Cringe when asked how may kids you want

[Iheartcoffee]

I know that sometimes even well meaning Catholics who are open to life unintentionally say inappropriate things. . .such as “Youv’e been married for quite a while, don’t you want kids?” Maybe the couple is having fertility issues. “Aren’t you going to have more than two kids?” Still some fertility issues. “Too bad you have three (all boys or all girls)”. God blesses us with children it’s good to accept what we have been graced with. “Now that you have your girl(or boy) after having three boys(or girls), that must be it.” Some would think so, if they aren’t hoping for God’s Will to be done. Or “We have five and you only have four, you need to catch up.” Perhaps a miscarriage has occurred or an infertile time. “There’s kind of a big space between the kids, last one must have been an accident.” God doesn’t make mistakes!
This is a combination of what I’ve experienced myself and what friends/family have experienced.

My husband and I have a friend that asks when we are going to have kids. It’s so hurtful. The friend doesn’t realize how hurtful it is to keep asking, or how much I would love to be a mother and how much I wish I had the kids that friend has. We use NFP and we have a good reason for it and our reasons are none of anyone else’s business. Unfortunately, people like to try to make it their business.

 

[Moore11]

What if the answer to the question is 12, would it still be “scandalous” to have that number in mind?

I think the person asking the question is the one being talked about here.
Why does there need to be any number at all?

 

[Debora123]

I think the person asking the question is the one being talked about here.
Why does there need to be any number at all?

Well the OP was also being critical of the people who DO have a number in mind. So I was just asking… what if that number was 12. Would it still be inappropriate for someone to have “12” as an answer to the question “How many kids to you want?”

If not, then is this simply a matter of not agreeing with the number given as an answer?

 

[HoosMommie]

My husband and I have a friend that asks when we are going to have kids. It’s so hurtful. The friend doesn’t realize how hurtful it is to keep asking, or how much I would love to be a mother and how much I wish I had the kids that friend has. We use NFP and we have a good reason for it and our reasons are none of anyone else’s business. Unfortunately, people like to try to make it their business.

I think it’s totally appropriate for you to tell them just how hurtful such a question is to you. And you DO NOT have to explain anything to anyone.

 

[boymama]

I always say “I’d like 6, but God has seen fit to give us 2.”

It passive aggressively points out it is a painful question, because not every Catholic can have a large family.

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[Moore11]

Well the OP was also being critical of the people who DO have a number in mind. So I was just asking… what if that number was 12. Would it still be inappropriate for someone to have “12” as an answer to the question “How many kids to you want?”

If not, then is this simply a matter of not agreeing with the number given as an answer?

Oh I see you were talking about the second part of that question.
Yes, to me 12 would still be a scandalous number as it is asserting your wants not God’s. I always say. " I love my family and would love anything else that God brings in the future. 5, 9 12 or 20 I dont care nor do I concern myself with the ego of “how many kids one has.”

That being said. There are too many Catholic couples who do not discern God’s will in one of the most important aspects of their lives and marriages.

 

[Debora123]

Oh I see you were talking about the second part of that question.
Yes, to me 12 would still be a scandalous number as it is asserting your wants not God’s. I always say. " I love my family and would love anything else that God brings in the future. 5, 9 12 or 20 I dont care nor do I concern myself with the ego of “how many kids one has.”

That being said. There are too many Catholic couples who do not discern God’s will in one of the most important aspects of their lives and marriages.

 

[sainthumbert]

What if the answer to the question is 12, would it still be “scandalous” to have that number in mind?

I didn’t ask about the answer to the question but I can see how you might have thought that. I did ask about a person who goes around, without being asked, that he/she wants X number of kids.

Now using your number of 12 the person would state, “I want 12 kids.” Before we look at that statement, let’s look first at the scenario if the person wanted 2 kids. “I want 2 kids.” There is absolutely nothing wrong with this statement when interpreted literally. However, nobody in this country in this time period would interpret that literally and not read more into it (it is a loaded comment, so to speak). The impression that other people would get is that that person wants 2 kids AND NO MORE THAN 2. The next impression that other people would get is that the the person making the comment thinks that it is within his/her power to limit the number of kids to 2. And of course it is not within his/her power to licitly limit the number of children to 2 (assuming regular relations) based on a want (notice I said based on a “want” not based on a “serious etc” reason).

