Creationism and life in general

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inocente said:
Science. The first two sentences of the quote “These two heritages are logically, thoroughly consistent. But logic is not all; one needs one’s heart to follow an idea.” We have two valuable and logically consistent heritages – humility of the intellect from science and humility of the spirit from Christ. So he asks the stupid (i.e. top dollar) question. Why can’t we take what’s spiritual from science into church, and vice versa? Do these two heritages have to be mutually exclusive or is there a third way where both may have to give up something in order to gain much more?

He never worked out an answer, but it’s a great question to ask.
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It’s been said that science was fostered and blossomed so well in the west because the notion of a God of reason and order helped humankind overcome superstition and the idea that we were totally in the hands of a capricious universe-and therefore to cultivate their own powers of reason. Of course, many of the top scientists into modern times have been religious-sometimes priests. Other than the contribution of this worldview, religion may have little directly to offer science, but, OTOH, as they both endeavor to seek truth, I find less and less of a clear distinction between them anyway- and more mutuality.
 
fhansen said:
Other than the contribution of this worldview, religion may have little directly to offer science, but, OTOH, as they both endeavor to seek truth, I find less and less of a clear distinction between them anyway- and more mutuality.
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fhansen, there is a big difference between science and religion, as there should be. It is disastrous to mix two endeavours of human thought that begin with different assumptions, methodologies, and foundational principles. The world has just witnessed a good example of why this is wrong in Harold Camping’s prediction of an imminent apocalypse to hit the globe yesterday.

That being said, I am a strong proponent of dialogue between practitioners of science and of religion, on questions at their interface. Such questions are raised by cosmology, physics, evolutionary biology, and neuroscience. Check out the International Society for Science and Religion and you’ll see more more testimonials to the dialogical approach.

StAnastasia
 
tonyrey said:
Have you considered what would happen if God prevented every natural disaster and human atrocity?
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It seems to me that there would be fewer opportunities for us to grow in love. Not to mention, that to understand and choose “good” over evil, that there must be “evil” beside it. Not to mention that what we see as disasters in this life will pale in comparison to our joy in the next life, and that’s what’s really important, not joy in this life.

Funny that StA doesn’t get it.
 
StAnastasia said:
That being said, I am a strong proponent of dialogue between practitioners of science and of religion, on questions at their interface.
StAnastasia
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Well, often they’re one and the same person. The point is that religion and science must have the same goals-the pursuit of truth. Wherever either one succeeds in this endeavor, we’re better off. The statement, “God exists” or “Jesus was resurrected from the dead”, for example, is either a truth, both scientific-whether or not provable at this point by scientific method-as well as theological, or its a falsehood. As St Augustine once said, “All truth, is Gods’ truth.” There should be no conflict.
 
StAnastasia said:
The victims of all the recent tornadoes would be jumping for joy!
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Exactly, it is much the same question as the “Why couldn’t God create a better world?” often asked by atheists.

If God intervenes some of the time as many believers do, why doesn’t he intervene more often?

Why does he intervene to help you get that new job but doesn’t answer the prayers of the mother in Africa whose children are starving to death.

People simply don’t think about this much - they fail to see the huge discrepancy between an interventionist God and the complete lack of evidence for that kind of intervention.
 
razredge said:
Exactly, it is much the same question as the “Why couldn’t God create a better world?” often asked by atheists.

With all due respect to my atheist friends, I would say the question is poorly worded. It assumes that what a creator envisions as a good world is the same as what we envision as a good world.
If God intervenes some of the time as many believers do, why doesn’t he intervene more often?
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Well, often they’re one and the same person.
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True – my friend George Coyne says that astronomy gives him more to pray about. But while he may pray while working, he does not assume that his prayer is causing stellar evolution.
The point is that religion and science must have the same goals-the pursuit of truth.
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True, but they have different methodologies. Preparing for a marathon, playing chess, and cooking a four-star meal all have the same goal, but they have different methodologies.
“All truth, is Gods’ truth.” There should be no conflict.
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There is no conflict, so long as we observe the integrity of each discipline. We don’t use biblical hermeneutics to identify HIV particles. We don’t use ballistics to determine the wrongness of murder.
 
