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Xantippe
Guest
I’m pretty sure (thanks to the existence of my middle child) that it is 7 days.
Crisis of faith over NFP and issues surrounding pregnancy and childbirth
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Xantippe
Guest
Here’s the UCSSB’s website main page.
usccb.org/
It’s got a lot of fine print on it, and I’m not seeing the words “contraception,” “birth control,” or “NFP” anywhere on it. I’m seeing “migrant families,” “U.S. policy toward Cuba,” “family detention center,” “daily readings in Spanish,” “anti-trafficking programs,” “child and youth protection,” “cultural diversity,” etc., etc.
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sailor28
Guest
Xantippe,
I believe we come from 2 different vantage points. I’ve spent most of my adult life in a parish that considers itself the “remnant” of the Church. The smaller, but purer church Pope Benedict talked about. The only one that speaks the Truth. Truth that focuses centrally on abortion, homosexuality and contraception. Contraception being the main talking point but not that far behind from the 2. Teachings like Matthew 7 1-5 and the Beatitudes are not elevated in this world. Nor are the things you mentioned above. Steubenville is the only Catholic college and whatever the Magisterium says is God, whether fallible or infallible. (Except Pope Francis who challenges their view too much)
Despite 80% of the church disagreeing with this teaching, whether they are well informed or not, the Catholic blogging world is made up of almost solely those who agree with the church and make sure everyone knows it. So it appears to me that there is a large Catholic voice out there embracing the centrality of this teaching.
Pope Francis said this, “We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”
From your point of view this teaching is not preached about enough from the pulpit. Perhaps you feel a lack of support for your choice to follow it. Perhaps you think if it was preached about more then those who disagree would embrace it. That is ok. I understand we see things differently. I’m not saying my view is the absolute truth. It has been my experience in the church and we are in a very big church.
I know this is long and I am not interested in a long back and forth on New Year’s. God Bless your 2015.
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Xantippe
Guest
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Vico
Guest
It is known that mankind falls into grave sin (a loss of charity) through first allowing venial sin (an offense to and wound of charity).
We loose when sexual pleasure and wealth are more important than of our imitation of Christ.
The vocation of man and woman is subduing the Earth and chastity (taking three forms – virgins, spouses, widows). Catechism shows this:372 … By transmitting human life to their descendants, man and woman as spouses and parents co-operate in a unique way in the Creator’s work.[247]
**373 **In God’s plan man and woman have the vocation of “subduing” the earth[248] as stewards of God. This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator “who loves everything that exists”,[249] to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God has entrusted to them.
**II. THE VOCATION TO CHASTITY
**
2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
2348 All the baptized are called to chastity. The Christian has "put on Christ,"135 the model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.
2349 "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."136 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:
There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others. . . . This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.137
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Jaaanosik
Guest
This very thread is a proof that “chastity of spouses” by using NFP does not work for many couples.
So why rubbing salt into the wound?
The real question is why is NFP harmful to many families?
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Vico
Guest
There is no intention to rub salt into a wound on my part. Where there is justification to exclusively use the naturally infertile periods there is also justification for complete abstinence.
I agree that chastity of the spouses is not achieved using natural family planning sometimes, since there is no guarantee that it will be attainable through natural family planning.
The primary aim in a marriage is sanctification.
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sailor28
Guest
Xantippe,
Oh I have definitely extracted myself. Grateful we all left while the kids are still at home. Healing from the spiritually unhealthy place and undergoing conversion on a daily basis. To be fair, it started out as a healthy place. But wilh zeal that goes unchecked and a profound lack of psychological wellness things took a turn for the worse. Lots of TLM and veils. I’ve never seen a great deal of health in the people that embrace that. (My world is not representative of the whole population. Those are just my observations)
*I’m kind of surprised that Steubenville is good enough for them. (My husband once visited and sent me a funny photo from I think some outdoor stations of the cross at Steubenville–there was a sign posted instructing visitors to put on shoes before doing the stations. !!!)
*
Well, yes it is the cream of the crop to many. Many parents actually don’t give their kids of choice of where they will go. Steubenville is it. I personally will not send my kids there.
I have to be honest, CAF reminds me of this parish. Yes I can see the good. But I see the often unbalanced advice. Like, kissing before marriage is a sin. Also, I see a lot of the doctrinal zeal with the lack of charity and compassion. It is very familiar. I’m only a lurker and write now and then. This topic in particular is interesting.
