Cremation Questions

[michellebuga]

I will try to make this short… I am an only child and Catholic convert, my father is agnostic, and my step-mother is a very fallen-away Catholic. My father informed me that when they pass away whoever goes first will hold onto the others’ ashes until he or she passes and then they would like for my husband and I to combined their ashes, fly to Hawaii and fling them on the beach. Romantic, right? So while I am not at all jazzed about all of this, it’s their funeral. Will honoring their wishes, when the time comes, cause me to commit a sin?

Thanks and God bless!
Michelle

 

[Joe_5859]

Spreading someone’s ashes or keeping them on a mantlepiece is not consistent with Catholic teaching on the respect owed to the deceased.

Here’s someone asking Catholic Answers This Rock mgazine the same question: catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/cremation

 

[EasterJoy]

This is from the funeral policies of the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon:
archdpdx.org/liturgy/documents/funeral-policies.pdf
These are according to canon law, but may be a little different than what the bishop of Honolulu has in place at the time your parents are laid to rest:

Topic 4: Who may not have a Catholic funeral liturgy?
Summary: The Code of Canon Law states that “Laws which establish a penalty or restrict the free exercise of rights or which contain an exception to the law are subject to a strict interpretation”
[Canon 18]
Those who are not permitted an ecclesiastical funeral according to Canons 1184 and 1185 are limited only to those of the canon. The pastor or parochial vicar does not have the right to add to the following list:

1. Apostates or those who express a total post-baptismal repudiation of the Christian faith;
2. Heretics or those who hold an obstinate post-baptismal denial or doubt about some truth that is to be believed as part of divine and Catholic faith;
3. Schismatics or those who hold a post-baptismal refusal of submission to the Holy Father or of communion with the members of the church subject to him.
   These sins warranting denial of the ecclesiastical funeral rites must be notorious or publicly known and would be of great cause for scandal. The same is true for those who are excluded from ecclesiastical funerals, such as those who have been officially excommunicated or have had a legitimate interdict placed upon them as a penalty. Such cases should be referred to the local ordinary who is to be consulted and his judgment followed.
   Archdiocese of Portland:
   • In the case of someone who is not allowed an “ecclesiastical” funeral, a priest or parish minister may lead a service of prayer and scripture for the deceased at the cemetery or in the funeral director’s chapel.
   • A priest/minister may not refuse funeral rites for a Catholic without the permission of the local Ordinary

Topic 5: What are the accepted means of laying the deceased to rest?
Summary: Canons 1176 §3 and 1180:
The Church maintains and earnestly recommends that the members of the faithful observe the pious custom of burying the bodies of the deceased.
However, the Church also holds cremation as an option and does not prohibit its practice unless it is chosen for purposes that are contrary to the Christian faith, such as:
a) the deceased or those responsible for his or her burial have no belief in the resurrection;
b) the choice is based on a sectarian spirit;
c) there is a hatred of the Catholic religion or the Church.

It would be most proper that, if a parish has its own cemetery, deceased members of the faithful of that parish should be buried in it, unless the deceased or those given charge of his or her burial arrangements have legitimately chosen another cemetery for the final burial.

The “Appendix” of the Order of Christian Funerals adds: “The cremated remains should be buried in a grave or entombed in a mausoleum or columbarium. The practice of scattering cremated remains on the sea, from the air, or on the ground, or keeping cremated remains in the home of a relative or friend of the deceased are not the reverent disposition that the Church requires. Whenever possible, appropriate means for recording with dignity the memory of the deceased should be adopted, such as a plaque or stone which records the name of the deceased”
#417.Archdiocese of Portland:
• Archdiocesan and parish cemeteries should make provision for the interment of cremated remains.
• Burial at sea is allowed. Cremated remains should be submerged in a container–not scattered.
• A priest or parish minister should not preside or lead prayers in a committal service during which the cremated remains are scattered, rather than interred.

Unless your parents are planning to have their remains cremated precisely in order to spit in the eye of the Catholic faith, the Church does allow you to have your parents’ remains cremated, when it is up to you.

The last of your parents to die has the legal right to dispose of or keep the ashes of the other parent. If they ask your opinion, you can give it, but it is not your business to try to force them to follow canon law. You couldn’t keep Mom’s ashes on your mantle, but if Dad does, you are not bound to do anything about it.

Common sense will tell you that it is not a good idea to go flinging someone’s ashes in an area subject to on-shore gusts. C’mon, Dad and Mom. We want you together in the Pacific near Hawaii, not all over my new wedding-grade Hawaiian shirt. Not romantic.

