Creationism and life in general

[StAnastasia]

In the UK the secular society is becoming increasingly intolerant of Christian beliefs and values under the pretext of human rights! The pseudo-scientific propaganda of Richard Dawkins gives you a good idea of its pernicious influence on the majority who now regard religion as outdated superstition.

It is understandable why British and European society would become tired of Christian beliefs and values which can themselves be fairly intolerant. My English Catholic friends say a lot of people are becoming tired of Richard Dawkins, but they are also tired of Christians forcing their views on society.

 

[ricmat]

Ricmat, I asked a couple of our staff scientists (one a biologist and the other a geologist). Their answer:

Imagine opening a big-box retail chain to compete with WalMart in the same town. The answer is that you don’t do that because you CANNOT make that work, you cannot compete with something as dominant as WalMart. It snuffs all competition. Likewise, once our successful form of life (our chirality form) began to take off, it quickly consumed and crowded out all available niches.

Imagine opening a mom and pop store to compete with MallWart in the same town.

That works.

So do Target and WalMart, and KMart. I live out in the country, but a nearby town as all 3.

Perhaps your friends are correct, but their analogy is not a slam-dunk.

(“A chiral molecule is a type of molecule that lacks an internal plane of symmetry and thus has a non-superposable mirror image.”) There is nothing to say we had to have a particular orientation–nature makes both forms. But all living things (that we know of) use the same chiral forms.

As I recall, this is all about left handed vs. right handed sugars. Yes, all life on earth is composed of one type only. And a good question might be why are there none of the other type. But that wasn’t my question. My question is much more general.

I asked them: “Does that mean we cannot test for continuing instances of spontaneous generation?”

Their Answer:

“We can indeed test, but it would be a one-in-a-trillion find. I mean, who’s to say that of all the bacteria in the world today there is not one that started from a more recent origin of life? We have no idea even the order of magnitude of how many types of bacteria there are, most having never been studied or named much less sequence.”

If most of the types of bacteria have never been studied, how do you know that we are all descended from a single organism, as in your signature?

Late edit: In the grand scheme of things, it seems to me that a single origin of life is difficult to resolve assuming that God turned on the evolution motor, then sat back and watched things happen. It also seems to me that a single origin of life is consistent with purpose, design, guidance, and “interference”.

Another Late Edit: And if random mutations and natural selection are so compelling, it seems to me that once started, it would be difficult to stop. I think you said something about this a few posts back…

 

[StAnastasia]

There are two obvious reasons. First, any new proto life will be recognised by existing life as food. How much chance does a helpless newborn have against a hungry adult tiger? Existing life has evolved many very effective means of predation over time. New life will not have had time to evolve any defences. Mmmm… tasty.
Second, life on Earth developed in a reducing atmosphere. Ever since the Oxygen Catastrophe the Earth has had an oxidising atmosphere. The chemistry of an oxidising atmosphere is not suitable for the kinds of processes that initially produced life.
rossum

Rossum, one of our staff biologists says in response to your post:

“The second bit is probably true, but we don’t know what kinds of processes could potentially produce life. Plus there are weird anoxic sites around undersea vents and so forth where anaerobes might plausibly be able to originate.”

 

[StAnastasia]

If most of the types of bacteria have never been studied, how do you know that we are all descended from a single organism, as in your signature?

My signature quotation is drawn from Communion and Stewardship. I’ll consider changing it.

 

[edwest2]

Why do you assume God would not be involved in the spontaneous generation on anther suitable planet?

I think the issue boils down to this: a synthesis of theistic and anti-theist belief systems. This happy medium would produce the one size fits all creation account. Everybody goes home happy, or so the idea goes.

Pope Benedict has spoken of the Dictatorship of Relativism. Part of what makes it work is convincing people that some things are only symbolic and ethics are situational. Truth is sacrificed in the process. It is replaced by mechanistic cause and effect.

Teaching your child that he is a child of God produces a different worldview than teaching him he was the fortuitous outcome of various blind forces. Relativism will not succeed when people know that there are foundational truths.

Peace,
Ed

 

[rossum]

It is understandable why British and European society would become tired of Christian beliefs and values which can themselves be fairly intolerant. My English Catholic friends say a lot of people are becoming tired of Richard Dawkins, but they are also tired of Christians forcing their views on society.

For the UK specifically there is also the example of the effect “Christian beliefs” had both on Northern Ireland, and on the mainland. For too many years, ‘The Troubles’ was part of the general image of Christianity in the UK.

Far too many of the rabble rousers were “Reverend XXX”, and some “Father XXX” as well. The politicians were no better of course, but to some extent we expect politicians to lie to us. We generally expect Christians to keep to their rules. In Northern Ireland for far too long far too many didn’t. In the last fifty years in the UK, Christian terrorism has killed more people than Muslim terrorism.

rossum

 

[edwest2]

Becoming tired of Christian beliefs means what? I think the assumption is that if such beliefs just disappeared, things would be fine. What God did the Bolsheviks die for?