Oh I have definitely extracted myself. Grateful we all left while the kids are still at home. Healing from the spiritually unhealthy place and undergoing conversion on a daily basis. To be fair, it started out as a healthy place. But wilh zeal that goes unchecked and a profound lack of psychological wellness things took a turn for the worse. Lots of TLM and veils. I’ve never seen a great deal of health in the people that embrace that. (My world is not representative of the whole population. Those are just my observations)
*I’m kind of surprised that Steubenville is good enough for them. (My husband once visited and sent me a funny photo from I think some outdoor stations of the cross at Steubenville–there was a sign posted instructing visitors to put on shoes before doing the stations. !!!)
*
Well, yes it is the cream of the crop to many. Many parents actually don’t give their kids of choice of where they will go. Steubenville is it. I personally will not send my kids there.
I have to be honest, CAF reminds me of this parish. Yes I can see the good. But I see the often unbalanced advice. Like, kissing before marriage is a sin. Also, I see a lot of the doctrinal zeal with the lack of charity and compassion. It is very familiar. I’m only a lurker and write now and then. This topic in particular is interesting.
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sailor28
Guest
sdeco,
You said:
*I have always been very, very pro-life, and I have even been active in the pro-life movement, yet this case just shook me to my core. I had flashbacks to my own health crisis with my second baby. The thought that such a situation exists – where the only way to save the mother’s life is abortion – is utterly horrifying to me. I had always previously believed that such cases never existed. Can you imagine having a hospital stripped of the Eucharist and their Catholic status because of an action taken to save your life?! I don’t think I could be Catholic anymore after that. Now, a lot of Catholics were saying that abortion was actually not the only way to save this woman’s life, and I really, really hope they’re right. I just fear they are not. *
I don’t think anyone has commented on this. I personally would not go to a Catholic hospital if my life and/or my baby’s life were in danger. (and well, I work in one…) I do believe there are situations where the baby and mother’s life are both in danger and both could die. If the only option were to save my life so that we both don’t die my husband and I would have a painful choice to make.
Also, if I had an ectopic pregnancy I would not go to a Catholic hospital. I do not agree with the church’s teaching that the only way to remove the baby is by cutting out part of my tube. (which increases my risk down the line for another ectopic pregnancy). I understand the theological nuance the church puts forth but either way the baby dies. I clearly understand the church believes one way you are fixing a defective part and another you are committing abortion. But it involves a lot of theological gymnastics and logic does not seem to be part of it. I am grateful to have never been in these positions. What a devastating place to be.
I don’t bring this up because I want to discuss this teaching. But just to let you know others ask similiar questions. It is good to ask questions and think about how you would feel is you were in that position and what would be the ethical choice you would make.
You said:
*I have always been very, very pro-life, and I have even been active in the pro-life movement, yet this case just shook me to my core. I had flashbacks to my own health crisis with my second baby. The thought that such a situation exists – where the only way to save the mother’s life is abortion – is utterly horrifying to me. I had always previously believed that such cases never existed. Can you imagine having a hospital stripped of the Eucharist and their Catholic status because of an action taken to save your life?! I don’t think I could be Catholic anymore after that. Now, a lot of Catholics were saying that abortion was actually not the only way to save this woman’s life, and I really, really hope they’re right. I just fear they are not. *
I don’t think anyone has commented on this. I personally would not go to a Catholic hospital if my life and/or my baby’s life were in danger. (and well, I work in one…) I do believe there are situations where the baby and mother’s life are both in danger and both could die. If the only option were to save my life so that we both don’t die my husband and I would have a painful choice to make.
Also, if I had an ectopic pregnancy I would not go to a Catholic hospital. I do not agree with the church’s teaching that the only way to remove the baby is by cutting out part of my tube. (which increases my risk down the line for another ectopic pregnancy). I understand the theological nuance the church puts forth but either way the baby dies. I clearly understand the church believes one way you are fixing a defective part and another you are committing abortion. But it involves a lot of theological gymnastics and logic does not seem to be part of it. I am grateful to have never been in these positions. What a devastating place to be.
I don’t bring this up because I want to discuss this teaching. But just to let you know others ask similiar questions. It is good to ask questions and think about how you would feel is you were in that position and what would be the ethical choice you would make.
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Xantippe
Guest
Very good!
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Xantippe
Guest
By the way, I’m pretty sure that CAF isn’t actually an NFP-loving hivemind.
In my experience here, people will get into the nuts and bolts with you here, but they don’t do the NFP cult thing (which I haven’t actually ever seen more than once or twice outside the CCL newsletter) where they tell you how AMAZING and PERFECT it is. On CAF, you normally get lots of people giving practical advice, and then a handful of people parachuting in to say, “You know you, you don’t have to use NFP,” and “Do you actually have serious reasons?” CAF has providentialists and rigorists–we don’t have NFP cultists, at least not that I’ve seen in the family life forum.
