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StAnastasia
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Of course.
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ricmat
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We don’t know why particular people die in earthquakes, or other disasters. God does know.
If we grow in love, then their death’s were not pointless. If they offer their suffering up (sharing the cross so to speak), then their suffering is not pointless.
Of course we should help the victims (I’m not sure how to prevent earthquakes). And we should not seek out needless suffering for ourselves or others. But when suffering happens anyway, which it inevitably does, we should accept what happens as an opportunity rather than a curse.
I didn’t invent the purpose we’re talking about. Jesus said that we need to carry a cross to follow him.
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StAnastasia
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StAnastasia;7898975:
God doesn’t specialize in singling out Christians. But neither does God specialize in singling out towns that allow gay pride flags to be flown along the streets, as Pat Robertson opined a few years back.What evidence is there that God specialises in singling out Christians to be the victims of disasters?
Natural disaster have a certain randomness, but also a certain pattern. They don’t target particular houses or schools or churches, but they do occur in specific places. Earthquakes tend to happen on earthquake faults; tornadoes tend to happen in “Tornado Alley,” and hurricanes tend to happen along the Gulf Coast. Why Christians choose to live in trailers in tornado country is another matter.
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
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razredge;7899067:
No.Do you believe God favours those who commit atrocities?
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grannymh
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I am happy to engage with current scientific thinking when I find it in the Back Fence forum.
As long as you brought up science, may I offer my observation about theology discussions in life in general?
For example, I’ve read about three kinds on CAF.
So far, I have discovered these kinds of modern theology. 1. General theology which includes its history and an overview of various traditional theologies from pagan to Christian. 2. Secular theology which dialogs with science. 3. Catholic theology which dialogs with God.
Blessings,
granny
Human life is sacred.
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StAnastasia
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Granny, that is a bogus distinction. (1) There is no such thing as “general theology,” at least not recognizable to professional theologians. (2) 'Secular theology" is a contradiction in terms. (3) Catholic theology has many aspects to it, and discusses many different questions, most of which involve the theologian in engaging in dialogue with contemporary society and its sciences.
StAnastasia
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inocente
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The victims of the Holocaust died so they could share the cross?
We can make buildings earthquake-proof.
Is it really Catholic teaching than an earthquake or a Holocaust is an opportunity? For the victims?
That don’t make sense bro - how can dead victims carry a cross?
(sorry about all the
's but all I can say is 
)
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inocente
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A jazz musician (Ellington? Buddy Rich?) said there are only two kinds of music; music that sounds good, and whatever you want to call that other stuff. And let’s face it, most Christian rock music is whatever we want to call that other stuff (straw?
), only acceptable to Christians. Imho almost all modern theology is likewise straw, incapable of bringing anyone to Christ, written only to reassure us we support the best football club.Fenyman (post #195) asked an absurd question that only great minds and children ask – Is the modern church a place to give comfort to a man who doubts God. Well OK, fair enough, why does Hindu theology have to be different from Catholic theology? If there’s one God and all people have the same needs and dreams, why all these competing football clubs, why not start afresh?
In Europe at least, the number of people going to church appears related to the distance of religionists from real spirituality. It would be nice if there was a real attempt to find a way to express and share the spirituality we all possess. You may say I’m a dreamer / But I’m not the only one / I hope someday you’ll join us / And the world will be as one
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fhansen
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Some people would say the concept that “there’s one God” is a narrowly-defined tenet of a bigot.
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inocente
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Alternatively then, how about “zero or more deities and/or symbols of belief, material and/or immaterial, expressed via a religion or otherwise, possibly indicating a common psychology shared by all people, whilst not intended to imply by any means whatsoever any abrogation or reduction of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.”
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fhansen
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Sure, or how about Adam & Eve were right to begin with-we don’t need God?
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inocente
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Do you mean we don’t need Brahman or don’t need to believe in Yahweh? Many folk seem to be getting along fine without worshiping Odin.Sure, or how about Adam & Eve were right to begin with-we don’t need God?