Now going back to the number of 12. I think the people hearing the statement, “I want 12 kids” are not going to get the impression that the person thinks he/she has power over limiting the number he/she has. I could be wrong of course because I am only citing my opinion of what other people’s impressions might be. This is of course speculative.

I am not calling this out as sinning by any means. In fact, I have made the statement before as well. I just recently started to think about it and had the idea that that these questions/comments could be stated more clearly to do justice to Catholic teaching.

I was recently having some beers with a newly minted Catholic who, along with his wife, put away the contraceptives. He asked me how many kids I want. Instead of giving him a number, I reiterated the purpose of marriage and the criteria upon which one could licitly use NFP. I think he appreciated the answer seeing that he was just starting his journey as a contraceptive free Catholic.

 

[thewanderer]

Oh I see you were talking about the second part of that question.
Yes, to me 12 would still be a scandalous number as it is asserting your wants not God’s. I always say. " I love my family and would love anything else that God brings in the future. 5, 9 12 or 20 I dont care nor do I concern myself with the ego of “how many kids one has.”

That being said. There are too many Catholic couples who do not discern God’s will in one of the most important aspects of their lives and marriages.

I’ve got to say though, I still really don’t understand why it is so terrible to have a preference, so long as you realize that often what you think you want isn’t whats best for you. I know that I currently think that I want a famly of about 5 kids. However, I also am fully aware that I might not be able to have that many, and, that it might turn out that I am fully capable of having more than five and still being a good parent for them and so end up with 8 or even 10 or, who knows how many. I realize I must be open to God’s will about this all and take it one day at a time, however, that doesn’t change the fact that I currently have a preference, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just as there is nothing wrong with a parent hoping for a boy or a girl so long as they are more than willing to accept whichever comes their way. The problem isn’t having a preference, the problem is insisting that your preference occur over and above God’s plan for your life.

 

[Moore11]

I’ve got to say though, I still really don’t understand why it is so terrible to have a preference, so long as you realize that often what you think you want isn’t whats best for you. I know that I currently think that I want a famly of about 5 kids. However, I also am fully aware that I might not be able to have that many, and, that it might turn out that I am fully capable of having more than five and still being a good parent for them and so end up with 8 or even 10 or, who knows how many. I realize I must be open to God’s will about this all and take it one day at a time, however, that doesn’t change the fact that I currently have a preference, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just as there is nothing wrong with a parent hoping for a boy or a girl so long as they are more than willing to accept whichever comes their way. The problem isn’t having a preference, the problem is insisting that your preference occur over and above God’s plan for your life.

My point is why have a number at all? A preference indicates that it is what YOU want. How is that a Holy way of looking at these things. If say your number was 12. And your children or spouse knew that. and you had 11. Would those 11 be less than you wanted? Would lucky number 13 be the bane of your existence because it isn’t 12. I hope I have a complete healthy, loving family that produces saints. I have 4 now. If we have another or 10 more I have no preference. We are obedient Catholics in tune with God’s will for our family. There is no number on obedience.

 

[Rence]

Does anyone else cringe when a Catholic asks you how many kids you want? Or when a Catholic says we want X number of kids? Isn’t this in a way sort of a scandalous question or comment?

No, I don’t stress about it at all. I just reply that I will marry after menopause.

 

[Kelfa28]

I say I would love “4”

But that is because it would arrange perfectly in our house with the bedrooms. But I always follow with “But whatever God’s plan for us is…we’ll be quite happy!”

I really don’t know what my family’s reaction will be when and if we go beyond two. No one in my family has done that in quite some time. I only have one first cousin.

I do think it’s inappropriate to ask any questions on number of kids you want to have.