No one wants to whack their surf board into an the urn bobbing just off the beach, either, or have their child run up excitedly with “Look, Daddy! Pirate treasure!!”. Definitely not romantic.

When the time comes, you can take your parents’ ashes to Hawaii, bind them together with something heavy, and inter them together from a boat, into a deep part of the ocean from which their remains won’t come rolling to shore in an inelegant manner. It is not just the Church that votes in favor of this option. Common sense dictates it, too.

It is unlikely that your parents want an ecclesiastical funeral, so whether that is allowed is kind of a moot point. Funerals are for the living, too, though. Catholic priests and deacons can be allowed to assist at the non-ecclesiatical internments of the relatives of Catholics. If you want to find a priest or deacon to help you with the internment ceremony, the diocese of Honolulu can undoubtedly help you find one.

You may want to ask your mom to fill you in on her wishes for the disposition of their remains, in case she has something to add to (or subtract from) your dad’s wishes. Then you can take both into account when the time comes.

 

[Thomas63116]

Unless your parents are planning to have their remains cremated precisely in order to spit in the eye of the Catholic faith, the Church does allow you to have your parents’ remains cremated, when it is up to you.

The last of your parents to die has the legal right to dispose of or keep the ashes of the other parent. If they ask your opinion, you can give it, but it is not your business to try to force them to follow canon law. You couldn’t keep Mom’s ashes on your mantle, but if Dad does, you are not bound to do anything about it.

When the time comes, you can take your parents’ ashes to Hawaii, bind them together with something heavy, and inter them together from a boat, into a deep part of the ocean from which their remains won’t come rolling to shore in an inelegant manner. It is not just the Church that votes in favor of this option. Common sense dictates it, too.

It is unlikely that your parents want an ecclesiastical funeral, so whether that is allowed is kind of a moot point. Funerals are for the living, too, though. Catholic priests and deacons can be allowed to assist at the non-ecclesiatical internments of the relatives of Catholics. If you want to find a priest or deacon to help you with the internment ceremony, the diocese of Honolulu can undoubtedly help you find one.

You may want to ask your mom to fill you in on her wishes for the disposition of their remains, in case she has something to add to (or subtract from) your dad’s wishes. Then you can take both into account when the time comes.

This is a really good answer. Burial at sea off the coast of Hawaii would seem to respect their wishes, while also respecting the Church’s requirements. (It also seems like there may be some legal difficulties with simply scattering creamated remains on a local beach. That may be an issue to bring up if you discuss the idea of burial at sea with them in the future).

 

[EasterJoy]

Unless your parents are planning to have their remains cremated precisely in order to spit in the eye of the Catholic faith, the Church does allow you to have your parents’ remains cremated, when it is up to you.

PS As long as* you* are not having the remains cremated for an inappropriate reason and as long as your parents did not have inappropriate reasons that were so widely known as to cause a scandal–that is, as long as you are not in effect publicly backing up a stated desire to spit on the Catholic faith–you can still authorize the cremations. In other words, if your dad were to have said, “I don’t care what the Church thinks, when you’re dead, you’re just dead, forever, and that’s it” but did not choose cremation in order to publicize his reasoning, you’re OK.

 

[thistle]

I will try to make this short… I am an only child and Catholic convert, my father is agnostic, and my step-mother is a very fallen-away Catholic. My father informed me that when they pass away whoever goes first will hold onto the others’ ashes until he or she passes and then they would like for my husband and I to combined their ashes, fly to Hawaii and fling them on the beach. Romantic, right? So while I am not at all jazzed about all of this, it’s their funeral. Will honoring their wishes, when the time comes, cause me to commit a sin?

Thanks and God bless!
Michelle

The Church allows cremation but ashes may not be scattered nor held on to in an urn at home.
Ashes must be put in an appropriate container and interred.

 

[peary1]

I will try to make this short… I am an only child and Catholic convert, my father is agnostic, and my step-mother is a very fallen-away Catholic. My father informed me that when they pass away whoever goes first will hold onto the others’ ashes until he or she passes and then they would like for my husband and I to combined their ashes, fly to Hawaii and fling them on the beach. Romantic, right? So while I am not at all jazzed about all of this, it’s their funeral. Will honoring their wishes, when the time comes, cause me to commit a sin?

