cremation

[Walcot]

Sure it is. You are agnostic correct? You seemingly mocked the idea of the holy relics of the saints.

I gave explanations…but they are not my explanations…they are the teaching of my Church…and I am obedient. If you do not accept it, then that is a matter of free will for you. I do not have much more to say. If you would like to read further on the subject, you can look at this:

orthodoxinfo.com/death/cremation.aspx

OK. Actually I was just pointing out that there are cases of pre-Christian ‘uncorrupted’ bodies that I didn’t think you’d call saints…it’s very interesting. Don’t forget tho’ that relics were big business in Medievil times. The bones of saints were separated and shared around several parishes and I’ve just read about the same happening when the bodies were dug up and found to be uncorrupted. This was in part for the benefit of the local population spiritually, but it also meant an important income for both church and town for it brought pilgrims and these were vital for some town’s economies. Of course where there’s money there are unscrupulous money makers and there were people who ‘made’ relics to order by mummifying and ageing new bodies or even animal parts. I believe they used to boil up the bodies of Crusaders so that their bones could be taken home, as they couldn’t transport complete bodies on long journeys across the continent. It sounds gruesome but life was more ‘red in tooth and claw’ then…they were less squeamish than us. It makes me think that people were not generally too concerned about what happened to their bodies after death…they must have believed that their soul was what mattered. Maybe some church fathers didn’t like what people did to bodies and thought they should be more ‘reverential?’ I don’t know. Anyway, it doesn’t sound as though they believed they needed their bodies any more. Our local Cathedral has a knuckle bone of it’s patron saint…the rest of him was scattered around the Catholic houses around the country to avoid his remains falling into the hands of the Protestants at the time of the reformation.

 

[Mickey]

Don’t forget tho’ that relics were big business in Medievil times.

I wouldn’t know about that.

 

[Walcot]

I wouldn’t know about that.

Mediaeval history is my favourite period of history. I learned a lot about relics and reliquaries when I went to the museum in Sienna where they had lots of relics in the most amazing reliquaries - most beautifully made boxes fashioned out of human hair and bones ( hair plaited into patterns and ropes and flowers) containing more bones…a bit gruesome for modern taste but most definitely for display. I just found that The 2nd council of Nicea in the 8th century ordered that every church alter should contain a relic…( the early church didn’t disturb the bodies of saints)… so that must be why they became SUCH big business and sometimes the unscrupulous (as usual) saw a way to make money. The more famous the relic, the more pilgrims they got.
Anyway, I find it interesting that this would seem to suggest they didn’t have a concept of ‘bodily resurrection’ at the end of time, in Mediaeval times?
(Of course relics aren’t exclusive to Christianity.)

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . . You wouldn’t suggest that the ancient mummified bodies found in peat bogs and/or maybe permafrost(?) are some kind of saints would you? . . .

Umm, no - neither Catholic nor Orthodox nor any Christian for that matter ever calls a cadaver a “saint”.

But, apparently agnostics do - because, here it is again:

OK. Actually I was just pointing out that there are cases of pre-Christian ‘uncorrupted’ bodies that I didn’t think you’d call saints…it’s very interesting. . .

Here is the answer again:

Umm, no - neither Catholic nor Orthodox nor any Christian for that matter ever calls a cadaver a “saint”.

• No links to substantiate these claims nor some of the other odiously odorious claims either. But even so , it almost seems as if this part would have us believe that it is perfectly fine to strew pieces of human bones wherever we wish - wouldn’t it ?

You can’t believe that people who are blown up or their bodies spread by wild animals won’t get an afterlife so why can’t people’s ashes be spread somewhere? Surely every part of God’s earth is as good as a little jar in a manmade wall or building??

BTW , in the unlikely event that it is serious answers this poster is seeking , someone should probably advise the poster to do their own homework.

I note that, no one on this thread is asserting “you won’t get an afterlife” if your “ashes be spread somewhere” to date . . . well, no one except the poster quoted above.

It would appear that presently, certain theological concepts might remain somewhat beyond grasp.

