Cremation, ossuaries, re-use of graves

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In Europe cremation is very popular. Also, you have to pay a hefty price there for a “permanent” grave site, because in most cases, bones are turned out after a certain number of years, put into an ossuary, and the grave is re-used. And in the UK the cemeteries are so full they’re now talking about digging up old graves, reburying the people deeper, and putting in extra “tenants.”

My point is this–I’m thinking of moving to Europe and living there the rest of my life and I’m wondering how any of this fits in–if it even does–with Catholic beliefs and practices.
 
Hipster_Doofus said:
In Europe cremation is very popular. Also, you have to pay a hefty price there for a “permanent” grave site, because in most cases, bones are turned out after a certain number of years, put into an ossuary, and the grave is re-used. And in the UK the cemeteries are so full they’re now talking about digging up old graves, reburying the people deeper, and putting in extra “tenants.”

My point is this–I’m thinking of moving to Europe and living there the rest of my life and I’m wondering how any of this fits in–if it even does–with Catholic beliefs and practices.
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The Catholic Church disapproves of cremation, but one may have it done given certain circumstances. Graves should not be disturbed, but again, there are rare circumstances where it is allowed. The Orthodox are much more strict on burials than Catholics…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
But what do observant Catholics do in countries where their remains get turned out of their graves?
 
Hipster_Doofus said:
But what do observant Catholics do in countries where their remains get turned out of their graves?
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Nothing. They’re dead…😃

Sorry for that. In that case, I think the Church would accept it. The bones would probably be placed in an ossuary. It is disturbing. It also depends where you are moving and in what type of casket. This is going to sound morbid, but in the hotter countries, the body decays faster. For example, in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, a person is not embalmed. They are buried in a plain pine casket, so that they may return to ground. Cremation is prohibited. Likewise, there is no vault to protect them. In that case, the body may rot away much faster along with the casket and that is it. With monks, they are not buried, but left in catacombs and their remains are marked anonymously. There have been cases where the bones are later dug up and placed in an ossuary, but ideally, that is not supposed to be done. Most Catholics are buried with a metal casket and vault, so that may be a problem in the case of overcrowding. If you want to avoid that (and as a bonus, help your family save alot of money), then I suggest a simple pine casket. Don’t get embalmed either. That way, by the time they need more burial grounds, you’ll be long gone. I don’t think it’s as much a problem as some think in Europe, but only time will tell. Cremation is not ideal, but if it must be done, it should be done with utmost care. One can only hope that future generations will not dig them up, but only GOD knows. Sometimes, people are buried on top of each other, but that is likewise rare. It really depends on where you are moving to…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
Evidently, removing bones from graves after a certain number of years, and putting them in ossuaries in common in many countries. In our years in the foreign service, we have lived in two countries that did this, Cuba and Argentina. We were very taken aback when we first heard of these customs because it is not what we are use to. When we were in France last spring visiting cemeteries where my husband’s ancestors were buried, we were shocked to find out that my father-in-law’s great aunt had been evicted from her grave! An elderly lady who we met in the cemetery told us that if families don’t keep up with the fee (I don’t know if it is rent or what) on the plot then the bones are removed, and the plot is “rented” (if that is the right term) to another family. They placed the family monument against the cemetery wall so we could see it. We had seen notices on certain plots sighed by the mayor. We don’t speak French so we didn’t know what these signs were about, but we then figured that they were warnings that these families needed to pay up! The cemetery in this town anyway, belongs to the municipality and not the Church. Maybe a European on the forum could explain these customs to us.
 
Please note that in the US it is typical to have a “perpetual care” contract with the cemetary so that the upkeep on the grave is paid for at the time the plot is purchased.
With regard the reuse of graves ~ this is a common practice and should not be a problem vis a vis the church. After all it has been going on for centuries.
There is nothing in Catholic doctrine which defines explicitly what a resurected body might be. The care and handling of the body after death is supposed to reflect our belief in bodily resurrection. But we have no way of knowing how God will go about giving each of us a body at the resurrection. I’m fairly certain that it will not be the same body we have at death so the whole business of burial vs. cremation is just a lot of hot air.

