Creeds of men that the lord found abominable...from an lds explanation.

[why_me]

It has been mentioned quite often that mormons consider the creeds of other faiths abominable. And this has been brought out in quite a negative way toward the mormons. Below is an article that appeared in 1987 in the lds magazine Ensign about it. The magazine Ensign is a widely read publication of the lds church. Please read the short article and then there can be a discussion between the board members. :grouphug:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1987.htm/ensign%20july%201987.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0#LPTOC1

 

[fkjuliano]

Personally, I consider Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the Book of Mormon, and everything else about Mormonism abominable, including every single one of their doctrines, down to the hideous architecture of their “temples”. In light of that, I think it is a sign of divine favor for them to say the same of our beliefs. Whoever is cursed by the devil is blessed by God. Essentially, that is what we call a “Sign of Contradiction”.

Moreover, it is an objective fact that Joseph Smith was a liar. The proof: the Book of Mormon, which he claimed to be the infallible word of God revealed to him by an angel, is negated by the archeological record in a total, complete and perfect way. There is not a scintilla of material evidence for anything mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and that does not go just for the supernatural events, but even for the most ordinary objects. Nothing mentioned in the Book of Mormon has ever been found, not one foundation of one house in one city, not one arrowhead, not one shard of pottery. Imagine if there were no evidence at all that the city of Jerusalem had ever existed, or that there had ever been such a people as the Hebrews; who in their right mind would then believe the Bible?

 

[benidict]

It has been mentioned quite often that mormons consider the creeds of other faiths abominable. And this has been brought out in quite a negative way toward the mormons. Below is an article that appeared in 1987 in the lds magazine Ensign about it. The magazine Ensign is a widely read publication of the lds church. Please read the short article and then there can be a discussion between the board members. :grouphug:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1987.htm/ensign%20july%201987.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0#LPTOC1

hi why me. interesting article. however, does it give specifics about what creeds and doctrines are abominable? i couldnt really find any. is it the Eucharist? is it the Apostles,Nicene creeds? is it the doctrine of the trinity? i find it interesting that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints agrees with the rest of Christiandom on the doctrine of the Trinity. will read the article again. maybe i missed the specifics. it is late but if it doesnt, maybe you might be able to point them out. it should make for interesting discussion. hopefully people can remain civil this time…thats my prayer at least peace

 

[KathleenGee]

why me,

These are the kind of writings that are devoid of truth and charity…and Mormons wonder why they are being mistreated at times by Christians.

This what I read in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’…my Mormon friends moved away and I was never able to speak with them about their faith…and to build a bridge of common faith. I felt betrayed to think this was being taught to such nice people.

It is incredulous that the Church could go on for 2,000 years without Christ…and we are all false. If you believe that, then what was the Lord’s point of even coming here 2,000 years ago. He needed to wait for America…in the 1800’s and the Stone Campbell movement.

I am sorry. I do not mean to hurt your feelings. But this article is the stuff charlatanism is made of…and you have to look at the fruits…it is keeping you away in its spirit of condemnation…and there are spirits, I am finding out with a few who come on to CAF from time to time, who do have a bad spirit…and a power with it. You, why me, are not at all in that…but when you are indoctrinated to believe such things, it does have a great power and blinding of you.

People come here all the time with quotes from the early church fathers…you can research the lives of the saints from each generation to the next. Christ has always been with us, He has always been faithful to us…the problem is not our faith and tenants and practices and liturgies, it is our own human nature we must deal with and struggle with every day.

God bless you!

 

[ParkerD]

hi why me. interesting article. however, does it give specifics about what creeds and doctrines are abominable? i couldnt really find any. is it the Eucharist? is it the Apostles,Nicene creeds? is it the doctrine of the trinity? i find it interesting that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints agrees with the rest of Christiandom on the doctrine of the Trinity. will read the article again. maybe i missed the specifics. it is late but if it doesnt, maybe you might be able to point them out. it should make for interesting discussion. hopefully people can remain civil this time…thats my prayer at least peace

Benidict,
I think you made a valid point about the article being only “general”. It should have pointed out that the words that sound harsh come right out of the Bible.

I think “denying the power thereof” (from 2 Timothy 3:5) has at least partly to do with the belief that Christ does not have the power to provide humankind the capacity, through His grace, to really and truly become like Him, and thus become like the Father since He is like the Father. That results in not seeking the kind of faith that Christ taught His disciples to seek: the faith “of a grain of mustard seed” or the faith to move mountains. The kind of pure faith that would be necessary at some point in eternity to speak, and matter and energy obey just like “the winds and the waves obey thy will.”

