Creator and operator of the universe, what's wrong with this concept of God?

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You stated that your question was mainly for atheists – and how many atheists do you think you’ll find Here?! I’d assume that Catholics Do believe in God. And those who are Not Catholic – like myself – Still would be here with a belief system based on a belief in God.

A comment has also been made that believing in something doesn’t make it real except to the person who believes it. Well – I believe in the existence of gravity. I Know it exists – I can see and feel the effects of it. If I step off my porch without using the steps – I don’t float up and away – the force of gravity pulls me to the ground. And I Might injure my ankle or wrist in the process of falling. And leaves falling off a tree – unless the wind or a breeze picks them up – they also fall to the ground.

There is also love, peace, joy in this world – I believe in those ‘things’ and I ‘feel’ those things - a person can see ‘love’ in action – joy on a person’s face – as well as ‘peace’

And Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… and everything in it. That is not my personal wishful thinking or hoping. Because John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by Me.” Jesus Christ is / was God incarnate / God in the flesh.
 
Hmm…what about those who don’t particularly enjoy the universe? I mean, it is good for what it is (a kind of functioning system), but what is that to me, an immortal soul (or at least a res cogitans that believes itself to be an immortal soul)?

If God was only the Creator and Ruler of the Universe, I would congratulate Him on his craftsmanship, and respectfully request to take my leave of His Creation at His earliest convenience, wishing Him, and the Universe, all the best with their future endeavours, before bidding them a happy farewell.

But I would have no reason to love such a God, or desire His company. The thing that makes God to-be-loved as (Deus Amandus), as opposed to simply a God-to-be-admired (Deus Mirandus), is that He offers as a passport of redemption out of this universe- via the way of following the Gospel.
 
Thanks everyone for your reactions.

How many atheists are here in this forum?

I can imagine that there are quite a number of atheists here: because they do want to find out whether their merely lack of belief in any God, gods, goddesses, divinities, deities, flying spaghetti monsters, invisible unicorns, tooth fairies, celestial teapots , etc., can be and are toppled by appeal to sincere and intelligent reasoning from the part of Christian theists here.

That is why they don’t care to come forward, because they don’t want to experience the discomfort of being toppled.

Now about others here, you are not happy with my adding operator to God’s role in addition to creator.

Okay, if you prefer, I will just skip that word operator from my description of the concept of God.

Now, does that make you more happy?

However, skipping a word that is not happy with you, that does not mean that the concept of operator is not applicable to God, it is just for the sake of good pr with you: because you want to save God from being implicated in the evil deeds of man.

So, there, you are now off the hook from having to implicate God as responsible for the evil deeds of man, and therefore you save what, the free will of man?

As I said already, that is a mystery to myself as well, that God being creator of man and the universe, including of course everything in man and in the universe that is not God Himself, it cannot be taken otherwise on logic but human logic that God is thereby like a puppet master and man is the puppet, wherefore man is not responsible for his evil deeds.

Have I not said so many times already that first things first: God is creator of literally everything that man knows to exist and will know to exist that is not God Himself, and that God is all just, and that God created man in His own image, namely, in that respect that man is a free and intelligent being, just like God but not in the same degree of intelligence as with God – for God from my own reasoning cannot create another being as intelligent as He is Himself.

So, that is the conundrum from your part, that God being creator of everything, then He must be accountable for the evil deeds man does, but man is also taught by the Church to be responsible owing to the faculty of free will God has endowed man with.

There, that is the conundrum with you folks who are into some perplexity, but call that a mystery.

Now, can we just proceed to the question whether you also theists even though you cannot accept God to be operator of the universe, that from the concept that God is the creator of man and the universe, then we can and do know God to exist in the universe in the concept of God as creator of man and the universe.

Ah, you will again go into the conundrum that then God is also the creator of the evil deeds man does.

Let us put that conundrum in abeyance i.e. in the shelf of your mind for later examination, just first things first, can we already proceed to the universe to look for God in the concept as creator of the universe, starting with the most convenient and easiest part to look for God in, namely, in ourselves, starting with the nose in our face, that is the part of the universe, namely, man, ourselves, and (not to be funny, but actually most sincere and serious), with our nose.