Matthew
 
My understanding of Catholic thought is that there would be a grave so as the person would be remembered by those living, and those living would pray for this person. It was never so that the body would be ready for the Resurrection. This is also the reason that the Church wants ashes buried, as opposed to scattered at sea, etc, so that there is a marker and reminder to pray for the person.
 
My understanding of the current rules is that the Chuch is ok with cremation as long as it’s not chosen as way to go against the belief in the resurrection of the body.

My (Catholic) family has graves (in ground) and tombs (above ground) in New Orleans and both have been in use for generations. After awhile, there’s nothing left of the bodies/caskets and there is room for new inhabitants. Although, there is one ancestor who insisted on an expensive metal casket for his mother and the rest of our family has been a touch annoyed - that spot was going to be taken for awhile. 😦

There is nothing wrong with re-using the space.
 
Alexius said:
The Catholic Church disapproves of cremation…
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This is not a correct statement. The Church is not opposed to Catholic creamation. Any Catholic may be cremated, as long as it is not being done to make a statement against belief in the resurrection. Your ashes may not be scattered. They must be buried. (I think a mausoleum is acceptable as well.)
 
Any Catholic may be cremated, as long as it is not being done to make a statement against belief in the resurrection. Your ashes may not be scattered. They must be buried. (I think a mausoleum is acceptable as well.)

You are correct! 👍

I speak from experience as my father passed away a few years ago. I spoke with my parish Pastor about this as one of my Dad’s last requests was to be cremated.

I got the impression that the Church is not wild about cremation, but is acceptable, with a caveat or two for my situation.

I apologise in advance if the following info sounds morbid, but hey, death is the last part of life. It’s the great equaliser!

I wanted a Catholic funeral mass and my Pastor said the body had to remain whole for that. After the mass the body could be cremated.

Since my family decided on an open casket for the memorial service, which was a week after he passed, the funeral director said he would need to be embalmed, even though he was to be cremated shortly after the memorial service. He gave two reasons for this, one, cosmetic, two, if I recall correctly, my states law requires embalming after a certain number of days.

As my Dad was a Navy veteran, another final wish was to be placed aboard a US Navy vessal and have his ashes scattered at sea. Apparently due to regulations and/or environmental laws, the Navy does not scatter the ashes. He was buried at sea in his container intact. Whew! That got me off the hook. I did the best I could to honor his final wishes and remain faithful to the Catholic Church’s teachings on burying a member.

By the way, my son is in the Navy, so I sent his Grandfather’s remains to his ship. When he deployed to sea, he gave the eulogy. The Navy sent a DVD of the ceremony and it was quite touching. I have only watched it a few times since then as tears tend to well up in my eyes.

Hope this info helps, as sooner or later we all have to deal with our mortality. Also, some of you reading this may be the point person on planning the funeral for a loved one.

Yours in Christ,
Steve
 
Yes, apparently a lot of people are confused on the issue of scattering at sea. When JFK, Jr. died they buried his ashes and those of his wife and sister-in-law at sea, and some people grumbled that the Catholic Church was making an exception for the wealthy and powerful Kennedys or that the priests/Bishops/Archbishops in charge of the service violated canon law by scattering the ashes.

In fact, my understanding is that though cremation was apparently considered an offense worthy of excommunication at the turn of the 20th century, Pope Paul VI allowed it and in the 1980s it got more of a sanction here in the US. Burial is still encouraged, but cremation is allowed.

While I am afraid of fire, I am disgusted by the idea of worms coursing through me, so I’m opting for cremation.

But what I don’t follow is if the Church considers it disrespectful to scatter the ashes of a former body that was once sanctified with Baptism, how is disinterring those ashes and dumping them in a common place/pit/whatever you’d call it not just as disrespectful?