StAnastasia said:
I want to know why God so frequently has it in for trailer parks inhabited by faithful Christians, leaving sophisticated urban atheists in their rent-controlled midtown Manhattan apartment unscathed.
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Are you a Calvinist? (Calvin believed not a drop of rain falls without the express command of God!)
 
ricmat said:
It seems to me that there would be fewer opportunities for us to grow in love. Not to mention, that to understand and choose “good” over evil, that there must be “evil” beside it.
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That is certainly one reason but it isn’t the only one! 🙂
 
razredge said:
If God intervenes some of the time as many believers do, why doesn’t he intervene more often?

Why does he intervene to help you get that new job but doesn’t answer the prayers of the mother in Africa whose children are starving to death.

People simply don’t think about this much - they fail to see the huge discrepancy between an interventionist God and the complete lack of evidence for that kind of intervention.
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There is a vast discrepancy between your understanding and God’s understanding of the ramifications and consequences of constant interventions…
 
razredge said:
StAnastasia;7898975:
Yes, I always ask believers how God decides whose prayers to answer if they are in conflict. Most people say ‘those who trust most in Him’ or similar, then I always ask them why we didn’t win the Crusades :rolleyes:
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Do you believe God favours those who commit atrocities? :rolleyes:
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tonyrey said:
I didn’t know that was the very first natural disaster in history… :rolleyes:
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It wasn’t, but it marked a turning point in the thinking of divine providence as it devastated the largest city of a devoutly Catholic country.
There is a vast discrepancy between your understanding and God’s understanding of the ramifications and consequences of constant interventions…
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So what’s your view then, do you think God will cure your cold and get you that new job but not intervene to save starving children? Do you think he grants favours to everyone who’s prayers are sincere enough?
Do you believe God favours those who commit atrocities?
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Oh, so you’re not one of those who believe the Muslims are Satan worshipping pagans and that the Crusades were justified (I mean they were started by the Pope and as I’ve been told countless times he is infallible ).

In that case - he favours neither (at least if ‘favours’ means intervene on their behalf) - Hitler is a perfect example of this, God had no qualms about Hitler exterminating 6 million of his chosen people.
tonyrey said:
StAnastasia;7898975:
What evidence is there that God specialises in singling out Christians to be the victims of disasters? :confused:
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What evidence is there that Christians have divine protection from or are less likely to be the victims of disasters?
None whatsoever, as thousands of Lisbon -ers discovered first hand one November morning
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ricmat said:
It seems to me that there would be fewer opportunities for us to grow in love. Not to mention, that to understand and choose “good” over evil, that there must be “evil” beside it. Not to mention that what we see as disasters in this life will pale in comparison to our joy in the next life, and that’s what’s really important, not joy in this life.

Funny that StA doesn’t get it.
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tonyrey said:
No one would be free to choose what to believe or how to live. Life would be a circus of zombies!
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Earthquake victims die their pointless deaths so the rest of us can grow in love and have free choice?

Be careful where you go with that bro’s. I remember Dawkins debating an English theologian (can’t think of his name) about where God was in the Holocaust. The theologian argued its purpose was to give the camp guards a chance to repent, a stunningly despicable argument which Dawkins shredded, as well he should.

We can’t honor victims by inventing a purpose for ourselves, all we can do is remember and work to prevent more victims.
 
tonyrey said:
Are you a Calvinist? (Calvin believed not a drop of rain falls without the express command of God!)
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As you’re handing out your labels again, can I be a Calvinist too? Pretty please?

“He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous” (Matt 5:45). Remove the reference to God and the rest is a scientific statement, empirically testable. You don’t think it might suggest, big-time, that God never intervenes?
 
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