That is what I look forward to deal with, namely, with atheists who just merely only simply lack belief in the existence of God, gods, goddesses, divinities, deities, flying spaghetti monsters, invisible pink unicorns, tooth fairies, celestial teapots (contribution of B. Russell, aka as * forgive me, failed philosopher and mathematician, but consummate lover of women – no offense intended though against women ]*.

Here you go again, “But then God is also creator of the evil deeds that man does, etc., etc., etc.”

Please, for the nth time, please just to put that matter in abeyance for later examination or in another thread, because we want us all to concentrate on God in concept as creator of the universe of which man is a part.

Okay, atheists who are here and lurking here, please come forward and tell me what is wrong with the concept of God as creator of the universe; and you already theists please just keep quiet on your oh so smart playing the devil’s advocate, “But then God is responsible also for man’s evil deeds,” will you just hold your peace; or tell me what is wrong with the concept of God as creator of the universe, INSOFAR AS CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE IS CONCERNED, SO THAT EVEN THOUGH HE CREATES EVIL, SO BE IT FOR THE SAKE OF THIS THREAD MOVING FORWARD.

If you are so intent with that conundrum, please start another thread on it, but still you have to already hold to the premise first that God is the creator of the universe.

KingCoil
 
None of those scenarios describe my beliefs. I do not believe that god created man so he is worthy of neither blame or praise in their actions, depending on the circumstance. God may have instituted the beginning of creation, or been there near the beginning…there is no way of knowing at present. As a Deist I just don’ totally preclude the possibility of a superior intelligence, even a force of some type.

I just don’t believe that any of the world religions has even come close to the answer. Nor are they likely to in my lifetime.
 
oldcelt said:
None of those scenarios describe my beliefs. I do not believe that god created man so he is worthy of neither blame or praise in their actions, depending on the circumstance. God may have instituted the beginning of creation, or been there near the beginning…there is no way of knowing at present. As a Deist I just don’ totally preclude the possibility of a superior intelligence, even a force of some type.

I just don’t believe that any of the world religions has even come close to the answer. Nor are they likely to in my lifetime.
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"None of those scenarios describe my beliefs. I do not believe that god created man so he is worthy of neither blame or praise in their actions, depending on the circumstance.

Hold it there, oldcelt.

I read your whole message above, and forgive me, but you should all the time exert yourself to be coherent and consistent with your thinking and writing.

You say, “I do not believe that god created man…”

At that point, stop, and ask yourself, who or what or how then did man ever come into existence?

You see, it is not in keeping with coherent and consistent thinking to just utter sentences, but you have to constantly think forward to what you are going to think up consecutively and how it is going to square with what you just wrote.

Then also, as you think and write or speak you all the time keep in track what is your support for the utterances you are making.

So, let me propose to you, as you say, “I do not believe that god created man,” please ask yourself right away, so who or what or how did man ever come into existence, and what is my support for the what or who or how man came into existence I am going to think up as to put into words?

And all this time you are in the realm of concepts in your mind, think further on as you work with concepts and put them into words, ask yourself:

Can I use the concepts and thoughts I am going to present to the readers of my message, the invitation to them to come with me to look for the things in the realm of objects outside my mind, corresponding to the concepts and thoughts of my mind?

KingCoil
 
KingCoil said:
"None of those scenarios describe my beliefs. I do not believe that god created man so he is worthy of neither blame or praise in their actions, depending on the circumstance.

Hold it there, oldcelt.

I read your whole message above, and forgive me, but you should all the time exert yourself to be coherent and consistent with your thinking and writing.

You say, “I do not believe that god created man…”

**At that point, stop, and ask yourself, who or what or how then did man ever come into existence?
**
You see, it is not in keeping with coherent and consistent thinking to just utter sentences, but you have to constantly think forward to what you are going to think up consecutively and how it is going to square with what you just wrote.

Then also, as you think and write or speak you all the time keep in track what is your support for the utterances you are making.

So, let me propose to you, as you say, “I do not believe that god created man,” please ask yourself right away, so who or what or how did man ever come into existence, and what is my support for the what or who or how man came into existence I am going to think up as to put into words?