Thanks and God bless!
Michelle

I usually ignore the wishes of non-believers, and I would have to do what I think is personally right in such a controversy. If they wish you and your husband to fly to Hawaii and fling their ashes across the beach, then they should also set aside the money for your flight and your stay there in a separate account. And I’d tell them that right to their face.

Flinging human ashes and pieces of human bone across a beach doesn’t sound too hygenic to me. It may also be against the law. I would tell that to them too.

Not honoring their wishes isn’t considered a sin at all. I’d just bury the remains together once they both expire. In the meantime, try working on your step-mother to return to the Church. You might have some success there.

 

[EasterJoy]

I usually ignore the wishes of non-believers and I would have to do what I think is personally right in such a controversy…

Do non-believers give you that many opportunities to consider their wishes, after having been ignored a time or two?

If they wish you and your husband to fly to Hawaii and fling their ashes across the beach, then they should also set aside the money for your flight and your stay there in a separate account. And I’d tell them that right to their face.

This is a funeral expense, and not an particularly expensive one, as funerals go. You’d tell your parents to their face that if they don’t set aside the money, they’re not getting a funeral?

Flinging human ashes and pieces of human bone across a beach doesn’t sound too hygenic to me. It may also be against the law. I would tell that to them too.

Scattering remains without a permit might be against the law in Hawaii, I don’t know, but human remains that have been cooked at over 1700 degrees until they’ve been reduced down to carbon and inorganic salts are about as hygenic as anything on this lovely little blue planet ever gets.

Not honoring their wishes isn’t considered a sin at all. I’d just bury the remains together once they both expire. In the meantime, try working on your step-mother to return to the Church. You might have some success there.

Well, it might take a little dancing around the 4th Commandment, in this case, unless there was no moral and practical way to accomplish anything remotely like their wishes, which there is. I would think that telling one’s parents to their face that their final wishes are worth ignoring, based on their lack of beliefs, an unwanted expense, and without moral relevance would be a venial sin. One could try that OR one might work on returning one of them to the Church, but I’m wouldn’t try both simultaneously. Just a thought.

 

[EasterJoy]

The Church allows cremation but ashes may not be scattered nor held on to in an urn at home.
Ashes must be put in an appropriate container and interred.

Burial at sea is allowed, if done in an appropriate manner. Scattering is not allowed. Holding on to the urn in a secure place between the cremation and the interment is allowed for a certain amount of time. It is kind of like keeping a body in the morgue refrigerator or freezer, when the funeral needs to be delayed. It would be ideal if the surviving parent could be convinced to have his or her spouse’s cremated remains interred, even if temporarily, pending a joint burial at sea later, but there is a good chance that will not be acceptable to the surviving parent. Legally, they have total control over the decision.

 

[peary1]

Do non-believers give you that many opportunities to consider their wishes, after having been ignored a time or two?

Dunno. I don’t have non-believers in my family.

This is a funeral expense, and not an particularly expensive one, as funerals go. You’d tell your parents to their face that if they don’t set aside the money, they’re not getting a funeral?

If they expect us to travel to Hawaii just to fling their ashes on the beach, they should at least set aside money for that purpose; i.e., airfare and hotel accomodations. That doesn’t mean they won’t get a funeral. The other option is being buried in the nearest cemetery.

Scattering remains without a permit might be against the law in Hawaii, I don’t know, but human remains that have been cooked at over 1700 degrees until they’ve been reduced down to carbon and inorganic salts are about as hygenic as anything on this lovely little blue planet ever gets.

Obviously you haven’t been involved in cremation. Bones do not get reduced. They have to be pulverized. This pulverization does not totally disintegrate them. These are called cremated remains. There are pieces left over after the process that are placed in an urn together with the ashes. Some states have laws against spreading ashes in parks or on beaches.

Well, it might take a little dancing around the 4th Commandment, in this case, unless there was no moral and practical way to accomplish anything remotely like their wishes, which there is. I would think that telling one’s parents to their face that their final wishes are worth ignoring, based on their lack of beliefs, an unwanted expense, and without moral relevance would be a venial sin. One could try that OR one might work on returning one of them to the Church, but I’m wouldn’t try both simultaneously. Just a thought.

Oh, by the way, they wouldn’t be told. And it wouldn’t be a sin, as far as I am concerned.

 

[EasterJoy]

Dunno. I don’t have non-believers in my family.

If you have no non-believers in your family, what on earth did you mean by “I usually ignore the wishes of non-believers” that could apply in this case? Do you not see that there is the tiniest bit of incompatiblity between “I usually ignore the wishes of non-believers” and “try working on your step-mother to return to the Church”?