Do you think they might ever have something intelligible to say on matter being enabled by God to impart grace and miracles ? They probably don’t know it yet, but subtly, their critical commentary is converging on dissing sacraments and sacramentals.

Do you think they could even logically follow a next step and “understand with knowledge” how traditional icons although not even a biological relic of any saint are not intended to imitate the biological features of the saint but are a true window written to the underlying spiritual realities of that saint and of the Gospels and how God wills to impart grace and miracles by means of them as well - even though there is no biological connection to the saint whatsoever ? I suppose keeping with the skewed view presented, this would indiscriminately classify icons a big business too.

Do you think they might be able to wrap their mind around eschatological finality and be able to coherently differentiate between the Particular Judgement and the General Judgement . . . so that they finally come up with a congruous concept of the Resurrection ?

Probably the saddest thing to date is that this person genuinely appears to be without faith . What else could it be when we see the subject of Saint’s relics reduced to the stature of “a lucky rabbits’s foot” ?

Let’s pray for them.

 

[Mickey]

Mediaeval history is my favourite period of history.

:clapping:

 

[andrewstx]

To be honest I can’t afford ground burial and my insurance funds will only go a very little way.

When Father Patrick died it was done cheaply. He had a coffin that was made by monks, and his plot in an isolated country cemetery was free.

My family has all reposed, and I don’t have my own children.

If the church will not allow me to be cremated I will have to have my funeral in a Latin church, or Episcopal church where they have columbarium chapels.

 

[Walcot]

Umm, no - neither Catholic nor Orthodox nor any Christian for that matter ever calls a cadaver a “saint”.

But, apparently agnostics do - because, here it is again:

Here is the answer again:

Umm, no - neither Catholic nor Orthodox nor any Christian for that matter ever calls a cadaver a “saint”.

• No links to substantiate these claims nor some of the other odiously odorious claims either. But even so , it almost seems as if this part would have us believe that it is perfectly fine to strew pieces of human bones wherever we wish - wouldn’t it ?

BTW , in the unlikely event that it is serious answers this poster is seeking , someone should probably advise the poster to do their own homework.

I note that, no one on this thread is asserting “you won’t get an afterlife” if your “ashes be spread somewhere” to date . . . well, no one except the poster quoted above.

It would appear that presently, certain theological concepts might remain somewhat beyond grasp.

Do you think they might ever have something intelligible to say on matter being enabled by God to impart grace and miracles ? They probably don’t know it yet, but subtly, their critical commentary is converging on dissing sacraments and sacramentals.

Do you think they could even logically follow a next step and “understand with knowledge” how traditional icons although not even a biological relic of any saint are not intended to imitate the biological features of the saint but are a true window written to the underlying spiritual realities of that saint and of the Gospels and how God wills to impart grace and miracles by means of them as well - even though there is no biological connection to the saint whatsoever ? I suppose keeping with the skewed view presented, this would indiscriminately classify icons a big business too.

Do you think they might be able to wrap their mind around eschatological finality and be able to coherently differentiate between the Particular Judgement and the General Judgement . . . so that they finally come up with a congruous concept of the Resurrection ?

Probably the saddest thing to date is that this person genuinely appears to be without faith . What else could it be when we see the subject of Saint’s relics reduced to the stature of “a lucky rabbits’s foot” ?

Let’s pray for them.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/LauraSeabrook/Avatars/Smileys/sad.gif

Well, I obviously offended you so that you won’t even address me, so I’m not sure if the ‘they’ means me, or all non - Catholics. So, I’m sorry for that- genuinely. Wasn’t my intention to offend, I’m just saying it like it is - historically that is. The fact of the matter is that relics WERE big business in the middle ages, bodies were divided and sent around the country/world and therefore there had to be people who ‘dealt in relics’ - it was a practicality. My genuine query was to do with why ashes couldn’t be scattered as bodies were not always kept undisturbed in a grave. Was/is there a general belief that we would need our body for resurrection? (My own aunt believed that.)
My point about the uncorruption was that I thought you might believe that the very uncorruption was a proof of saintliness - I’m sure I’ve heard that. I was pointing out that it happens to non - Christians.
My queries are genuine.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Well, I obviously offended you so that you won’t even address me, so I’m not sure if the ‘they’ means me, or all non - Catholics. So, I’m sorry for that- genuinely. Wasn’t my intention to offend, I’m just saying it like it is - historically that is. The fact of the matter is that relics WERE big business in the middle ages, bodies were divided and sent around the country/world and therefore there had to be people who ‘dealt in relics’ - it was a practicality. My genuine query was to do with why ashes couldn’t be scattered as bodies were not always kept undisturbed in a grave. Was/is there a general belief that we would need our body for resurrection? (My own aunt believed that.)
My point about the uncorruption was that I thought you might believe that the very uncorruption was a proof of saintliness - I’m sure I’ve heard that. I was pointing out that it happens to non - Christians.
My queries are genuine.