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ricmat
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In my post directly above your response, I said that we don’t know the details, but God does.The victims of the Holocaust died so they could share the cross?
I said we don’t know how to prevent earthquakes. Are you claiming that making buildings earthquake proof prevents earthquakes? A sort of “Murphy’s Law” perhaps?
It is an opportunity for those who survive, even for a short time. And God takes our life from us when it is best for us. I trust in God’s providence that everything that happens is somehow for our benefit. Perhaps the people who died were as close to God as they ever would be on this earth, and it would be “all downhill from here” so to speak. Perhaps, as I said. God knows, we don’t. If that were the case, their deaths prevented them from drifting further from God into the abyss.Is it really Catholic teaching than an earthquake or a Holocaust is an opportunity? For the victims?
Purgatory?
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fhansen
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It means there’s nothing superior to us that we have any reason to be attentive to-or that we can place any hope in. Either the seemingly unreasonable behavior we witness in this world-and may participate in to one degree or another- is natural for man, or things like rape, murder, torture (to name a few of the extreme “sins”) point to a disorder or pathology which can only mean that man’s in some way disobedient to something of a higher order than himself.
We have to ask a basic question, are we better off with no God-does belief in deity cause more problems than it promises to solve-or do we already carry our problems within us-and perhaps, if the Christian scenario has anything to offer, our problems have to do with being severed from something that causes an inner division that needs to be resolved before even the best intentions could ever hope to bring any real, lasting peace and harmony to this world?
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inocente
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Heh
. No, the original point was we can “work to prevent more victims”, which we can do by making stronger buildings.Not sure of the rationality that millions of Jews (Holocaust) and 18,000+ Japanese (recent death toll), etc. were close to God and needed to be prevented from drifting into the abyss, but then there’s never been any good arguments for why God allows such suffering other than a strict policy in Heaven of not interfering - the rain falls on the just and unjust alike, and so do disasters. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
No such place for a Baptist.
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inocente
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I knew an atheist who was very happy that there were religions because she thought otherwise there would be outright anarchy, collapse of civilization, etc. – it was fine that the masses believed but she personally was more intelligent!
I’m not at all sure we have to believe in the Fall and original sin to be moral animals. To me the issue is that while many in the West still accept Christian ethics, they don’t accept the need for any particular dogma. For instance, in Spain many Catholics no longer go to church anything like regularly yet remain Christian at heart. Their Christianity is very loosely defined, based around family, community, social traditions, science.
With no dogma there’s nothing to defend, no either/or, no them/us, no evolution/creationism, nada. Whether that’s a road to a new Jerusalem or a road to Hell only time will tell, but it’s happening and the Church doesn’t seem to know how to turn the tide. There seems to be a yawning disconnect between religion and many people. People still have the same needs but religion increasingly isn’t meeting them. How to fix this is well beyond me, perhaps secularism will create a new language of spirituality, I don’t know.
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fhansen
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Well, the “intelligent” part is certainly arguable. But I guess it’d be a drag if she actually had to identify with the masses.
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StAnastasia
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It sounds like you’re asking “Why did the chicken carry the cross?”That don’t make sense bro - how can dead victims carry a cross? (sorry about all the
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StAnastasia
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It sounds like an admission that atheism does not provide a foundation for morality other than a rational extension of self interest.
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ricmat
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Of course. Were you trying to make the point that Catholics (or ID supporters) are against making stronger buildings? If so, you can put your mind at rest. We support that too.Heh
If you’d like to read some religious material on the matter of why God allows suffering, you could start with “The Fulfillment of All Desire” by Ralph Martin, or this very short book:
www.vaticaninexile.com/…/Trustful_Surrender_to_Divine_Providence.pdf
You better hope that such a place of purgation exists, since you can’t be imperfect and be in heaven.No such place for a Baptist.
Time will tell.
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