Peace,
Ed

 

[ricmat]

I passed your question around the department, and another answer from one of my scientist colleagues:

"If the person asking were serious, and deserved a serious answer,…

how nice, snarkiness via proxy…

I’d note that modern life is highly derived, and far more efficient than any protolife would be. Thus, even if conditions conducive to a new origin of life existed on earth, it’d be outcompeted or eaten fairly rapidly by extant life. I’d be surprised if there weren’t multiple early origins of life, but intense competition between them would drive all but one extinct, or result in their merging into a single lineage."

Is there any proof, or is this speculation? It looks like speculation to me, but then I’m not an expert.

There are two obvious reasons.

First, any new proto life will be recognised by existing life as food. How much chance does a helpless newborn have against a hungry adult tiger? Existing life has evolved many very effective means of predation over time. New life will not have had time to evolve any defences. Mmmm… tasty.

Today we have all kinds of different life forms, from very elementary to very advanced. We all exist, with the elementary life forms just plain getting eaten by the more advanced ones, and still they exist. I recall reading that in terms of biomass, plankton is the most plentiful biological entity on the planet. What defense does it have against whales? Uh… none.

Second, life on Earth developed in a reducing atmosphere. Ever since the Oxygen Catastrophe the Earth has had an oxidising atmosphere. The chemistry of an oxidising atmosphere is not suitable for the kinds of processes that initially produced life.

So I guess Earth is quite rare.

 

[ricmat]

For the UK specifically there is also the example of the effect “Christian beliefs” had both on Northern Ireland, and on the mainland. For too many years, ‘The Troubles’ was part of the general image of Christianity in the UK.

Far too many of the rabble rousers were “Reverend XXX”, and some “Father XXX” as well. The politicians were no better of course, but to some extent we expect politicians to lie to us. We generally expect Christians to keep to their rules. In Northern Ireland for far too long far too many didn’t. In the last fifty years in the UK, Christian terrorism has killed more people than Muslim terrorism.

rossum

Excuse me, but I think that’s the wrong way to look at it. What I see in your example is not the effect of Christian beliefs", but rather the perversion and/or absence of Christian beliefs. Christians, alas, sometimes lie or otherwise violate their own rules as you note above. However, by definition then, they are NOT following Christianity when they don’t follow Christian rules.

But I see your point so far as it having a very negative influence on society. All the more reason to teach folks about the positive influence of Judeo-Christian influence on culture and society (of which there is much).

 

[StAnastasia]

I think the issue boils down to this: a synthesis of theistic and anti-theist belief systems. This happy medium would produce the one size fits all creation account. Everybody goes home happy, or so the idea goes.

No, there need not be anything anti-theistic about spontaneous generation, unless you insist on excluding God. Remember, with an infinite God a lot of things are possible.

Teaching your child that he is a child of God produces a different worldview than teaching him he was the fortuitous outcome of various blind forces.

 

[rossum]

Excuse me, but I think that’s the wrong way to look at it. What I see in your example is not the effect of Christian beliefs", but rather the perversion and/or absence of Christian beliefs. Christians, alas, sometimes lie or otherwise violate their own rules as you note above. However, by definition then, they are NOT following Christianity when they don’t follow Christian rules.

Unfortunately if people proclaim loudly and for a long time that they are Christian then other people tend to believe them; Fred Phelps for example. I know he is grossly unrepresentative but he does have an impact on the image of Christianity.

Throughout history religions have been used as an excuse for violence. Northern Ireland is just a recent example in the UK. It did have an effect on the perception of Christianity here.

But I see your point so far as it having a very negative influence on society. All the more reason to teach folks about the positive influence of Judeo-Christian influence on culture and society (of which there is much).

Agreed, there are both positive and negative influences. Both Saint Francis of Assisi and Torquemada.

rossum

 

[ricmat]

Today we have all kinds of different life forms, from very elementary to very advanced. We all exist, with the elementary life forms just plain getting eaten by the more advanced ones, and still they exist. I recall reading that in terms of biomass, plankton is the most plentiful biological entity on the planet. What defense does it have against whales? Uh… none.

I wish to make a correction to my comment above. I mistakenly stated that plankton have no defense against whales.

There is a defense that plankton have against whales. The plankton multiply so quickly and to such an extent, that the whales gorge themselves, and then die of obesity.

[just kidding]

 

[ricmat]

Quote from edwest2:
Teaching your child that he is a child of God produces a different worldview than teaching him he was the fortuitous outcome of various blind forces.

With regard to the second one.

Teaching your child that “he was the fortuitous outcome of various blind forces.”