In my experience here, people will get into the nuts and bolts with you here, but they don’t do the NFP cult thing (which I haven’t actually ever seen more than once or twice outside the CCL newsletter) where they tell you how AMAZING and PERFECT it is. On CAF, you normally get lots of people giving practical advice, and then a handful of people parachuting in to say, “You know you, you don’t have to use NFP,” and “Do you actually have serious reasons?” CAF has providentialists and rigorists–we don’t have NFP cultists, at least not that I’ve seen in the family life forum.
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Jaaanosik
Guest
What sanctification you have in mind?
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Vico
Guest
I mean the mutual help of each of the spouses to live a holy life – avoiding evil and doing good. There are actual graces given by God, specific to marriage, to strengthen them in that state. Also, for any sacrament of marriage (both baptized) there is mutual help to remain in a state of sanctifying grace.
There are many places to read of the sanctification, but one in particular comes to mind, is from St. Pope John Paul II, familiaris consortio:Christian marriage, like the other sacraments, “whose purpose is to sanctify people, to build up the body of Christ, and finally, to give worship to God,”(141) is in itself a liturgical action glorifying God in Jesus Christ and in the Church. By celebrating it, Christian spouses profess their gratitude to God for the sublime gift bestowed on them of being able to live in their married and family lives the very love of God for people and that of the Lord Jesus for the Church, His bride.
Just as husbands and wives receive from the sacrament the gift and responsibility of translating into daily living the sanctification bestowed on them, so the same sacrament confers on them the grace and moral obligation of transforming their whole lives into a “spiritual sacrifice.”(142) What the Council says of the laity applies also to Christian spouses and parents, especially with regard to the earthly and temporal realities that characterize their lives: “As worshippers leading holy lives in every place, the laity consecrate the world itself to God.”(143)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html
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gardenswithkids
Guest
:hug1:
You are long time member here. I see that you have loved your Catholic faith deeply in the past and tried very hard to follow the Church teachings even when your husband did not. Pregnancy has posed some particularly difficult challenges for you. And believe me, I know that trying to pray or even just pay attention at Mass when surrounded by young children can be difficult!
God loves you. And God loves women. The Creation story tells us that the last thing God created was a woman. Remember the Bible verse–“the last shall be first and the first shall be last”? God created a woman last because He was making all the rest of creation for us women all along! Men are okay, but in all of creation, the most perfect creature is Mary, a woman. Jesus was born of her, but He was both God and man. Mary was just human–a woman. And God loves her. The Catholic Church loves her. John Paul II loved her. And God loves you–a woman. I suspect He’s far more pleased with you than He is with your husband. I suspect all of these Church teachings for you would have been much easier if your husband had accepted them and kept his faith. You–and your female body’s ability to become pregnant-- are not responsible for your husband’s loss of faith! God loves in you what your husband did not. He loves you with or without your being pregnant, but He never disliked that you could become pregnant.
It seems that many people who claim to be advocates for women don’t really like women’s fertility. They find our fertility inconvenient at times. They attack our fertility through pushing contraception and sterilization in order to make us more like men–who cannot physically bear children. The potential to carry children within our wombs makes women different from men. It doesn’t make us lesser than men–we could argue it makes us greater.
I only know you from posts you’ve shared here, and I don’t know your husband at all–but from what I’ve seen you write, I think you are greater than your husband. Frankly, he sounds like he’s been a bit of a jerk towards you in regards to NFP and the Church teachings. I’m sure he has his reasons, like stress over the responsibility of raising several young children, fear of losing you to pregnancy, etc. Whatever his reasons, he doesn’t behave like the man you thought you were marrying. God loves your husband too–but I think God likes you better.
I’m saying a prayer for you!
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
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Jaaanosik
Guest
Well, the sanctification can be achieved without marriage and it’s important to every christian regardless of marriage. The grace coming from sacraments (not only marriage) is not a goal. The grace is a help to achieve the goal - one’s salvation.
Your quote goes against Casti Connubii:
“The primary end of marriage is the procreation and the education of children.”