 

[thewanderer]

My point is why have a number at all? A preference indicates that it is what YOU want. How is that a Holy way of looking at these things. If say your number was 12. And your children or spouse knew that. and you had 11. Would those 11 be less than you wanted? Would lucky number 13 be the bane of your existence because it isn’t 12. I hope I have a complete healthy, loving family that produces saints. I have 4 now. If we have another or 10 more I have no preference. We are obedient Catholics in tune with God’s will for our family. There is no number on obedience.

yeah, but my point is that, being human, its likely that we will have a preference, so whats wrong with admitting that? Just like when some kids are young all they think about is finding their prince or getting married. That is the preference they experience at that time. Should we tell people everytime they express a preference about anything “Sorry, as a Catholic you shouldn’t be saying what you want, you should only be thinking about what God wants for you” Admitting that you have a preference does not negate being open to following God’s will. They **are **compatible. whats wrong with admitting that, as a human, you have a preference if its true that you do? As I said, the problem isn’t having a preference (thats just a natural human reaction) the problem is putting your perssonal human preference before God’s will.

 

[Moore11]

yeah, but my point is that, being human, its likely that we will have a preference, so whats wrong with admitting that? Just like when some kids are young all they think about is finding their prince or getting married. That is the preference they experience at that time. Should we tell people everytime they express a preference about anything “Sorry, as a Catholic you shouldn’t be saying what you want, you should only be thinking about what God wants for you” Admitting that you have a preference does not negate being open to following God’s will. They **are **compatible. whats wrong with admitting that, as a human, you have a preference if its true that you do? As I said, the problem isn’t having a preference (thats just a natural human reaction) the problem is putting your perssonal human preference before God’s will.

I still find it odd to put a number on creation of souls.

Look at it this way because many people do. What if people asked how many of a certain gender you wanted. What if someone said. I hope we have no girls. Lots of boys but no girls. Or, "well 4 kids are good 3 if one of them has down syndrome.
Your argument is that human nature dictates that you put a number on God’s blessings for your family. It might be human nature, but it is also because of ignorance of what you are really saying. People say to my family all the time. “Oh, you finally got your boy!” Or 4th time is a charm eh dad. wink wink. They say this in front of my daughters. My seven year old (who gets her mouth from her dad) butts right in and says, “are you saying you don’t like girls?”

Honestly why in the world would you have a preference. Why would you vocalize a preference publicly where your children could learn that they are insufficient for your dreams or too much for your dreams.
Ultimately having a number is selfish but it also gives in to the lie that the modern world feeds us and really leads to birth control mentality and the misnomer of modern “family planning” which really means taking God’s will out and replacing it with my own.

You dont have to agree but it really should make you think when someone asks you how many kids you want or you somehow arbitrarily put a number on happiness and completeness of a family what the real statement is. And that is: selfishness.

 

[Debora123]

yeah, but my point is that, being human, its likely that we will have a preference, so whats wrong with admitting that? Just like when some kids are young all they think about is finding their prince or getting married. That is the preference they experience at that time. Should we tell people everytime they express a preference about anything “Sorry, as a Catholic you shouldn’t be saying what you want, you should only be thinking about what God wants for you” Admitting that you have a preference does not negate being open to following God’s will. They **are **compatible. whats wrong with admitting that, as a human, you have a preference if its true that you do? As I said, the problem isn’t having a preference (thats just a natural human reaction) the problem is putting your perssonal human preference before God’s will.

 

[thewanderer]

I still find it odd to put a number on creation of souls.

Look at it this way because many people do. What if people asked how many of a certain gender you wanted. What if someone said. I hope we have no girls. Lots of boys but no girls. Or, "well 4 kids are good 3 if one of them has down syndrome.
Your argument is that human nature dictates that you put a number on God’s blessings for your family. It might be human nature, but it is also because of ignorance of what you are really saying. People say to my family all the time. “Oh, you finally got your boy!” Or 4th time is a charm eh dad. wink wink. They say this in front of my daughters. My seven year old (who gets her mouth from her dad) butts right in and says, “are you saying you don’t like girls?”