You do offend our faith a little in previous posts - as others have already remarked , but perhaps it isn’t fully intentional. However, that isn’t the reason why I don’t always address posters directly - it’s actually based more on a effort to try to keep it from getting too personal, or on keeping a distance until it can be established that someone is serious (doesn’t always work though). I’m hoping you can appreciate that just as the mainstream media never shuts up in their incessant criticism and whining about Catholicicsm, we aren’t even close to being immune to that sort of thing here. As for me personally , I suspect I might be a little less grumpy now that we have a new Pope )).

Thanks for clarifying.

As to why ashes can’t be scattered , how about beginning with what civil and private authorities (don’t) have to say on the matter. Let’s begin there. As mentioned previously, I can’t say I enjoy doing anyone’s homework for them, but tell me how you perceive/interpret it. Here’s a link that gives a general idea :

harmonycasket.com/scattering

Here’s another more pertinent to the USA cremationsolutions.com/Scattering-Ashes-Laws-Regulations-c108.html

You still don’t seem to be specific in “how” relics were big business (please supply some links to substantiiate the assertion) . From earlier posts, it appears that you believe relics coming to a town somehow generates business. The truth is more along the lines that it generates prayer.

Pilgrims do need to be fed and housed though - that’s a simple fact of life. Not too long ago the relics of St. Thérèse de Lisieux traveled all around the world after she’d been declared a Doctor of the Church in the late 1990’s. It was a way for individuals to feel closer to her and subsequently God in prayer. I went to visit the relics here at St. Joseph’s Oratory - didn’t have to pay a cent for admission or anything. Also, it is prohibited to sell any item once it has been blessed. So once we have bought our rosaries, religious medals, statues and the like , we have them blessed afterwards.

That being said, you won’t have any trouble finding comments from among the faithful - even those who have visited such reputed sites as Fatima which express a particular despondency at what they view as too much commercialism. Money mongers are another fact of life - wherever something is sensational or can be sensationalized, or wherever there is a buck to be made (or a quid to be had) they aren’t going to be far behind.

Regarding canonization, the process is more complicated and not really how you perceive it. In earlier times , ecclesiatiscal honour could be granted to martyrs or confessors by bishops or patriarchs,but only for a local territory . Still, this was always based on the soul-

The Catholic Church canonizes or beatifies only those whose lives have been marked by the exercise of heroic virtue, and only after this has been proved by common repute for sanctity and by conclusive arguments
newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

In these (earlier) cases also , abuses sporadically crept in .

Your aunt wouldn’t be the only believer to hold on to an incorrect or incomplete notion concerning the Resurrection. You’ll find most of the information on the basics on this page of the CCC. If you read from 1021 to 1041 , that will provide most of it.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm

Take a look at 1042 & 1043 as well. We see that the mysterious renewal could easily be misinterpreted by “Jehova’s Witnesses” (and Christians too).

After you’ve taken whatever time required to read up and if you feel like posting a response, I think I might be able to help it make more sense to you then.

Again thanks for clarifying.

 

[Walcot]

You still don’t seem to be specific in “how” relics were big business (please supply some links to substantiiate the assertion) . From earlier posts, it appears that you believe relics coming to a town somehow generates business. The truth is more along the lines that it generates prayer.