And all this time you are in the realm of concepts in your mind, think further on as you work with concepts and put them into words, ask yourself:

Can I use the concepts and thoughts I am going to present to the readers of my message, the invitation to them to come with me to look for the things in the realm of objects outside my mind, corresponding to the concepts and thoughts of my mind?

KingCoil
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Since this is a chat forum and not a defense panel for my Doctoral thesis. I try to make my posts quick and to the point.

Since my change of faith I have believed that man developed like the rest of the universe…step by step over eons of time. Some of the questions you want me to answer are still beyond us at this point in time.So, I am not able to satisfy you with a listing of sources that do not exist. I can’t create a bibliography from nothing…my decisions come from what were once the almost universally accepted, particularly the Bible and early Christian writers.

I find them to be attempting to answer some of the fundamental questions of our existence in a time when science was in its infancy. They were also, for the most part, working alone and not sharing all the time. Then they attempted to collect a book that would make sense from many separate works.
 
KingCoil said:
Thanks everyone for your reactions.

How many atheists are here in this forum?

I can imagine that there are quite a number of atheists here: because they do want to find out whether their merely lack of belief in any God, gods, goddesses, divinities, deities, flying spaghetti monsters, invisible unicorns, tooth fairies, celestial teapots , etc., can be and are toppled by appeal to sincere and intelligent reasoning from the part of Christian theists here.

That is why they don’t care to come forward, because they don’t want to experience the discomfort of being toppled.

Now about others here, you are not happy with my adding operator to God’s role in addition to creator.

Okay, if you prefer, I will just skip that word operator from my description of the concept of God.

Now, does that make you more happy?

However, skipping a word that is not happy with you, that does not mean that the concept of operator is not applicable to God, it is just for the sake of good pr with you: because you want to save God from being implicated in the evil deeds of man.

So, there, you are now off the hook from having to implicate God as responsible for the evil deeds of man, and therefore you save what, the free will of man?

As I said already, that is a mystery to myself as well, that God being creator of man and the universe, including of course everything in man and in the universe that is not God Himself, it cannot be taken otherwise on logic but human logic that God is thereby like a puppet master and man is the puppet, wherefore man is not responsible for his evil deeds.

Have I not said so many times already that first things first: God is creator of literally everything that man knows to exist and will know to exist that is not God Himself, and that God is all just, and that God created man in His own image, namely, in that respect that man is a free and intelligent being, just like God but not in the same degree of intelligence as with God – for God from my own reasoning cannot create another being as intelligent as He is Himself.

So, that is the conundrum from your part, that God being creator of everything, then He must be accountable for the evil deeds man does, but man is also taught by the Church to be responsible owing to the faculty of free will God has endowed man with.

There, that is the conundrum with you folks who are into some perplexity, but call that a mystery.

Now, can we just proceed to the question whether you also theists even though you cannot accept God to be operator of the universe, that from the concept that God is the creator of man and the universe, then we can and do know God to exist in the universe in the concept of God as creator of man and the universe.

Ah, you will again go into the conundrum that then God is also the creator of the evil deeds man does.

Let us put that conundrum in abeyance i.e. in the shelf of your mind for later examination, just first things first, can we already proceed to the universe to look for God in the concept as creator of the universe, starting with the most convenient and easiest part to look for God in, namely, in ourselves, starting with the nose in our face, that is the part of the universe, namely, man, ourselves, and (not to be funny, but actually most sincere and serious), with our nose.

That is what I look forward to deal with, namely, with atheists who just merely only simply lack belief in the existence of God, gods, goddesses, divinities, deities, flying spaghetti monsters, invisible pink unicorns, tooth fairies, celestial teapots (contribution of B. Russell, aka as * forgive me, failed philosopher and mathematician, but consummate lover of women – no offense intended though against women ]*.

Here you go again, “But then God is also creator of the evil deeds that man does, etc., etc., etc.”

Please, for the nth time, please just to put that matter in abeyance for later examination or in another thread, because we want us all to concentrate on God in concept as creator of the universe of which man is a part.