Honestly why in the world would you have a preference. Why would you vocalize a preference publicly where your children could learn that they are insufficient for your dreams or too much for your dreams.
Ultimately having a number is selfish but it also gives in to the lie that the modern world feeds us and really leads to birth control mentality and the misnomer of modern “family planning” which really means taking God’s will out and replacing it with my own.

You dont have to agree but it really should make you think when someone asks you how many kids you want or you somehow arbitrarily put a number on happiness and completeness of a family what the real statement is. And that is: selfishness.

I have to ask, if someone came up to you and said they hoped to be a scientist one day, would you also object to them having a personal preference? After all, we are supposed to follow God’s will, and if we have a personal preference we must obviously be rejecting God’s will and God’s preference for our lives.

Do you see that at least thats what what you are saying sounds like? It sounds as though you are saying that having any sort of personal preference automatically means that we are putting our own preference before God’s will for us. If you don’t mean this generally, then why do you believe its always true with respect to the number of children a person would prefer to have? Like I said, personally I would prefer to have around 5 kids. I love big families, but I just don’t really see how I could handle more than 5 or 6 kids. So while I currently feel as though I would prefer to have around 5 kids I am open to both the possibility that I have more or less. If I can’t have that many, then I will just have to accept it as God’s will. If it turns out that I can handle more then I would love to have more and totally be open to having more. How is the fact that I have a preference being selfish or feeding into the modern lie that family planning is about having control over exactly what your family is like? I really don’t see it. Yes, I totally get that some people who have a preference are being selfish and do view their number as something that they must have control over, but that just plain isn’t true of all people that have some sort of preference and it is honestly somewhat offensive to claim otherwise.

 

[Moore11]

I have to ask, if someone came up to you and said they hoped to be a scientist one day, would you also object to them having a personal preference? After all, we are supposed to follow God’s will, and if we have a personal preference we must obviously be rejecting God’s will and God’s preference for our lives.

Do you see that at least thats what what you are saying sounds like? It sounds as though you are saying that having any sort of personal preference automatically means that we are putting our own preference before God’s will for us. If you don’t mean this generally, then why do you believe its always true with respect to the number of children a person would prefer to have? Like I said, personally I would prefer to have around 5 kids. I love big families, but I just don’t really see how I could handle more than 5 or 6 kids. So while I currently feel as though I would prefer to have around 5 kids I am open to both the possibility that I have more or less. If I can’t have that many, then I will just have to accept it as God’s will. If it turns out that I can handle more then I would love to have more and totally be open to having more. How is the fact that I have a preference being selfish or feeding into the modern lie that family planning is about having control over exactly what your family is like? I really don’t see it. Yes, I totally get that some people who have a preference are being selfish and do view their number as something that they must have control over, but that just plain isn’t true of all people that have some sort of preference and it is honestly somewhat offensive to claim otherwise.

I think we are probably on the same thought train but just are tweaked a little.
Objectivaly I do not think that a number on kids is comparable to other things like “scientist” In general I see your point but our societies view on children and family has become so perverted that it never is just a simple question or statement. I think it is a wonderful winess to life and family and holiness to be able to rise above the secular meanings of these types of questions.

Say your parents had 3 kids and you were the 3rd. And your mom often said well, we would have prefered 2 kids but that pesky will of God got in the way and we had to reconcile our wants with His and we ended up having another…
It is not the same as “I think my vocation is a scientist.”

Seriously, why can’t you just get hip to the idea of approaching this as a witness instead of a blind creature who succumbs to human nature.

A specific number of children is not part of discernment.
What if you stopped giving into that way of thinking or at least made an effort.

 

[Debora123]

Say your parents had 3 kids and you were the 3rd. And your mom often said well, we would have prefered 2 kids but that pesky will of God got in the way and we had to reconcile our wants with His and we ended up having another…

Don’t you think you’re being a little too extreme?

Wanderer has basically already addressed the above when she said this:

I know that I currently think that I want a famly of about 5 kids. However,** I also am fully aware that I might not be able to have that many, and, that it might turn out that I am fully capable of having more than five and still being a good parent for them and so end up with 8 or even 10** or, who knows how many. I realize I must be open to God’s will about this all and take it one day at a time, however, that doesn’t change the fact that I currently have a preference, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just as there is nothing wrong with a parent hoping for a boy or a girl **so long as they are more than willing to accept whichever comes their way. **

As she said, just because someone may have a preference, doesn’t mean they’re going to reject whatever it is God brings their way.