Because there is an infinite God, it can be true that your child is “the fortuitous outcome of various blind forces?”

Fortuitous:

1. Happening by chance; coming or occuring unexpectedly, or
   without any known cause; chance; as, the fortuitous
   concourse of atoms.
   [1913 Webster]

Even if you believe that “chance” had a lot to do with us, what about the rest.

God is not a “known cause?”
His children “occurred unexpectedly?”
God is a “blind” force?

You lost me.

 

[grannymh]

Read.

Maybe I need to read standing on my head to come up with your evaluation.
No matter. …
That document pales before the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

 

[StAnastasia]

Unfortunately if people proclaim loudly and for a long time that they are Christian then other people tend to believe them; Fred Phelps for example. I know he is grossly unrepresentative but he does have an impact on the image of Christianity.

Speaking of Christian misrepresentation:

"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed — the 2008 creationist propaganda movie fronted by Ben Stein — is scheduled to be auctioned, lock, stock, and barrel, pursuant to the bankruptcy proceeding of Premise Media Holdings LP. According to a document (PDF) filed in the United States Bankruptcy Court of the Northern District of Texas, Dallas Division, on May 31, 2011, the trustee of the bankruptcy estate is seeking to auction “[t]hat certain feature-length motion picture (‘Picture’) ‘Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed’ and all collateral, allied, ancillary, subsidiary and merchandising rights therein and thereto, and all properties and things of value pertaining thereto.” The auction is scheduled to take place on-line from June 23 to June 28, 2011.

“The high bidder will become the owner of the movie that The New York Times (2008 Apr 18) described as “[o]ne of the sleaziest documentaries to arrive in a very long time … a conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry … an unprincipled propaganda piece that insults believers and nonbelievers alike” and that was denounced by the American Association for the Advancement of Science for its “profound dishonesty” and condemned by the Anti-Defamation League for its “outrageous” misuse of the Holocaust to “tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution.” (NCSE’s Expelled Exposed provides a collection of reviews, commentary, and resources documenting the extensive problems with Expelled.) Caveat emptor!”

ncse.com/news/2011/06/expelled-block-006695

 

[ricmat]

Speaking of Christian misrepresentation:

"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed — the 2008 creationist propaganda movie fronted by Ben Stein — is scheduled to be auctioned, lock, stock, and barrel, pursuant to the bankruptcy proceeding of Premise Media Holdings LP. According to a document (PDF) filed in the United States Bankruptcy Court of the Northern District of Texas, Dallas Division, on May 31, 2011, the trustee of the bankruptcy estate is seeking to auction “[t]hat certain feature-length motion picture (‘Picture’) ‘Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed’ and all collateral, allied, ancillary, subsidiary and merchandising rights therein and thereto, and all properties and things of value pertaining thereto.” The auction is scheduled to take place on-line from June 23 to June 28, 2011.

“The high bidder will become the owner of the movie that The New York Times (2008 Apr 18) described as “[o]ne of the sleaziest documentaries to arrive in a very long time … a conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry … an unprincipled propaganda piece that insults believers and nonbelievers alike” and that was denounced by the American Association for the Advancement of Science for its “profound dishonesty” and condemned by the Anti-Defamation League for its “outrageous” misuse of the Holocaust to “tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution.” (NCSE’s Expelled Exposed provides a collection of reviews, commentary, and resources documenting the extensive problems with Expelled.) Caveat emptor!”

ncse.com/news/2011/06/expelled-block-006695

I thought Ben Stein was Jewish.

 

[edwest2]

No, there need not be anything anti-theistic about spontaneous generation, unless you insist on excluding God. Remember, with an infinite God a lot of things are possible.

 

[grannymh]

The first quote from Saint Thomas Aquinas was buried in the other text. Extracting it gives:
According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1).
In the language of Saint Thomas, “contingency” here means “chance” while “necessity” means “causation”.

God can work either through causation or through chance. He is God and things happen “infallibly” the way He wants them to happen.

HTH

rossum

Seems to me that the operative words are Divine Providence. No matter.
Not every word written by St. Thomas Aquinas has been automatically turned into Catholic Dogma. In fact, some of his writings are now being debated six ways to Sunday.

In the Catholic Church, Divine Revelation trumps

Currently, I’m into Aquinas on Creation, Writings on the “Sentences” of Peter Lombard, Book2, Distinction 1, Question 1. The introduction was fascinating with its insight of the times in which Aquinas wrote.

 

[Al_Moritz]

My signature quotation is drawn from Communion and Stewardship. I’ll consider changing it.

I don’t see anything wrong with it. But perhaps a good substitute would be, also given what you said in # 624, the following statement (or the first sentence thereof) from the same document:

[But] it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, ] even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation.

 

[StAnastasia]

I thought Ben Stein was Jewish.

Christians funded "Expelled.’