Christ wants to bring humankind to that capacity and that pure faith, but eternal laws are such that free will and choice are necessarily preserved perfectly along the way during the very long process of His teaching how to gain and have that kind of faith. That very long process will continue in the spirit world and even beyond, after the resurrection, but always by the free will and choice of the individual.

Some say such a power is not possible. It sounds implausible to human understanding. Yet Christ taught it, as did the apostle John.

Have a terrific day, and thanks for the expression of peace and good will.
Peace to you and all.

 

[KathleenGee]

People seek a pure faith in the Catholic Church…

and the purity is an action not of ourselves, but purity is a virtue and state of soul that comes from Jesus Christ and we receive His purity through the sacraments…and true repentance.

A just man, it says in Scripture, sins 7 times a day. People don’t want to sin, but the flesh leads one to sin and it comes about through weakness. The spirit is strong and the flesh is weak…

The perfections of Jesus Christ are the virtues we all hold dear.

So I will end with that. I have been on Mormon threads but I can not follow the ideas.

 

[catholic-rcia]

It has been mentioned quite often that mormons consider the creeds of other faiths abominable. And this has been brought out in quite a negative way toward the mormons. Below is an article that appeared in 1987 in the lds magazine Ensign about it. The magazine Ensign is a widely read publication of the lds church. Please read the short article and then there can be a discussion between the board members. :grouphug:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1987.htm/ensign%20july%201987.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0#LPTOC1

This is directed to the lds here:
What I have come to love about the Catholic Church is her Creed and every one of her Doctrines. I just read the Article as well and everything I have read in it points to the LDS Church, not the Catholic Church.

We have the Most Holy Eucharist in all of it wonder, authenticity, depth and reverence. With the Holy Scriptures and our Church Tradition to keep it safe, the Holy Spirit to help us discern it, to allow it to sustain us.

We have the Great Sacrament of Confession to remind us of the love God has for us when we turn to Him with trust and humility, in sincerity, and honesty. To admit we are sinners, a smile that says “you know I love you right” A few tears, a nod, a returned smile and then the “Oh yes my Lord, I do know this my Lord” Then the freedom to move on, to continue on the road that is always about healing from our fallen nature, always loving us back home to the Father.

The Communion of Saints, all of which had stood in this line we call confession, to be with them at all times and them with us at all times. But never stronger than at each Mass performed where we not only remember what Jesus has done for each of us, but actually attend the One Sacrifice, where it becomes present to us in the here and now. Where the Eucharist among the symbols become as real today as it was 2000 years ago. The perpetual Sacrifice where we proclaim the death of Christ until He comes again. This death that brings us new life.

Marriage where we learn to love in units, within our families to teach us the Love within the Most Holy Trinity to prepare us for un measured love tp come. Where love will no longer be measured as it is in the family, where it will be poured out in equal measure, yet not measured at all. Where God will be our God and we will be His Children.

We have the Cross, the greatest symbol for all Christians. The Cross that Satan hates because it not only symbolizes what Jesus has done for us but is a perpetual reminder of Satan’s defeat. The Cross in the Catholic Church, with Christ in his agony reminds us of our sin, what we have done, what we have failed to do, and what Christ has done for us. We ask the Church, all the saints and angels to pray for each of us to the Lord our God. That Crucifix shows us how much our God loves us by laying down His life for us. By pouring out His love and mercy to all who come face to face with their own sin, He teaches us forgiveness. The Cross teaches us humility, which is the opposite of pride. It reminds us of who Christ is, and who we are. “Jesus came to pay a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay” - Unknown. utahmission.com/pages/Cross_scripture.html

And oh my Lord how can we not mention our adored Mother Mary who continually points to Her son saying “do as He asks” She is with each of us at every moment of our day, but her presence is never so great as it is at Mass. Our lives in Christ built on the shoulders of the Holy Family, the Family of Saints, and the “family” that makes up the “community” of Christ.

Now I am going to get serious, understanding why Jesus would over turn the tables …. How dare you come here and speak of these things dear to us as apostasies. We already know we are sinners, do you not know that you will be judged as you yourself judge others? Our lives in Christ are built on the shoulders of the Holy Family, the Family of Saints, and the “family” that makes up the “community”

Everything about Christ’s Church is here to remind us all of the sacrifice made to bring the “family of man” out of sin’s bondage (Heb. 12:1),

could you face Jesus Himself today and tell Him about this apostasy you speak to us about? I would suggest not doing that, I would suggest you fall to your knees together with us saying “Lord Jesus have mercy on me a sinner”

In Christ and with Love from Him
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[KathleenGee]

God bless you, Rich!