I have never heard anyone who originally wanted 2 kids but had more say anything like “yeah, I wanted 2 kids but ended up with three… dang it.”

 

[thewanderer]

I think we are probably on the same thought train but just are tweaked a little.
Objectivaly I do not think that a number on kids is comparable to other things like “scientist” In general I see your point but our societies view on children and family has become so perverted that it **never **is just a simple question or statement. I think it is a wonderful winess to life and family and holiness to be able to rise above the secular meanings of these types of questions.

See, this kind of thinking is exactly what I object to. It amounts to you prematurely judging people because you have already made too broad of a generalization about this particular matter.

Say your parents had 3 kids and you were the 3rd. And your mom often said well, we would have prefered 2 kids but that pesky will of God got in the way and we had to reconcile our wants with His and we ended up having another…
It is not the same as “I think my vocation is a scientist.”

Well if she resented having me then, yeah, that would be hurtful. But what about someone who absolutely wants whatever God wants for them, and would joyfully accept whatever number of children they had, even if it wasn’t their current preference. thats the way I am. I absolutely know that I will be happy with however many children I have, that doesn’t change the fact that I also happen to have a preference. And having a preference does not make me selfish or someone who rejects God’s will. It is wrong of you to make the assumption that the fact that I have apreference about this means that I am selfish and that I am putting my own personal preference before God’s will because that just isn’t the case.

ETA: and, no, if my mother admitted to having at one point had a preference for two kids, but then changed her mind or even if I was a surprise that she joyfully embraced and loved and was grateful for, then I would have no problems with that whatsoever. Who cares about what she used to think she wanted, all that matters is that she has now discovered about what she truly wants, that she truly wants me and is happy that I am there. The fact that at one time she used to have a different preference would not bother me in the least.

Seriously, why can’t you just get hip to the idea of approaching this as a witness instead of a blind creature who succumbs to human nature.

If you think that is what I am doing then you have seriously misunderstood me. Please be willing to consider that you do not yet understand what I believe about this since this statement makes it very clear that you do not.

A specific number of children is not part of discernment.
What if you stopped giving into that way of thinking or at least made an effort.

Where did I ever say I have decided concretely to have 5 kids? Nowhere. You are making assumptions about my attitude and opinions on this just because I have admitted to having a preference. This is precisely why I objected to your overgeneralized statement in the first place, it leads to premature judgement of others because of making unwarrented assumptions about them.

 

[Moore11]

Don’t you think you’re being a little too extreme?

Wanderer has basically already addressed the above when she said this:

As she said, just because someone may have a preference, doesn’t mean they’re going to reject whatever it is God brings their way.

I have never heard anyone who originally wanted 2 kids but had more say anything like “yeah, I wanted 2 kids but ended up with three… dang it.”

I am not too extreme. I think there is value in making an effort to have our vocabulary and interactions with people be times of evangelization and I am also a fan of having a healthy attitude to holiness. Meanwhile I fully understand that we cannot and do not always focus on God like we should.
Actually I think the extreme view would be the one that says “I don’t want to think about becoming better or more God centered i just want to wallow in secular language and I am not interested in making an effort to become more God centered in my language and views.”

While I can certainly see different sides of this. What if wanderer said in Pope Francis like humility. "You know, this conversation has made me think about this issue and what we are REALLY saying when we put a number on children in our family. Even though I meant it innocently.

Like I said. Because of the fallen nature of our culture this issue is different from others.

As you can see from the previous posts.
People can be hurt or offended by this.
Some people are hurt if you dont think they have enough kids.
Some are hurt because they cant have more.
Some are hurt because people think they have too many kids.
Some are hurt when they are judged for not having any kids.
Some are hurt for many many reasons.

For these reasons alone it should be in the category of asking a woman how much she weighs.

What if we just celebrated and supported families of all sizes.