 

[Walcot]

NeedImprovement;10483662:

You still don’t seem to be specific in “how” relics were big business (please supply some links to substantiiate the assertion) . From earlier posts, it appears that you believe relics coming to a town somehow generates business. The truth is more along the lines that it generates prayer.

Sorry, due to my lousy computer skills and some interruptions, my answer got lost in the system!
I want to thank you for your answer…on the relic business of the middle ages:
amazon.com/Holy-Bones-Dust-History-Medieval/dp/0300184301

I’m reading your links…

 

[Mickey]

If the church will not allow me to be cremated I will have to have my funeral in a Latin church, or Episcopal church where they have columbarium chapels.

The Orthodox Church will not give you a Funeral Liturgy if you are cremated. The priest can only say the Trisagion prayers.

orthodoxinfo.com/death/cremation.aspx

 

[Melissa]

.
Imagine the complications that would’ve arisen if they had cremated our Blessed Lord’s body after taking Him down from the Cross.uch:

On the other hand, the same God who created everything out of nothing except with a Word, and a little thing like resurrecting a glorified body out of ashes is going to be an obstacle?

 

[Mickey]

On the other hand, the same God who created everything out of nothing except with a Word, and a little thing like resurrecting a glorified body out of ashes is going to be an obstacle?

And yet Christ…and the saints…were not cremated.

 

[andrewstx]

The Orthodox Church will not give you a Funeral Liturgy if you are cremated. The priest can only say the Trisagion prayers.

orthodoxinfo.com/death/cremation.aspx

What would you suggest then being aware of my lack of funds? All cemetaries in this area are exspensive for profit enterprises, there are no public municipal cemetaries.

I am sure that there are some larger parishes who can help with the funding, but I go to a small mission parish that cannot even afford it’s own temple.

I am getting a bit concerned because my health is bad and I have already had a stroke.

I do not want to defy the church, but the financial relalities have me in a quandary.

 

[Mickey]

What would you suggest then being aware of my lack of funds? All cemetaries in this area are exspensive for profit enterprises, there are no public municipal cemetaries.

I am sure that there are some larger parishes who can help with the funding, but I go to a small mission parish that cannot even afford it’s own temple.

I am getting a bit concerned because my health is bad and I have already had a stroke.

I do not want to defy the church, but the financial relalities have me in a quandary.

I would suggest that you speak with your spiritual father.

 

[Walcot]

And yet Christ…and the saints…were not cremated.

It wasn’t a Jewish or early Christian tradition. It would never have even been considered for Jesus!

 

[Mickey]

It wasn’t a Jewish or early Christian tradition. It would never have even been considered for Jesus!

 

[Walcot]

NeedImprovement;10483662:

You still don’t seem to be specific in “how” relics were big business (please supply some links to substantiiate the assertion) . From earlier posts, it appears that you believe relics coming to a town somehow generates business. The truth is more along the lines that it generates prayer.

I’ve asked my historian friend to give me the names of some books on the subject of the medieval relic trade. I cannot remember the books I’ve read in the past! As I said, I wrote you a better answer yesterday but it got gobbled up in the system.
Today we spent exploring old churches and saw the most beautiful Medieval stained glass. It’s a fascinating period of church history!

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . . As I said, I wrote you a better answer yesterday but it got gobbled up in the system. . .

Don’t be too quick to blame your computer skills on that one: I’ve lost more than several things I’ve attempted to post myself after logging in. The problem seems to be persistent (but not exclusively) when I don’t check the “remember me” box when logging in Still, I like to be stubborn at times and don’t always remember to copy (temporarily backup) what I’m about to post. Sometimes it appears to happen even when that box is checked. At any rate, - definitely not a happy camper when I do end up Iosing something I’d been working on for several hours just as I’m about to post it.

 

[NeedImprovement]

NeedImprovement:

Imagine the complications that would’ve arisen if they had cremated our Blessed Lord’s body after taking Him down from the Cross. :doh2:

Melissa:

On the other hand, the same God who created everything out of nothing except with a Word, and a little thing like resurrecting a glorified body out of ashes is going to be an obstacle?