Okay, atheists who are here and lurking here, please come forward and tell me what is wrong with the concept of God as creator of the universe; and you already theists please just keep quiet on your oh so smart playing the devil’s advocate, “But then God is responsible also for man’s evil deeds,” will you just hold your peace; or tell me what is wrong with the concept of God as creator of the universe, INSOFAR AS CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE IS CONCERNED, SO THAT EVEN THOUGH HE CREATES EVIL, SO BE IT FOR THE SAKE OF THIS THREAD MOVING FORWARD.

If you are so intent with that conundrum, please start another thread on it, but still you have to already hold to the premise first that God is the creator of the universe.

KingCoil
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I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say thank you so much for your gracious sermon and allowing us to read your wise and generous words. It really helps us hide from your truth when we don’t have to confront such a dilemma as the one you present. Oh wise and trusted one!
Now if you could only give us understanding of what you mean by “Operator” so we can begin to absorb such wisdom. This way we can see If our understanding aligns with yours!

Peace!😈😈😈
 
ProdigalSun said:
I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say thank you so much for your gracious sermon and allowing us to read your wise and generous words. It really helps us hide from your truth when we don’t have to confront such a dilemma as the one you present. Oh wise and trusted one!
Now if you could only give us understanding of what you mean by “Operator” so we can begin to absorb such wisdom. This way we can see If our understanding aligns with yours!

Peace!😈😈😈
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Well, in regard to what I mean by operator, perhaps we can both of us and all the rest who do want me to expound on what I understand to be operator, the concept of: perhaps as we are all I assume legible and writing in English refer to our stock knowledge on what the word operator means in everyday talk with everyone in the street, office, school, in a store, or even in the court of justice, and also in congress, or simply at home.

Here, I will look up in WordWeb what is an operator, and hope to see that the word operator is also as I understand it to be in my stock knowledge of common English words.


  • NB: This image upload is courtesy of tinypic.com/?t=postupload, I understand that it does not serve this image forever, there is an expiration time; but you can always Ctrl+left click on operator to get WordWeb – if you have installed WordWeb in your hard disk. ]*
Definitions 2 and 3 are what I have in my stock knowledge as common everyday meanings of operator.

Do you also have them for your everyday understanding of the word operator in English?

Anyway, I have already said that I will just skip that word operator from my concept of God, and concentrate on the word creator, thus my concept of God is as follows:

God is the creator of the universe.

Of course with the caveat that the meaning of God above does not imply that what is not mentioned is excluded.

So, tell me, what do you find wrong with the concept of God as creator of the universe?

KingCoil
 
oldcelt said:
Since this is a chat forum and not a defense panel for my Doctoral thesis. I try to make my posts quick and to the point.

Since my change of faith I have believed that man developed like the rest of the universe…step by step over eons of time. Some of the questions you want me to answer are still beyond us at this point in time.So, I am not able to satisfy you with a listing of sources that do not exist. I can’t create a bibliography from nothing…my decisions come from what were once the almost universally accepted, particularly the Bible and early Christian writers.

I find them to be attempting to answer some of the fundamental questions of our existence in a time when science was in its infancy. They were also, for the most part, working alone and not sharing all the time. Then they attempted to collect a book that would make sense from many separate works.
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Thanks, oldcelt, for your reply.

I want to commend you for working on your doctoral thesis.

If I may, what is the name of the institution and its address and also url if any that I can access online?

I can understand that you have adopted different beliefs since when you have changed your faith.

So, tell me what do you think about my concept of God as the creator of the universe, not from any of your present beliefs, or from your previous beliefs, but just on your examination of the concept as I present it, God is the creator of the universe.

My request will require you to do thinking instead of bringing forth what you now believe or what you used to believe, thinking on what you know from your everyday experiences of life and the universe of realities like you are living and breathing and you came from your parents, and also very important what scientists tell us about the universe that it has a beginning some 13.7 billion years ago.

I hope you will not find me impertinent with asking you for the institution where you are working to prepare yourself for the eventual defense of your doctoral thesis; but this is a forum and it is good for everyone here to get to know from what background people are talking although anonymously about God and universe and free will, and whatever else in connection with the Catholic faith, as this is a Catholic forum.

This is a Catholic forum of the Catholic faith, but we want to talk now on the basis not of faith but of rational thinking, and it is the teaching of the Catholic faith that God can be and is known also from rational thinking by man.