Why me…don’t look at such things…they are not of the Lord…don’t waste your time…seek the truth!

 

[why_me]

why me,

These are the kind of writings that are devoid of truth and charity…and Mormons wonder why they are being mistreated at times by Christians.
God bless you!

Hello Kathleen!

I think that the discussion would need to take on a more indepth analysis. Would God find fault in the christian faiths that existed in 1820? This is the question that needs addressing. Christianity was full of bloodshed by 1820. I have already pointed out the religious wars that engulfed Europe for a well over a hundred years between the catholics and protestants. Plus, we also have excesses in the colonies of the European empires as christian europeans tended to look down on native populations.

And so, were the christian faiths teaching the doctrines of men or of god? The mormons would say both. As the article claims, other faiths do have truth and mormons should embrace such truths but also reject the doctrines of men.

 

[why_me]

hi why me. interesting article. however, does it give specifics about what creeds and doctrines are abominable? i couldnt really find any. is it the Eucharist? is it the Apostles,Nicene creeds? is it the doctrine of the trinity? i find it interesting that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints agrees with the rest of Christiandom on the doctrine of the Trinity. will read the article again. maybe i missed the specifics. it is late but if it doesnt, maybe you might be able to point them out. it should make for interesting discussion. hopefully people can remain civil this time…thats my prayer at least peace

I think that one must look at christianity at the micro level up until 1820. What exactly was going on in the christian faiths? Were there injustices commited in the name of god. And would they continue in the name of god? What were the small corruptions between church and state that directly affected people’s lives? And would god have the right to be just a little angry with the faiths that represented his name?

These are some questions that would need to be dicussed and answered.

 

[why_me]

Personally, I consider Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the Book of Mormon, and everything else about Mormonism abominable, including every single one of their doctrines, down to the hideous architecture of their “temples”. In light of that, I think it is a sign of divine favor for them to say the same of our beliefs. Whoever is cursed by the devil is blessed by God. Essentially, that is what we call a “Sign of Contradiction”.

Moreover, it is an objective fact that Joseph Smith was a liar. The proof: the Book of Mormon, which he claimed to be the infallible word of God revealed to him by an angel, is negated by the archeological record in a total, complete and perfect way. There is not a scintilla of material evidence for anything mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and that does not go just for the supernatural events, but even for the most ordinary objects. Nothing mentioned in the Book of Mormon has ever been found, not one foundation of one house in one city, not one arrowhead, not one shard of pottery. Imagine if there were no evidence at all that the city of Jerusalem had ever existed, or that there had ever been such a people as the Hebrews; who in their right mind would then believe the Bible?

I think that it is time for a group hug…is everyone ready…lets hug! :grouphug:

 

[soren1]

It has been mentioned quite often that mormons consider the creeds of other faiths abominable. And this has been brought out in quite a negative way toward the mormons. Below is an article that appeared in 1987 in the lds magazine Ensign about it. The magazine Ensign is a widely read publication of the lds church. Please read the short article and then there can be a discussion between the board members. :grouphug:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1987.htm/ensign%20july%201987.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0#LPTOC1

This article illustrates a point that I have already been stressing on the Great Apostasy thread: Catholic responses to LDS Apostasy claims need to take priesthood authority into account. The essence of the Apostasy is not, in their view, a total loss of all righteousness from the earth, or even of Christian devotion, but a loss of the priesthood. Hence the article says:
*
Gospel ordinances that resemble in form those that Deity has declared necessary for salvation but that lack divine priesthood authority, are not accepted by God and therefore lack the power to save souls. Furthermore, no matter how sincere a person’s intentions may be in performing or receiving a gospel ordinance, if the ordinance is performed without authority recognized by God, it has no power to save.*

Only when we fully acknowledge that this is the Mormon claim can we show them why it is anti-Biblical: for God swore by his own name that after the coming of the Messiah, the priesthood would be perpetual on earth. (See all of Jer 33.)

 

[benidict]

I think that it is time for a group hug…is everyone ready…lets hug! :grouphug:

:grouphug: i agree. group hug time.lol! peace

 

[benidict]

Benidict,
I think you made a valid point about the article being only “general”. It should have pointed out that the words that sound harsh come right out of the Bible.

I think “denying the power thereof” (from 2 Timothy 3:5) has at least partly to do with the belief that Christ does not have the power to provide humankind the capacity, through His grace, to really and truly become like Him, and thus become like the Father since He is like the Father. That results in not seeking the kind of faith that Christ taught His disciples to seek: the faith “of a grain of mustard seed” or the faith to move mountains. The kind of pure faith that would be necessary at some point in eternity to speak, and matter and energy obey just like “the winds and the waves obey thy will.”

