arguments in my view), but never this part.

The cosmological argument still holds since, as I show in chapter 2 of my article, eternal matter and eternal fields would have to behave very differently from what we know from science about actual matter and fields – an atheist needs to negate data from science if s/he wants to believe in a naturalistic origin of the universe. (So much for the “scientific worldview”!)
I do also find it strange that the basic physical equations are so simple and elegant and how the sense of natural order to the universe. However quantum physics does pose a problem to this as it seems to be completely the opposite case, undeterminate and complex.
That quantum physics is indeterminate does not make the basic physical equations complex, as far as I know (I am not an expert).
 
Catholics believe in a transcendent personal God Who is a Pure Spirit wIthout restrictions.
A God who can be described is a God with restrictions.

If God is “Pure Spirit” then God cannot be, either in whole or in part, material.

If God is omniscient then God cannot learn anything new.

Whatever words are used to describe God exclude their opposite. An unrestricted God cannot be described.

rossum
 
A God who can be described is a God with restrictions.
Restrictions are offered by humans who are created. The created do not have more power than their Creator.
If God is “Pure Spirit” then God cannot be, either in whole or in part, material.
True. But being the Creator, God can take on the nature of the created.
If God is omniscient then God cannot learn anything new.
God, being omniscient, does not depend on learning as the created do.
Whatever words are used to describe God exclude their opposite. An unrestricted God cannot be described.
Human words are never adequate to describe the Creator. Thus, the words of the created do run into trouble.
 
I’m delighted! It follows that far from being rare events our infinitely loving God is intervening far more frequently than we are aware. Otherwise life on earth would have become extinct several times and natural disasters would occur far more often than they do - without even taking into account His answers to our prayers. Deo Gratias.
That is precisely what I had in mind when I made the point that God intervenes far more frequently than we are aware! The tremendous odds against survival on this dangerous planet and the development of immensely complex organisms demand a more convincing explanation than **natural **selection - which you seem to regard as sufficient.
… so you could say that God is either not very good at intervening to stop life from going extinct or he’s not very good at creating life and continually destroys creations of his for whatever reasons.
Can you explain how natural disasters can be obviated without defeating the purpose of creating a developing universe?
I don’t know if you’re a ID proponent or a more literal creationist so it’s hard for me to know where you’re going with this.
I’m amazed you believe in God at all when you dwell on His alleged incompetence and destructiveness - without being able to offer an explanation… :rolleyes:
 
Even against the evidence. This is what I am being held back from. I refuse to believe in a literal adam and eve.
I am unable to convert because of this.
You don’t have to. I don’t personally know any Catholics who do believe in a literal Adam and Eve unconnected to the rest of the hominid community. I suppose there are some. I’m speaking at the Catholic Theological Society of American meeting in June, and I can ask around.
 
Even against the evidence.

This is what I am being held back from. I refuse to believe in a literal adam and eve.
I am unable to convert because of this.
I suppose you have read the recent discussion “Modern Genetics and Adam & Eve” on the Sacred Scripture forum. The 2002 Church document “Communion and Stewardship” either supports the polygenism option or, at the very least, is intentionally ambiguous about the issue monogenism/polygenism.
 
You don’t have to. I don’t personally know any Catholics who do believe in a literal Adam and Eve unconnected to the rest of the hominid community. I suppose there are some. I’m speaking at the Catholic Theological Society of American meeting in June, and I can ask around.
Adam and Eve: Real People
It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).
In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).
The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).Source
 
StAnastasia’s signature:

“Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism.” ~ Communion and Stewardship (2002)

Communion and Stewardship rocks.
 
That is precisely what I had in mind when I made the point that God intervenes far more frequently than we are aware! The tremendous odds against survival on this dangerous planet and the development of immensely complex organisms demand a more convincing explanation than **natural **selection
So in the earthquake last week in Lorca, our nearest city, where nine people died and many were left homeless, God was unsuccessful in stopping pressure between the African and Eurasian tectonic plates from causing a quake? God not only made an imperfect world where quakes happen but also has to battle continuously against nature and sometimes loses?

To be fair it’s not just you tonyrey, having read through the thread I’ll admit to not understanding any of the theology. In summary it sounds like the modern trend is to replace simple faith in God Almighty with an intricate belief in a vaguely incompetent tribal mascot who embarrassingly has to intervene all over the shop, only of course not whenever a scientist is looking on.

But this is just me being too thick to understand such sophisticated philosophy.

Or not. 😃
 
Um, that there is no physical evidence to back it up? What could you put in the history/biology book?

Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe the world was created in 6 days by the God of Abraham, based upon a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis.

I mean what else?

Fossils being a different levels, carbon dating, and science in general point to evolution. Yes, at the current time it is a theory, but then again, so was every scientific fact at one point or another.
Just to be clear, the Theory of Gravitational Attraction is still a theory. Theories never become anything else. Over time, the evidence either confirms, denies, or leads people to revise the theories. In the case of Evolution and Natural Selection, there is more than a century of evidence, probably collected by millions of people. That is hard to refute, but an occasional oddball comes along who tries. That is good too. Theories may always be challenged. Many which have been accepted for long periods of time get turned on their heads by new findings, or the proposition of a better theory.
 
So in the earthquake last week in Lorca, our nearest city, where nine people died and many were left homeless, God was unsuccessful in stopping pressure between the African and Eurasian tectonic plates from causing a quake? God not only made an imperfect world where quakes happen but also has to battle continuously against nature and sometimes loses?
Precisely, it’s readily apparent how silly ID makes God out to be and yet people still cling so fervently to this senile, ineffectual thing they call God.

Frankly, I think it’s blasphemy, a God like this who can’t even stop earthquakes would never have managed to create a universe that didn’t implode on itself in the first nanosecond of its existence :rolleyes:
But this is just me being too thick to understand such sophisticated philosophy.
Or perhaps, too* sophisticated* to understand such *thick *philosophy? 😉
The 10,987th time someone has quoted Catholic Answers, the CCC or Humani Generis
Yes, we already know that - please note that posting the same documents over and over again ad nauseam isn’t going to magically make the problem go away.
 
Yes, we already know that - please note that posting the same documents over and over again ad nauseam isn’t going to magically make the problem go away.
Perhaps the 5,243rd quotation of “Communion and Stewardship” will help with the problem 😉
 
Even against the genetic evidence?
May I respectfully point out that the genetic evidence which you presented some time ago is dated around 1994-1995.

While some of the methods, materials, and conclusions of this early research are valid, the universal extrapolations are not warranted by the genetc evidence. In simple words – the possibilty of two founders of humanity does exist. Divine Revelation trumps.

Out of respect for the evolution discussion ban, I request that if you have any other scientfic citations, it would be appropriate to post them in the Back Fence Forum.
 
So in the earthquake last week in Lorca, our nearest city, where nine people died and many were left homeless, God was unsuccessful in stopping pressure between the African and Eurasian tectonic plates from causing a quake? God not only made an imperfect world where quakes happen but also has to battle continuously against nature and sometimes loses?D
Inocente, I presume the people of Lorca were no more evil and in need of chastisement than the people of Barcelona.
 
May I respectfully point out that the genetic evidence which you presented some time ago is dated around 1994-1995. I am aware of new available evidence and changes to computer models which impact the older speculations.
Can you present that to us? I have not hear of this evidence, even though I have work with geneticists.
 
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