KingCoil
 
oldcelt said:
. . . I just don’t believe that any of the world religions has even come close to the answer. Nor are they likely to in my lifetime.
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Are you suggesting that world religions will not catch on to your realizations during your lifetime?
If you are speaking in this context, certain difficulties in communication are now understandable.
 
oldcelt said:
None of those scenarios describe my beliefs. I do not believe that god created man so he is worthy of neither blame or praise in their actions, depending on the circumstance. God may have instituted the beginning of creation, or been there near the beginning…there is no way of knowing at present. As a Deist I just don’ totally preclude the possibility of a superior intelligence, even a force of some type.

*I just don’t believe that any of the world religions has even come close to the answer. Nor are they likely to in my lifetime. *** Bolding from KingCoil ]
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Sorry for coming in again, but I have just come to the notice though it has always been in the back burner of my mind, namely, that you have the habit of saying, I don’t believe, or I believe.

I wonder if at all you have the self-seeking that just because you believe or you don’t believe, you already have a rational account of the content of your belief?

My orientation in this Catholic forum is to do rational examination of the idea that God is the creator of the universe in concept, and therefrom, namely, from the concept, we can humans endowed with rational thinking and intelligence infer with certainty as of the kind of certainty man is capable of and actually do enjoy, already encounter God as we search in the universe for the presence of God.

So, oldcelt, will you ever come to the endeavor to do rational thinking as to analyze what you believe or what you don’t believe?

Or you will just keep declaring: I believe, I don’t believe?

In which case, forgive me, but I cannot see what is your contribution in this forum: since I assume that folks here are not just interested in what you believe or what you don’t believe, but in at least some rational exposition and explanation, but above all in my own regard also what is the rational defense of your belief or non-belief or dis-belief in something like for example the existence of God?

KingCoil
 
Of course he is the creator, don’t be silly:shrug:. Does The Almighty Father sit on his throne in front of an “Apparatus or Machine” and make sure the world and universe for that matter runs smoothly with an earthquake over there and maybe a Tsunami over here. Oh wait a minute that meteor is geting a little to close better just shift that a mm to the left! Oh look there is little Jonny again up to no good, well it’s a good thing I predestined him to heaven or for sure he would not make it here.

Hmmm… nah I don’t think so!

Peace!👍
 
ProdigalSun said:
Of course he is the creator, don’t be silly:shrug:. Does The Almighty Father sit on his throne in front of an “Apparatus or Machine” and make sure the world and universe for that matter runs smoothly with an earthquake over there and maybe a Tsunami over here. Oh wait a minute that meteor is geting a little to close better just shift that a mm to the left! Oh look there is little Jonny again up to no good, well it’s a good thing I predestined him to heaven or for sure he would not make it here.

Hmmm… nah I don’t think so!

Peace!👍
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Do I get your correctly that you don’t find anything wrong with the concept of God as creator of the universe?

In which case, will you, say, if you are an atheist, accept my invitation for us two to search for God as per the concept of God as creator of the universe, in the universe itself; and I propose that we start the search in that part of the universe that is the most accessible to us and therefore most convenient for us to do our search for God existing in the universe?

What part of the universe is that?

What about that part of the universe that is we ourselves, you and I?

Do you understand my invitation?

I almost forgot to ask you, do you now know what I mean by the word operator used in my concept of God as the creator and operator of the universe?

KingCoil
 
King Coil

You sound as though thinking / believing has to be ‘rational’ – whatever ‘rational’ really is. When I’ve heard that term used, it’s usually been by people who believe Their concept / idea is the Only Really ‘intelligent’ one. Anyone who disagrees is Not-really ‘rational’. Or using their intelligence. You enjoy sounding ‘intellectual’.

So - either God created this world / animals, man – or He didn’t. But we Do have His Word that He did – written down for us to read. We accept by faith Many things in this life.

Apparently this post is more for ‘old celt’ – who apparently is an evolutionist. I’ve shared emails with evolutionists – turns out that their ‘god’ is really 'science". And your idea seems to be that ‘with our present data, we can’t really know for sure’. And I truly feel sorry for you. Because science does Not have All the answers. It never will. God is our source of knowledge / wisdom. God has given you a wonderful mind to be able to work on your thesis. Because – Genesis 1:1 says that God created Everything we have. and John 1 tells us the same thing.

