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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Keep in mind that God speaks to us directly, intimately, and personally through our conscience. That is where we choose God or reject him. So even Atheists will have to answer for their choices.
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grannymh
Guest
To Cut To The Chase
Where I am headed…
Using the “willing suspension of disbelief”, we have the assumption that God exists.
We have started to determine the nature of God by using the example of love as being established by or coming from a different level of existence from the human species. This is because love is non-destroyable on the human level and therefore it transcends the human level per se at the same time that humans can experience love. We need to stay away from the mutually exclusive or. Love is not either human or God. Love is found in both God *and *humans. Love is the similarity between two distinct levels of being, human and God.
Eventually, we can explore the idea that the similarity of love in both humans and God leads to a relationship which is not between two equals but between two different natures – one is completely spiritual and the other is basically material/physical with a spiritual principle (soul) which enables the person to *both *know *and *experience love as being spiritual as well as the physical we also experience. :hug1:
Selected parts (also known as cherry picking) of paragraphs 396 -401,* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*, will form the conclusion. These paragraphs are not a page-turner. My suggestion is to study them while I am on break. If you have time, start at paragraph 355 and you will discover some great stuff.
Link to Catechism:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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Nita
Guest
Right.God has inscribed His divine and natural law in the hearts of all humans.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5Y.HTM
1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment… For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God… His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6U.HTM
1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good.
The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.1995 The “divine and natural” law shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. …
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snarflemike
Guest
It’s no more confusing than being told “don’t breath in under water”. You can choose to ignore that “demand”, but the results will not be good for you. In both cases, the results are not good for you because you are going against reality, and you will always lose that contest.
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fhansen
Guest
God just happens to be the ultimate good, the only thing in existence worthy of creations’ love and worship; He’s goodness, itself. We just don’t know it because we’re busy checking out everything else-a course humankind was set on by Adam & Eve when they decided they could know better than God where fulfillment and happiness might lie for them. All human dissatisfaction, let alone misery and lack of peace, comes from not realizing and accepting that God alone satisfies, to quote Aquinas. God, who is love, knows better than anyone that the woes of the world come from our not sufficiently valuing and therefore not expressing love as we ought. So He gives us an “ought”, for our good: “Thou Shalt Love”, to sum up all the commandments succinctly.
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Neildown
Guest
As I said, God is the source of all life. What happens when you stray from the source of life?
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snarflemike
Guest
Let me re-phrase:
If we don’t enter into an everlasting relationship with Love, we will have chosen to be in a place without love.
Really, it is illogical to expect otherwise. “I reject Love but I don’t want to be in a place where there is no Love.”
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grannymh
Guest
In the real world, yes.
No explanation needed.
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danserr
Guest
Remember that what is needed is to comes to know God and to develop a loving relationship with Him. Since, He has established that one important way to do that is through the sacraments, and especially the celebration of his death and Resurrection every Sunday in the Eucharist, it does seem reasonable to think that a person who *rejects *this is indeed putting himself in a worse position to come to know God.
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fhansen
Guest
I developed a love for God first, to whatever extent it had grown, before I developed a love for His church. As that happened I more or less simultaneously came to understand the reason and need for assembling as a community of believers-making our communion with Him and each other real, so to speak. Having and holding to that physical, regular obligation gives Him a recognition that I can’t as easily dismiss as I can when it’s just sort of me and Him alone. Just some thoughts. Give it time and prayer. That’s what it took for me.
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fhansen
Guest
There are many reasons one might “forsake the assembly” as scripture puts it, or forsake the “right” assembly for that matter, including physical inability to attend, emotional/social reasons, or ignorance of Gods’ will. God can and does, of course, dispense His grace as He will, and does so outside the Church; He responds to faith and love-those virtues are His will for us. The ultimate goal is to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves; if we’ve achieved this we possess all that we could possibly need.
But the Church’s role is to help us get there and I’m personally both challenged and empowered more, to that end, by attendance. There I hear the gospel read, regardless of whether or I may be reading it on my own, there I receive the sacraments, formal ways God has given us to receive grace for becoming reconciled with Him as needed, being aided in the fight against that which seeks to pull me away from Him, and of having communion with Him-structured means, so to speak, means of pointing the way and helping to accomplish that which must take place internally, a way of physically living out the gospel. The Church provides other ways to do that as well, as we participate in needed various ministries.
While I don’t presume to speak for God on this matter, the Church holds and defends the position that attendance at Mass in the Church that He established is His will for us-because it’s beneficial for us. And if we love Him we obey Him, as scripture tells us. It’s up to us to decide whether or not we agree with this, or any other doctrine of the Church for that matter, and then do the best we can to act accordingly.
