Creeds and Deeds

[Stilldreamn]

Is anyone else enjoying listening to the Lutherans arguing over which synod is the “real Lutheranism”? It reminds me of a joke…

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over. (original source)

Yes, I have been smelling the popcorn for a while now.
Enjoy. We will return to our regularly scheduled programming shortly.

 

[steido01]

Predictably, you resort to the worse case scenario whenever the Missouri Synod is criticized. I can easily trade parish for parish of examples of embarrassing Lutheran congregations if that is where you want to go.

:ehh:Ehrm… You attacked the LCMS entirely unprovoked in post #11, firstly assuming that we use the same hymnal as WELS and further asserting that the use of ‘Christian’ over ‘catholic’ is somehow representative of a changed doctrine (a falsity that has been dispelled several times on these boards). I responded to your incorrect assumption and false assertion.

Does the LCMS use the word “Catholic” or “Christian” in the ecumenical creeds?

Both/Either. Our hymnal literally has both written in it. In any case, Christian=catholic. What does it matter if the meaning is the same?

And if the Missouri Synod and it’s sister body, the Wisconsin Synod prefer to use the word “Christian” despite historic and Lutheran precedent for using the original language used by Methodist and Presbyterians churches, then what does that say for so-called “Confessional Lutheranism”?

Um, that we speak a modern language? Again, Christian=catholic. Some LCMS churches say ‘catholic’ and some say ‘Christian.’ It makes no substantive difference because the meaning remains the unchanged.

The LCMS left the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue, refused to sign the Joint Declaration on Justification [that even the Methodist Church agrees with] and still embraces 'church growth" protestantism.

False. The LCMS was not invited to the tenth round of the dialogues. Let me say that again. The LCMS was not invited to the tenth round of the Dialogues. The LCMS has been a part of the first 9 rounds, and will be part of the 11th. Let’s get our facts straight; we don’t want to inadvertently violate the 8th Commandment.

Sorry steido01 but your Synod is considered on the periphery of what it means to be a Lutheran.

You mean the LCMS does not consider prayer to Isis and the pagan ‘Mother Goddess’ to be “decidedly within Lutheran orthodoxy…”? God help the LCMS that she ever remain ‘on the periphery!’

Now, that truth may come across as a bit abrasive, so I’ll leave with this conciliatory remark: I am certain that true Lutheranism -as a correct living of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic faith- is manifest wherever the Word is preached and Sacraments rightly administered, regardless of synodical or denominational lines. I trust that the educated reader will understand the places where Lutheranism is more or less likely to exist. You may have the last word; I ask only that you base your response in accurate facts.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This thread in not about the Missouri Synod but about the creed and how changes in the wording can be confusing. But the point about the LCMS and Wisconsin Synod using the word “Christian” in place of “Catholic” in the creeds suggests more than some may want to admit or refer to it as “silly”. There is a strain of anti-Catholic thinking among some Lutherans in north America even to the point of altering the Apostles and Nicene creeds; that can not be denied. I’d be interested in reading the rationale from the Missouri Synod.

Speaking of the Missouri Synod: christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/february-web-only/lutheran-pastor-apologizes-for-praying-at-newtown-vigil.html

 

[PietroPaolo]

Hmmmm… Listening to EvangelCatholic and Steido01argue over which synod represents “real Lutheranism” makes me wonder why God Incarnate only gave us a book to privately interpret rather than some real authority which could settle our religious disputes. I mean, He prayed we’d all be one, you’d think He might have left some kind of authority, some kind of… I don’t know… rock or something… on which to build His Church. I guess He figured it’d be best to just sit down and write a book on Holy Thursday saying “read this in memory of me” and let us all bicker forever over what the book really meant. Oh well… missed opportunity.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Is anyone else enjoying listening to the Lutherans arguing over which synod is the “real Lutheranism”? It reminds me of a joke…

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over. (original source)

Is anyone else enjoying listening to the Lutherans arguing over which synod is the “real Lutheranism”?

I enjoy it. If I can help out one of my unreal Lutheran friends then good.

 

[MaryT777]

Hmmmm… Listening to EvangelCatholic and Steido01argue over which synod represents “real Lutheranism” makes me wonder why God Incarnate only gave us a book to privately interpret rather than some real authority which could settle our religious disputes. I mean, He prayed we’d all be one, you’d think He might have left some kind of authority, some kind of… I don’t know… rock or something… on which to build His Church. I guess He figured it’d be best to just sit down and write a book on Holy Thursday saying “read this in memory of me” and let us all bicker forever over what the book really meant. Oh well… missed opportunity.