I know someone mentioned the idea was having some place for people to come pray for the deceased, but would that function be served by a memorial plaque on a wall or something? Understand, I’m not beating a drum here or promoting one view over another, I’m just curious what the thinking is–especially overseas.
 
jpjd said:
This is not a correct statement. The Church is not opposed to Catholic creamation. Any Catholic may be cremated, as long as it is not being done to make a statement against belief in the resurrection. Your ashes may not be scattered. They must be buried. (I think a mausoleum is acceptable as well.)
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The point is that burial is the proper form and the ideal one. Traditional, the Church buried the dead…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
Here in Ireland cremation is not common at all - I think there are only two or the crematoriums in the whole country… Most people are buried and we generally don’t have problems with overcrowding in graveyards.

I do have a rather interesting story though - when my grandmother died in 1989 she was buried in a plot which was between her parents-in-law and an unrelated family plot. A few years later my grandfathers brother died and he was buried on the other side of his parents. By this time there was I think only one more space left beside my grandfather’s brother. When my grandfather died in 1996 it was assumed that he would be buried in the vacant space beside his brother, but then that would have meant that when his other siblings died, one would have to be buried on top of my grandmother! The family thought it more proper to leave the vacant plot vacant for the time being and bury my grandfather with (i.e. on top of) his wife… So that is what happened - he was buried with my grandmother 7 years later - and the plot which was vacant remains so as his other 3 siblings are still with us.

However, I think this is rare really and would only be done in exceptional circumstances. I don’t know what the situation is like on mainland Europe - certainly traditionally they would have buried their dead, but certainly in the big urban centres, overcrowding is a real problem. (I think I heard that some countries - Brazil maybe- had started multi-storey graveyards to help ease overcrowding, but I don’t know if it has caught on). I think on Mainland Europe it is very expensive to maintain a burial plot - in Austria, as far as I know, the family pays a yearly rent on plots, so obviously this could become expensive, thus making cremation a more cost-effective solution.
 
But I assume even with cremation your family would have to pay rent on the niche or plot and risk getting turned out of that.
 
This topic fascinates me. I had never considered cremation until recently. My wife wants to be cremated and have her ashes scattered. She is not catholic, and doesn’t agree with the catholic teaching about this. However, I am not sure I could agree to do this for her because I am catholic.

On the other hand, I have always had a problem with the idea of being stuck in the ground and letting the worms crawl around through my body. For a long time I liked the idea of being entombed above ground. Then I wanted to have my body shot into space. I’m not sure where I stand now.

I was actually discussing this with a friend of another religion which does not oppose cremation and/or scattering. He had two great points. One, what about those people who have been buried, are dead and gone for ages, and whose bodies have disappeared? What if some of thier body elements have been eaten by worns and turned into other elements, including food. What if we have elements of their bodies in our bodies today? Is God going to take those pieces out of us to give them their bodies back? Then we’ll have holes all over because of that? Of course not.

His other point was, if God created the universe, he’ll be more than able to give us back our bodies, whether they are turned to ash and scattered all over, or rotting in a grave, or long gone after centuries of burial. It’s not going to matter where our bodies are at, He knows what He is doing and is capable of doing it just fine.

So frankly, I don’t know where I stand on the whole issue of cremation for my wife.
 
I had been leaning towards being entombed above-ground in a vault or mausoleum until I worked for a time for a funeral home. It turns out that method is pretty disgusting too. The body breaks down and the liquids make a sort of yucky soup in the vault.

Each vault has a little exhaust pipe, so to speak, because if the gases built up by the decomposing body didn’t have someplace to go they would build up and blast the front off of the crypt.

I have a friend who subscribes to a hodgepodge of beliefs, but is about 60% Mormon. Supposedly they feel that after the end of the world everyone’s bodies will be resurrected completely. (I cannot vouch for these statements–this is just what my friend claims.)

My friend’s take on this is that every molecule that has ever been part of our bodies during our lifespan will be brought back together, resulting in resurrection bodies that are presumably enormous. He may be pulling my leg, but either way, the theory is ridiculous.
 
thomasf said:
This topic fascinates me. I had never considered cremation until recently. My wife wants to be cremated and have her ashes scattered. She is not catholic, and doesn’t agree with the catholic teaching about this. However, I am not sure I could agree to do this for her because I am catholic.