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danserr
Guest
Well, I think if such a person really loved God as much as you suggest, then she would want to obey His command to commemorate His death and Resurrection, “do this in memory of me.” If she loved God, why would she deny Him “formal, public, recognition”? Since, God makes Himself directly present in the Eucharist, as He said He would, why if she loved Him, would a person not want to be present at this?
Of course, I think it better to pray alone and live well than to do nothing, but I still think a person who attends mass is putting herself in a better position to come into a loving relationship with God
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snarflemike
Guest
Assuming that person knows what God asks of them (which he only asks of them for their own good, never forget), they are choosing love of self over love of other, so the answer is no.
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snarflemike
Guest
A person who has “great, great love for God” doesn’t intentionally and repeatedly disobey him. Yes, we all sin, but to know beforehand “I will choose to commit this sin again” week after week, no, that is not great great love.
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grannymh
Guest
Conclusion to Posts 8, 20, 23.
What I have done is to shift the playing field to the fact that there is a difference between God and humans in regard to the relationship between the two.
We still need human terms in our attempt to describe God. This thread is full of ways of describing God and His love for us. Learn them and use them. Share a discussion on them.
At some point, you will need to present these two sentences. 1. God created man in His image and established him in His friendship. 2. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. (Source: CCC 396) Unfortunately, many, not all, Catholics whom I have encountered are unaware of the depth of meaning in these two simple sentences. My apology, but you will have to do your own homework which starts at CCC 355 and continues through CCC 421.
Furthermore, “free submission to God” can mean many things to different individuals. Earlier, I commented that love is the similarity between God and humans in the last part (Cut to the Chase) in post 23. Love comes from wanting to live in free submission to God, Who is ultimate love. So what does one do about loving in fear because of what will happen if one doesn’t love God? This is imperfect love which in a general sense is similar to imperfect contrition in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Read carefully CCC 1450 - 1453, especially CCC 1453. When one is honest, imperfect reasons for loving God can begin the process of true love. Why? Because we are thinking about God and not ourselves.
What I am suggesting is to create a friendly atmosphere. Sometimes, the only way to do that is with a willing suspension of disbelief. Be willing to listen and to learn from an atheist which is easier to do when there is not the usual confrontation type of discussion. Learning does not automatically mean acceptance.
Maybe God demanding love is not all that bad – IF – love is really an act of trust in a supernatural Creator. Here is a fascinating out-of-context concept (Cherry picking at its best.) "Man, [Adam] tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart… "
Thank you, SnakeMauler
for your patience. I hope you have learned a few things. I know I have learned a lot just by putting this together.
Blessings,
granny
The human person is worthy of profound respect.
What I have done is to shift the playing field to the fact that there is a difference between God and humans in regard to the relationship between the two.
We still need human terms in our attempt to describe God. This thread is full of ways of describing God and His love for us. Learn them and use them. Share a discussion on them.
At some point, you will need to present these two sentences. 1. God created man in His image and established him in His friendship. 2. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. (Source: CCC 396) Unfortunately, many, not all, Catholics whom I have encountered are unaware of the depth of meaning in these two simple sentences. My apology, but you will have to do your own homework which starts at CCC 355 and continues through CCC 421.
Furthermore, “free submission to God” can mean many things to different individuals. Earlier, I commented that love is the similarity between God and humans in the last part (Cut to the Chase) in post 23. Love comes from wanting to live in free submission to God, Who is ultimate love. So what does one do about loving in fear because of what will happen if one doesn’t love God? This is imperfect love which in a general sense is similar to imperfect contrition in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Read carefully CCC 1450 - 1453, especially CCC 1453. When one is honest, imperfect reasons for loving God can begin the process of true love. Why? Because we are thinking about God and not ourselves.
What I am suggesting is to create a friendly atmosphere. Sometimes, the only way to do that is with a willing suspension of disbelief. Be willing to listen and to learn from an atheist which is easier to do when there is not the usual confrontation type of discussion. Learning does not automatically mean acceptance.
Maybe God demanding love is not all that bad – IF – love is really an act of trust in a supernatural Creator. Here is a fascinating out-of-context concept (Cherry picking at its best.) "Man, [Adam] tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart… "
Thank you, SnakeMauler
for your patience. I hope you have learned a few things. I know I have learned a lot just by putting this together.
Blessings,
granny
The human person is worthy of profound respect.
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