 

[steido01]

While it may come across as bickering, it’s actually useful for Lutherans to call each other out on our grievances. Lutheranism is all about being in the open; we don’t pretend our disagreements don’t exist. When we see others sinning - at an individual or synodical level - we call them out, with the expectation that they return us the favor. Continually working the spices into the lambchops, as it were, so the salt doesn’t lose its flavor. Not so terribly unlike the relationship that the various autocephalous Orthodox Churches (although certainly not a perfect analogy).

In fact, even Lutheran Synods that do not share pulpit/altar fellowship under normal circumstances still talk to and with one another regularly. Typically, this is done at informal conferences like the Emmaus Conference. Of course, such conferences cannot take place when a church body entirely jettisons Christian orthodoxy for mainstream, politically-motivated, worldly pop-“ecumenism” that, while appearing to be Christian-like, actually shifts the focus from Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross to (wo)man’s worship of self.

 

[PietroPaolo]

…Of course, such conferences cannot take place when a church body entirely jettisons Christian orthodoxy for mainstream, politically-motivated, worldly pop-“ecumenism” that, while appearing to be Christian-like, actually shifts the focus from Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross to (wo)man’s worship of self.

And who, in Lutheranism, decides when that happens?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

While it may come across as bickering, it’s actually useful for Lutherans to call each other out on our grievances. Lutheranism is all about being in the open; we don’t pretend our disagreements don’t exist. When we see others sinning - at an individual or synodical level - we call them out, with the expectation that they return us the favor. Continually working the spices into the lambchops, as it were, so the salt doesn’t lose its flavor. Not so terribly unlike the relationship that the various autocephalous Orthodox Churches (although certainly not a perfect analogy).

In fact, even Lutheran Synods that do not share pulpit/altar fellowship under normal circumstances still talk to and with one another regularly. Typically, this is done at informal conferences like the Emmaus Conference. Of course, such conferences cannot take place when a church body entirely jettisons Christian orthodoxy for mainstream, politically-motivated, worldly pop-“ecumenism” that, while appearing to be Christian-like, actually shifts the focus from Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross to (wo)man’s worship of self.

It’s about accountability. The LCMS saved our synod from the ravages of pietism many years ago. For this I thank the LCMS.

 

[Peter_J]

Is anyone else enjoying listening to the Lutherans arguing over which synod is the “real Lutheranism”? It reminds me of a joke…

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over. (original source)

Yes, I have been smelling the popcorn for a while now.
Enjoy. We will return to our regularly scheduled programming shortly.

I think that joke was originally told by Mormons, and it was about Catholics. (Or am I wrong about that? I guess I’m pretty off-topic in any case.)

 

[PietroPaolo]

I think that joke was originally told by Mormons, and it was about Catholics. (Or am I wrong about that? I guess I’m pretty off-topic in any case.)

According to the Guardian that is the original version of the joke. Honestly, I’m not sure how it would even make sense with Catholics. The whole joke is about how many different sects there are in Protestantism, about how sola scriptura leads to absurdities. A Catholic either assents to all the Church’s teachings or is a heretic*. Period. Not quite as funny as a joke.

*Note: I know that’s a loaded word, but it was used in the joke. Heretic just means someone who chooses for themselves. It’s the original word for “cafeteria Catholic”. Some find it offensive, but it is not meant to be in this context.

 

[Peter_J]

According to the Guardian that is the original version of the joke.

That may well be. (I was kidding with the whole originally-Mormon idea.)

 

[Peter_J]

Heretic just means someone who chooses for themselves.

Well yeah!

 

[Stilldreamn]

It was just very awkward to try and confess a Creed with different wording. Plainly, I was pretty upset that “they” had CHANGED THE CREED.

I now know that WELS considers the changes to be due to modern useage and not to the actual meaning but it seems to be a pretty short step to wonder when does a creed stop being universal?

Anticipating the pile on due to “lack of authority” (love ya’ll anyway) - would you say that as long as the Trinity is defined correctly, would the Nicene Creed still be considered an authentic confession?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It was just very awkward to try and confess a Creed with different wording. Plainly, I was pretty upset that “they” had CHANGED THE CREED.

I now know that WELS considers the changes to be due to modern useage and not to the actual meaning but it seems to be a pretty short step to wonder when does a creed stop being universal?

Anticipating the pile on due to “lack of authority” (love ya’ll anyway) - would you say that as long as the Trinity is defined correctly, would the Nicene Creed still be considered an authentic confession?

The words in the liturgy change in every denomination. Can you imagine how difficult it was for some Roman Catholics to go from a Latin Mass to the vernacular in the 1960’s? There are international ecumenical commissions that update the wording on creeds, the Our Father, etc. Same with the many modern versions of the Bible; some Christians prefer the King James version in church.

I think the important thing is that the meaning of the Apostles and Nicene creeds reflect the basic teaching of the Faith even if the words are updated.