Christ wants to bring humankind to that capacity and that pure faith, but eternal laws are such that free will and choice are necessarily preserved perfectly along the way during the very long process of His teaching how to gain and have that kind of faith. That very long process will continue in the spirit world and even beyond, after the resurrection, but always by the free will and choice of the individual.

Some say such a power is not possible. It sounds implausible to human understanding. Yet Christ taught it, as did the apostle John.

Have a terrific day, and thanks for the expression of peace and good will.
Peace to you and all.

hi parker. i am going to wake up a bit more, and answer this. we may not be too far apart on this particular issue than you might think. im going to tread some pretty thin ice, and any fellow Catholic can feel free to correct me if i say the wrong thing. there is something that you wrote, that most protestants miss. and that we as Catholics have a similar understanding on. will get back to you. didnt sleep well, and the starbucks aint kickin in.lol! peace

 

[ForeverGrace]

If I may, I live in a heavily populated Mormon state (nope, not Utah). But I have studied their doctrines in some detail. Joseph Smith (the founder) claimed to have had a vision from an angelic being called Moroni who told him that all of the religions on the earth were an abomination. He was called to be a prophet. If you really study this, you’ll find out that he kind of made things up as he went along. They believe they will all live on a planet called Kolob and that there are three levels of heaven. They do not believe that Jesus was Deity, let alone the son of God. They believe he was married and has many spirit children. Of all the religions I’ve studied, the Mormons are the most polytheistic of all. In fact, they believe that they too will be minor gods (little g). There wards and in some cases their stake presidents looks at the tax returns of their members to ensure they have paid their complete tithe. IF they haven’t, they cannot get a ‘temple recommend’. Thus they are shunned to the lowest levels of the faith.

Having said all that, the Mormons live lives that many would envy. They are dedicated to their families and their neighbors. They are charitable towards others.

Every Mormon sees another person as a potential convert. I will be happy to provide a list of the problems of their Doctrines and Covenants, The Book of Mormon and how it holds up to the Bible. You’ll be quite surprised. I do not want to violate any of the rules of this forum as I am a guest here as a non-catholic. Just send me a pm and I’ll get you the information you need to decide for yourself.

 

[benidict]

If I may, I live in a heavily populated Mormon state (nope, not Utah). But I have studied their doctrines in some detail. Joseph Smith (the founder) claimed to have had a vision from an angelic being called Moroni who told him that all of the religions on the earth were an abomination. He was called to be a prophet. If you really study this, you’ll find out that he kind of made things up as he went along. They believe they will all live on a planet called Kolob and that there are three levels of heaven. They do not believe that Jesus was Deity, let alone the son of God. They believe he was married and has many spirit children. Of all the religions I’ve studied, the Mormons are the most polytheistic of all. In fact, they believe that they too will be minor gods (little g). There wards and in some cases their stake presidents looks at the tax returns of their members to ensure they have paid their complete tithe. IF they haven’t, they cannot get a ‘temple recommend’. Thus they are shunned to the lowest levels of the faith.

Having said all that, the Mormons live lives that many would envy. They are dedicated to their families and their neighbors. They are charitable towards others.

Every Mormon sees another person as a potential convert. I will be happy to provide a list of the problems of their Doctrines and Covenants, The Book of Mormon and how it holds up to the Bible. You’ll be quite surprised. I do not want to violate any of the rules of this forum as I am a guest here as a non-catholic. Just send me a pm and I’ll get you the information you need to decide for yourself.

good morning forevergrace welcome to CAF. two things you said struck me as interesting. one is the little god phrase. were you aware back in the 1980’s that kenneth copeland used such phrase? stating we were little gods? i remember my baptist preacher bringing this up when he was explaining why kenneth was a false prophet. so the teaching is not only found in Mormonism. and just for grins and giggles. its been my experience that its the fundamentalist see people they meet as a potential convert especially us pagan Catholics. never had a conversation with a Mormon, where they tried to convert me. hold it… one time at the visitors center in hawaii at the temple this happened. i didnt mind. she was pretty. and it was a very good exchange of views. glad your here. peace to you and yours

 

[soren1]

If I may, I live in a heavily populated Mormon state (nope, not Utah). But I have studied their doctrines in some detail. Joseph Smith (the founder) claimed to have had a vision from an angelic being called Moroni who told him that all of the religions on the earth were an abomination. He was called to be a prophet. If you really study this, you’ll find out that he kind of made things up as he went along. They believe they will all live on a planet called Kolob and that there are three levels of heaven. They do not believe that Jesus was Deity, let alone the son of God. They believe he was married and has many spirit children.