On the other hand, I have always had a problem with the idea of being stuck in the ground and letting the worms crawl around through my body. For a long time I liked the idea of being entombed above ground. Then I wanted to have my body shot into space. I’m not sure where I stand now.

I was actually discussing this with a friend of another religion which does not oppose cremation and/or scattering. He had two great points. One, what about those people who have been buried, are dead and gone for ages, and whose bodies have disappeared? What if some of thier body elements have been eaten by worns and turned into other elements, including food. What if we have elements of their bodies in our bodies today? Is God going to take those pieces out of us to give them their bodies back? Then we’ll have holes all over because of that? Of course not.

His other point was, if God created the universe, he’ll be more than able to give us back our bodies, whether they are turned to ash and scattered all over, or rotting in a grave, or long gone after centuries of burial. It’s not going to matter where our bodies are at, He knows what He is doing and is capable of doing it just fine.

So frankly, I don’t know where I stand on the whole issue of cremation for my wife.
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While the Catholic Church prefers burial, cremation is permitted. If Catholics can be cremated, why not a non-Catholic?

Your issue seems to be carrying out her wishes which violates Catholic teaching. You could have her parent(s) if living, or other of her siblings handle the final arrangements to keep yourself out of the issue. But, then you might be blamed for usurping your duties and responsibilities as her husband.

You might want to talk to your parish Priest about this and if he doesn’t have an answer to your query ask him if he, or you could contact your Bishop for clarification. :highprayer:

Since cremation is permitted, I would assume that the Church must have something in writing concerning cremation. Does anybody else out there in the ether-world know if this subject is in the Catechism, or some other Church document? If so, please post it here, or let us know the source so we can clarify the standing of the Church on this. Also, does anybody know if cremation is a venial sin?

As for myself, I am fence sitting on this issue as well. :juggle: Hmmm, do I want to become worm food, or be thoroughly well-done in the easy-bake oven? :hmmm: Yea, I know when you are dead you don’t feel anything, but the thought of a glimpse of hell or purgatory gives me pause. Call me nuerotic if you like. But hey, most of us have experienced burns, one of the worst pains in my opinion. That’s why I am working on a e-ticket with a straight line to heaven. Don’t know if I will get it, but I think we all would like to bypass hell and purgatory. :bigyikes: :crossrc:

Yours in Christ,
Steve
 
Hipster_Doofus said:
I had been leaning towards being entombed above-ground in a vault or mausoleum until I worked for a time for a funeral home. It turns out that method is pretty disgusting too. The body breaks down and the liquids make a sort of yucky soup in the vault.

Each vault has a little exhaust pipe, so to speak, because if the gases built up by the decomposing body didn’t have someplace to go they would build up and blast the front off of the crypt. .
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Thanks for sharing that! Dinner is cooking and I’m getting hungry! 😃 🍕
Hipster_Doofus said:
I have a friend who subscribes to a hodgepodge of beliefs, but is about 60% Mormon. Supposedly they feel that after the end of the world everyone’s bodies will be resurrected completely. (I cannot vouch for these statements–this is just what my friend claims.)

My friend’s take on this is that every molecule that has ever been part of our bodies during our lifespan will be brought back together, resulting in resurrection bodies that are presumably enormous. He may be pulling my leg, but either way, the theory is ridiculous. .
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Not trying to start a new thread, but Mormons also believe that when they die they will become gods and get their own planet to rule over. You have to take what they say with a grain or two of salt. Just my HO. :rolleyes: :twocents:

Yours in Christ,
Steve
 
Hipster_Doofus said:
Here’s some of what I found, Steve:

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1097.asp

frpat.com/cremation.htm

holyroodcemetery.org/teachingcremation.pdf

archatl.com/offices/odw/cremation.html

uscatholic.claretians.org/site/PageServer?
pagename=usc_webspecial_soundingboard

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=645

seaservices.com/catholic.htm

diocese-sacramento.org/parishes/
PDFs/CremationAdredo.pdf
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Thanks Hipster! Hey, you live in Sacramento area? I lived in Folsom for 15 years and plan on moving back hopefully later this year.

Steve
 
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