“Complications” is what I wrote. And I neither said nor implied “for God” – but rather for frail humans ; and this, in cremation. You incompletely infer only resurrection. Obviously , by Jesus’ own words

“With God, all things are possible” , and, “I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham”

, to resurrect a glorified body out of ashes isn’t going to be a problem.

Lets back up a bit – to the theoretical burning of Christ’s Body – which had just been scourged, crowned with thorns, profaned by the soldiers and finally crucified : Don’t you think it would be a sacrilege to burn Something as Holy as that ? I also think it would have been a grave insult to the Holy Spirit and to our Blessed Mother at the same time.

When Christ’s Holy, crucified Body was laid in the tomb , His sacred wounds in his hands and feet were still (for lack of a better human word) intact. The pierced side where Longinus thrust his lance in – that wound from which flowed forth Blood and water – that wound, about which volumes have been written, was also still intact when Christ was laid in the tomb. Burn His body , and you belittle all that he has just gone through and offered on our behalf. In destroying the body , one destroys the physical wounds to the body as well. It isn’t that different from denying what just happened. Instead of his (from all human perception-) original pierced Sacred Heart , the believer is required to picture that Heart being burned to ashes first. BTW, have fun trying to explain to St. Thomas the disciple after your body was reduced to ashes that those are still your original woulds. . . another complication due to human frailty.

Anyone who rushes through visualization of Christ’s body being burned and goes directly the next step of raising a new body out of ashes is probably missing more than one important theological point. Some of the points St. Thomas Aquinas deals with are commonly hinged on the Suppositum of Christ not being the same as your or my suppositum :

Excerpts taken from the SUMMA , III, 50;2-5 (highlights mine)

But it is due to the soul that the flesh is human even after the soul has been separated from it–namely, inasmuch as by God’s ordinance there remains in the dead flesh a certain relation to the resurrection. **And therefore the union of the Godhead with the flesh is not taken away. **

. . . The soul formally possesses the life-giving energy, and therefore, while it is present, and united formally, the body must necessarily be a living one, whereas the Godhead has not the life-giving energy formally, but effectively; because It cannot be the form of the body: and therefore** it is not necessary for the flesh to be living while the union of the Godhead with the flesh remains, since God does not act of necessity, but of His own will**

The dead body of everyone else does not continue united to an abiding hypostasis, as Christ’s dead body did; consequently the dead body of everyone else is not the same “simply,” but only in some respect: because it is the same as to its matter, but not the same as to its form. But Christ’s body remains the same simply, on account of the identity of the suppositum, as stated above.

. . . But the hypostasis of the Word of God subsists in two natures; and consequently, although in others the body does not remain the same according to the species of human nature, still it continues identically the same in Christ according to the suppositum of the Word of God.

** Corruption and death do not belong to Christ by reason of the suppositum**, from which suppositum follows the unity of identity; but by reason of the human nature, according to which is found the difference of death and of life in Christ’s body.

Christ’s Resurrection of His own body is the promise of our own resurrection. Reducing his crucified Body to ashes complicates our comprehension of His Resurrection. The Assumption of our Blessed Mother – body and soul into Heaven , flows from the Resurrection of Our Blessed Lord . Since in St. Alphonsus Liguori’s words , “God wanted Mary to be like Christ in every way”, wouldn’t She have had to be cremated too ? How could we say in this case that She was assumed body and soul into Heaven, at the end of her earthly life, if Her ever -virgin body that was assumed – the same body which conceived by the Holy Spirit and bore our Saviour– with that same Immaculate Heart (which experienced unspeakable sorrow here on earth) was burned to ashes ?

. . . no Shroud of Turin either (and how would they have gathered our Blessed Lord’s ashes after cremation back then? ) . . . another complication it would seem - Christ “rises” a different way

We would probably have changes in Sacred Scripture too since the Church applies Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:25-32; 13:35-37 to Christ’s resurrection,

“Nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.”

The Jewish belief held at the time of the Crucifixion was that a human body began to decay or to become corrupt 3 days after death. Rising with one’s dead body on the third day has all the significance in the world. Cremation is not natural. It is, in a sense, immediate corruption.

*Complications. . . complications *(and there are lots more)