Moroni did not tell Smith that other religions are abominations, but Elohim told him that in the First Vision. Mormons do not believe that we will live on Kolob but that God does inhabit a place near to Kolob. They think Jesus is a diety, but not in the monotheistic sense that we do, and the believe he is the Son of God, but only in a material sense, not in the sense of his eternal procession from the Father.

Of all the religions I’ve studied, the Mormons are the most polytheistic of all.

Agreed.

In fact, they believe that they too will be minor gods (little g).

Actually, they think they will be Gods with a capital “G” with respect to the worlds that they will rule, but with a little “g” relative to to God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

There wards and in some cases their stake presidents looks at the tax returns of their members to ensure they have paid their complete tithe. IF they haven’t, they cannot get a ‘temple recommend’. Thus they are shunned to the lowest levels of the faith.

There have been cases when bishops have examined tax returns and … the Mormon leadership has discouraged them from doing so, for the obvious reasons that it is invasive and insulting. This is not a normal or reputable practice in the LDS Church.

Having said all that, the Mormons live lives that many would envy. They are dedicated to their families and their neighbors. They are charitable towards others.

I don’t think they any better than the rest of us, but I don’t criticize them for that.

Every Mormon sees another person as a potential convert. I will be happy to provide a list of the problems of their Doctrines and Covenants, The Book of Mormon and how it holds up to the Bible. You’ll be quite surprised. I do not want to violate any of the rules of this forum as I am a guest here as a non-catholic. Just send me a pm and I’ll get you the information you need to decide for yourself.

You seem to be so confused about LDS teaching that I can only imagine that you got your information from anti-Mormon fundamentalist literature. The way you make your claims shows all the markings of such influence. You would be better off examining actual Mormon publications, such as their Gospel Principles. Then you will be better able to read the related literature more critically.

 

[RebeccaJ]

one time at the visitors center in hawaii at the temple this happened. i didnt mind. she was pretty. and it was a very good exchange of views.

On a side not…Always strikes me as humorous when someone says this. As it is always the pretty (what my young male coworkers would call HOT) sister missionaries who work at mormon temple visitor centers. lol. Not really an accident that they are picked out for this “work”.

 

[soren1]

good morning forevergrace welcome to CAF. two things you said struck me as interesting. one is the little god phrase. were you aware back in the 1980’s that kenneth copeland used such phrase? stating we were little gods? i remember my baptist preacher bringing this up when he was explaining why kenneth was a false prophet. so the teaching is not only found in Mormonism. and just for grins and giggles. its been my experience that its the fundamentalist see people they meet as a potential convert especially us pagan Catholics. never had a conversation with a Mormon, where they tried to convert me. hold it… one time at the visitors center in hawaii at the temple this happened. i didnt mind. she was pretty. and it was a very good exchange of views. glad your here. peace to you and yours

The teaching that we become Gods is unique to Mormonism because they interpret deification in the sense that exalted human beings becomes Gods in a strictly univocal sense: we will be what God is, simply. This is possible because the matter of which our bodies and souls are made are eternal in the same way that God is: “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29) As a result, man grows to be God as a natural process of developing his inherent divine potential.

This contrasts with the monotheistic teaching of the Fathers which states that man will become like God by means of supernatural gift (not natural development!), as the proximity of our spirits to him brings an infusion of God’s nature into our nature, allowing to become something greater than is conceivable in terms of our inherent potential.

In Catholic terms we partake of the divine nature, precisely because our natures are not the same as his. In Mormonism, we are self-possessors of our own divine nature, so that we attain a separate godly status in our own right.

 

[benidict]

The teaching that we become Gods is unique to Mormonism because they interpret deification in the sense that exalted human beings becomes Gods in a strictly univocal sense: we will be what God is, simply. This is possible because the matter of which our bodies and souls are made are eternal in the same way that God is: “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29) As a result, man grows to be God as a natural process of developing his inherent divine potential.

This contrasts with the monotheistic teaching of the Fathers which states that man will become like God by means of supernatural gift (not natural development!), as the proximity of our spirits to him brings an infusion of God’s nature into our nature, allowing to become something greater than is conceivable in terms of our inherent potential.

In Catholic terms we partake of the divine nature, precisely because our natures are not the same as his. In Mormonism, we are self-possessors of our own divine nature, so that we attain a separate godly status in our own right.

i really appreciate you soren. my caffine refuses to kick in this morning. i was going to make this exact point to parker. but you beat me to it and probably explained it better than i ever could. many thanks. peace