We can enjoy the beautiful blue sky that God gives us – the beautiful sunrises / sunsets / rainbows. Someone was trying to give a purely scientific explanation for them to happen. He was trying to show that science had an explanation for Everything, therefore there was no Need for God. He failed to realize that it Was Because of God that we Can have and enjoy those things.
 
crochet_lady said:
King Coil

You sound as though thinking / believing has to be ‘rational’ – whatever ‘rational’ really is. When I’ve heard that term used, it’s usually been by people who believe Their concept / idea is the Only Really ‘intelligent’ one. Anyone who disagrees is Not-really ‘rational’. Or using their intelligence. You enjoy sounding ‘intellectual’.

So - either God created this world / animals, man – or He didn’t. But we Do have His Word that He did – written down for us to read. We accept by faith Many things in this life.

Apparently this post is more for ‘old celt’ – who apparently is an evolutionist. I’ve shared emails with evolutionists – turns out that their ‘god’ is really 'science". And your idea seems to be that ‘with our present data, we can’t really know for sure’. And I truly feel sorry for you. Because science does Not have All the answers. It never will. God is our source of knowledge / wisdom. God has given you a wonderful mind to be able to work on your thesis. Because – Genesis 1:1 says that God created Everything we have. and John 1 tells us the same thing.

We can enjoy the beautiful blue sky that God gives us – the beautiful sunrises / sunsets / rainbows. Someone was trying to give a purely scientific explanation for them to happen. He was trying to show that science had an explanation for Everything, therefore there was no Need for God. He failed to realize that it Was Because of God that we Can have and enjoy those things.
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I am an evolutionist, but I do not preclude the possibility of a god figure being somewhere in the equation. It would seem that King Coil’s problems with me start with wanting absolute answers from me, when no one can provide such answers on this subject.
It comes down to this: Either you embrace the biblical account(s), or you don’t. Having spent years in archaeology and self-examination, I no longer do.
That being said, this is not the proper forum to relate every reason I have for that decision. Everyone here has arrived at some sort of decision or clung to the teachings of childhood relating to creation.
I’ll put it simply…I have never seen one bit of hard evidence for the God depicted in the bible. To believe in the Christian God as he is written is a matter of faith, not fact. If someone chooses faith…great…I love a number of people who have done that. I also love some who, like me, either never had the faith, or lost it somewhere along the way.
If I could scientifically answer all the questions relative to creation, believe me, people would know about it.
 
oldcelt said:
No quite an atheist but my problem with that view is that believers have to come up with all types of explanations for the evil that exists and, IMHO, they just don’t cut it.
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Hey old celt. Why do atheists or non believers in God as creator say that “because there is evil, there is no God?”

According to atheists, we cannot put God where we do not have the answers, yes? Because we don’t know why the big bang happened or what was before it doesn’t imply there is a God. Correct?

So, why as an atheist do you assume that because there is evil this presupposes there is no God? I’ve have this conversation before so I think I know the answer but at the basic level of this argument you are presupposing that your idea of what makes sense has to be that way. e.g. God is omniscient, God knows everything, He allows evil to exist, He is all powerful but does nothing about this evil and suffering, so he must be a sadist. Is that a fair enough formula? If so, the argument presupposes that because God allows suffering he is a sadist therefore there must be no God.

What if God has a reason for this and the reason is beyond our comprehension? Just as science teaches us, we shouldn’t put our assumptions in places in places it doesn’t belong just because there does not seem to be a qualified reason.
 
oldcelt said:
Either you embrace the biblical account(s), or you don’t.
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That’s not what Catholics believe in that we don’t believe that we have to read the bible and take the creation story literally… is that what you are referring to. The bible is only a way for God to communicate with us so that we can understand how to be better people. It is not a scientific document. I know I jumped in here and may have missed earlier discussions, so forgive me if that is the case. I believe in God. I also believe that if we observe with our eyes that the world is 450 billion years old and based on something like radio isotope testing then our previous assumptions (if these were in fact assumptions, not saying they are) that the bible tells us literally the world was created in seven days are obviously misinterpreted. Our assumptions and misinterpretations are not God’s fault.
 
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