If they expect us to travel to Hawaii just to fling their ashes on the beach, they should at least set aside money for that purpose; i.e., airfare and hotel accomodations. That doesn’t mean they won’t get a funeral. The other option is being buried in the nearest cemetery.

I don’t know if you realize it, but “I would tell them that right to their face” implies a certain amount of defiance that the parents haven’t asked for here. The issue of money can be raised, yes, but I don’t see where it would help to make ultimatums.

Obviously you haven’t been involved in cremation. Bones do not get reduced. They have to be pulverized. This pulverization does not totally disintegrate them. These are called cremated remains. There are pieces left over after the process that are placed in an urn together with the ashes. Some states have laws against spreading ashes in parks or on beaches.

I pointed out up front that the law could prohibit scattering ashes. There are undoubtedly laws concerning burials at sea, for that matter. It is nothing I’d do without looking into the legal side, when the time came, as laws change.

I’ve also seen a cremation…as in, looked in the oven while it was happening. The bones have to be pulverized afterwards, true, but there isn’t anything remotely like a health threat left in what comes out of that oven. The figure of 1700 F degrees is not an exaggeration (it is on the low side for some ovens) and the process takes in the neighborhood of two hours. Depending on their bone structure, adults are reduced to about 3-9 lb of remains. There isn’t a viable virus, bacterium or so much as a prion left when it’s done.

Oh, by the way, they wouldn’t be told. And it wouldn’t be a sin, as far as I am concerned.

So you’ll tell them to their face that they’d better set up a separate account for you to go to Hawaii if they want their wishes honored, but you wouldn’t tell them to their face that you’re going to do whatever you please in the end, anyway? I realize that wishes cannot always be honored as we would like, but there is such a thing as deception by omission. If someone asks you to do something that important to them, and you say “yes, but only if you save up the money for it” or by your silence imply that you will do it, while fully intending to do no such thing, that is not honest. If you did it to me, I would feel lied to, and without a compelling reason that does not exist in this case, that is a sin.

I’m also not saying a child always has to comply with a parents’ last wishes, or that a child ever has to do something immoral in order to please a parent. I’m saying that the conversation has to be handled with as much respect as possible, that’s all. You don’t have to let yourself be pinned down, even, but you have to have a certain amount of honesty.

PS If you don’t have family members who are non-believers or former believers, you may not realize that handling these issues with sensitivity is very important if you want to have any hope of seeing this person darken the door of a Catholic church ever again. The welfare of your relationship with them and the fate of their eternal souls is a lot more important than the fate of their ashes, let alone some air fare and hotel charges.

 

[Chatter163]

So you’ll tell them to their face that they’d better set up a separate account for you to go to Hawaii if they want their wishes honored, but you wouldn’t tell them to their face that you’re going to do whatever you please in the end, anyway? I realize that wishes cannot always be honored as we would like, but there is such a thing as deception by omission. If someone asks you to do something that important to them, and you say “yes, but only if you save up the money for it” or by your silence imply that you will do it, while fully intending to do no such thing, that is not honest. If you did it to me, I would feel lied to, and without a compelling reason that does not exist in this case, that is a sin.

I’m also not saying a child always has to comply with a parents’ last wishes, or that a child ever has to do something immoral in order to please a parent. I’m saying that the conversation has to be handled with as much respect as possible, that’s all. You don’t have to let yourself be pinned down, even, but you have to have a certain amount of honesty.

PS If you don’t have family members who are non-believers or former believers, you may not realize that handling these issues with sensitivity is very important if you want to have any hope of seeing this person darken the door of a Catholic church ever again. The welfare of your relationship with them and the fate of their eternal souls is a lot more important than the fate of their ashes, let alone some air fare and hotel charges.

Agreed. The earlier poster’s various messages, whatever his or her intentions, came across as crass, contemptuous and disrespectful.:sad_yes:

 

[michellebuga]

Thank you all so much for your replies. This really helps! BTW, they are planning on covering our travel costs and wish to give us a vacation - in some way make it kind of a last gift from them. It’s good to know I have some room to negotiate and still honor their wishes charitably. Y’all are the best!

 

[that_name]

This is a funeral expense, and not an particularly expensive one, as funerals go. You’d tell your parents to their face that if they don’t set aside the money, they’re not getting a funeral?

Bare bones (no pun intended) cremation will cost the family around $1500.

The plane fare alone will be almost that amount