Creche in the Public Square

[Therese123]

I will be attending a town council meeting soon to try to get the Christmas creche returned to our town’s downtown square from which it was removed 20 years ago. I would appreciate any information or links that will help me defend the legality of religious Christmas symbols on public property. Specifically, I am looking for a few pungent points to make at the meeting when I am called upon. Also I would appreciate it if anyone can offer additional arguments, besides the legality ones, to motivate our council to realize that having a creche in public view is entirely desireable and appropriate.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Here is a lovely and elaborate 18th Century creche made in Naples, Italy - 47 Baroque wood/terra cotta figures.

dcpages.com/gallery/d/14098-2/DSC08089.jpg

It is the centerpiece of this room:

http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/Holidays/east.jpg

That’s the East Room of the White House. This creche has been displayed here since 1967.

 

[rossum]

I will be attending a town council meeting soon to try to get the Christmas creche returned to our town’s downtown square from which it was removed 20 years ago. I would appreciate any information or links that will help me defend the legality of religious Christmas symbols on public property. Specifically, I am looking for a few pungent points to make at the meeting when I am called upon. Also I would appreciate it if anyone can offer additional arguments, besides the legality ones, to motivate our council to realize that having a creche in public view is entirely desireable and appropriate.

Where are you? The law is different in different countries.

rossum

 

[aatha]

I am in the United States in Gettysburg, PA

 

[EricFilmer]

I think these points are worth mentioning to the town council:

1) In the U.S., the federal government has officially established Christmas as a federal holiday.

2) Even from a non-religious position, one should recognize the fact that Jesus is a historical figure whose life and teachings have had an enormous and incalculable amount of influence throughout the world, including in the U.S. Even non-Christians and atheists would have to admit that.

3) The story of his birth is related in the number one best selling book in the U.S. (indeed, in the world) which, of course, is the Bible. It is also mentioned several times in the Qur’an.

4) Muslims and many Jews consider Jesus a prophet and therefore, objectively speaking, have reason to commemorate his birth. In light of this, even though it arose as a Christian image, a creche does not represent only Christianity.

Therefore, the way that I see it, there should be no problem in having a creche on public land. It is simply a visible representation of a federally mandated holiday. IMO, it makes little sense to say that it is ok for the federal government to mandate a holiday in commemoration of the birth of Jesus, but then say it is not ok to display a creche in commemoration of the birth of Jesus on public land. Whatever argument a person has against returning the creche to the Gettysburg town square would likewise be an argument against Christmas being a federal holiday in the first place, but few (if any) people want to take this issue that far.

Nevertheless, the members of your town council may be sympathetic to returning the creche to the town square but be unwilling to do so unless the legality of it is first firmly established. For example, the creche which was traditionally displayed in front of a government building in Canonsburg (also in your state) was moved to private property after someone made a complaint. The local officials simply wanted to avoid a potentially expensive court battle. You can read about this situation in this link (and I invite you to compare Meagan Hartly’s anti-creche statements in that article with my pro-creche statements above).

 

[aatha]

Thank you, David and Eric, I will be using both of your posts on Dec. 13 when I approach the town council. I went to Eric’s link and also found a reference to the American Center for Law and Justice which I had forgotten about. So I will be contacting them also. I am hoping to get on the agenda for five minutes and make the best points I can in that short time. By the way, aatha and Therese123 are both the same person, me. I’m not sure what happened there, but I lost the ability to log in with Therese123. Thanks, everyone, for your help.

 

[EricFilmer]

Thank you, David and Eric, I will be using both of your posts on Dec. 13 when I approach the town council. I went to Eric’s link and also found a reference to the American Center for Law and Justice which I had forgotten about. So I will be contacting them also. I am hoping to get on the agenda for five minutes and make the best points I can in that short time. By the way, aatha and Therese123 are both the same person, me. I’m not sure what happened there, but I lost the ability to log in with Therese123. Thanks, everyone, for your help.

You are very welcome, and I am praying for you and wish you well in this noble undertaking. Please consider making a follow-up post to let us know how things turned out.

 

[aatha]

Well, that effort was unsuccessful. I was told that the issue would create a controversy in a “red hot minute” and the Borough Council did not want a lawsuit. However, a final decision was not made and a vote not taken. I go before the committee in charge of public safety and works again today to ask for a postponement until later this year. Since I did not get the creche back in place this past Christmas, I want to work harder to get the proper research done and arguments in place for Christmas 2012. Any and all comments and help from this forum will be much appreciated.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Catholic League has just done a write up on this very issue. They have a Nativity display in New York City’s Central Park. The legal opinion run thus: If the park is a public forum, where people routinely express themselves (as in Central Park) then the Free Expression of Speech is protected, and therefore allows a Nativity set in a park. There are no rules about other required religious symbols etc. The Catholic League also thinks that Nativity Scenes, and other Christian symbols around Christmas are on the RISE! There has been a backlash (or pushback) to all of the ridiculous melodrama of outlawing Christmas in a Christian country like the USA.

The only people that really fight Nativity scenes are Atheists and their lobbying groups like their Freedom from Religion Foundation, which uses the ACLU often. Jews, Muslims, Hindus and other Non-Christian groups are generally fine with Christian expressions, as long as their own rights are respected as well.

 

[EricFilmer]

Well, that effort was unsuccessful. I was told that the issue would create a controversy in a “red hot minute” and the Borough Council did not want a lawsuit. However, a final decision was not made and a vote not taken. I go before the committee in charge of public safety and works again today to ask for a postponement until later this year. Since I did not get the creche back in place this past Christmas, I want to work harder to get the proper research done and arguments in place for Christmas 2012. Any and all comments and help from this forum will be much appreciated.

Thanks for the update, and keep fighting the good fight!