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Vico
Guest
I mean goal synonymous with purpose “The reason for which something is done” as used in familiaris consortio. There is no conflict with Casti Connubii. That document refers specifically to Gen 1:28 (be fruitful and multiply) and Encyclical familiaris consortio refers to Vatican II on sacraments in general, including matrimony, “whose purpose is to sanctify people, to build up the body of Christ, and finally, to give worship to God,” – *Sacrosanctum Concilium *59. This is applicable because any end of marriage must also nourish the Christian life.CAPUT III. DE CETERIS SACRAMENTIS ET DE SACRAMENTALIBUS
59 Sacramenta ordinantur ad sanctificationem hominum, ad aedificationem Corporis Christi, ad cultum denique Deo reddendum; ut signa vero etiam ad instructionem pertinent. Fidem non solum supponunt, sed verbis et rebus etiam alunt, roborant, exprimunt; quare fidei sacramenta dicuntur. Gratiam quidem conferunt, sed eorum celebratio fideles optime etiam disponit ad eandem gratiam fructuose recipiendam, ad Deum rite colendum et ad caritatem exercendam.
Maxime proinde interest ut fideles signa Sacramentorum facile intellegant et ea Sacramenta impensissime frequentent, quae ad vitam christianam alendam sunt instituta.
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Vico
Guest
I thought I better post this from Casti Connubii to remove doubts:
24. This mutual molding of husband and wife, this determined effort to perfect each other, can in a very real sense, as the Roman Catechism teaches, be said to be the chief reason and purpose of matrimony, provided matrimony be looked at not in the restricted sense as instituted for the proper conception and education of the child, but more widely as the blending of life as a whole and the mutual interchange and sharing thereof.
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Jaaanosik
Guest
That makes sense.
Thanks.
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GoldenArrow
Guest
I am also having a bit of crisis in my faith over NFP and the whole idea that married Catholic women are nothing more than baby-making machines – and the entire lack of flexibility in considering the health of the mother or any extenuating circumstances that were present before the marriage or that develop within it.
I got married a few months ago. I’m almost 44. My husband was told there was a 75% chance he was sterile due to a hernia surgery. He isn’t Catholic and wasn’t totally on board with NFP, so I decided to throw caution to the wind and forget about NFP altogether.
I tested positive for pregnancy 2 wks ago and now I’m pretty certain I’m having a miscarriage. I was open to children when we married but I’ve decided that I never, ever, ever want to be pregnant again. I do not want to experience the emotional pain of losing a child again, nor do I want to experience this the physical pain of a miscarriage again! We had even picked out baby names. I miscarried on New Years Eve.
I was even considering making my husband get a vasectomy, but I decided not to because it’s a sin. I love him too much to make him culpable.
I should never have been so stupid and careless in the first place. I’m bipolar and take Lithium. My doctor told me the drug is teratogenic and to not get pregnant on it. You’re not supposed to take it through a pregnancy or during breastfeeding. I went off the drug cold turkey when my period was late, suspecting a pregnancy.
And within 2 wks I started going crazy again. I have the bad kind of bipolar disorder with hearing voices and having hallucinations so I can’t live without lithium.
There are no safe replacement drugs for lithium save Lamictal. I’ve tried a variety of psychoactive agents and nothing works but Lithium.
So what is a woman in my position to do? If I obeyed church law I’d go off lithium and be crazy, but a good baby-making machine. But hey! Guess what? My husband is unable to support the two of us for health reasons and I’m the money earner of the family. I’m a health professional. Marriage is not my only vocation! So what the heck am I supposed to do??? I can’t see patients when I’m crazy and untreated!!!
I’m not going to abstain because it would end my marriage.
I’m going to use condoms, sin or no sin, until I learn how to use NFP in combination with an ovulation predictor so that I never become pregnant again because it poses too great a risk to my own health. I will teach myself using everything at my disposal … whether the church approves of an ovulation decector or fertility detector or not!
I figure that if God had wanted me to be a baby-making machine, he should have healed my Bipolar disorder when I’d asked him to do so YEARS ago.
PLUS … pregnancy induces manias and 50% of women who are pregnant and who have no drugs for their Bipolar disorder will relapse. I consider this a “dry run” that failed and a foretaste of the future should I adhere to the letter of the law.
The Church forces people into serious sin with all the rigid rules. You lay burdens upon us that we can’t bear.
I mean … seriously??? Where’s the compassion? Without Lithium, I’d be dead. I’m caught in a Catch-22.
There should be more room for dispensations in cases where pregnancy would cause permanent harm to the mother or where she is taking medication that she can’t live without that is in the Pregnancy Category C category.
I feel like the writer(s) of Humanae Vitae know nothing about medicine or obstetrics.
So … yeah … this sort of thing can lead to a crisis of faith. Most certainly! I hope my faith in God returns someday. For now, I have even more faith in the love of my husband, who has been my only salvation during this dark time.
I got married a few months ago. I’m almost 44. My husband was told there was a 75% chance he was sterile due to a hernia surgery. He isn’t Catholic and wasn’t totally on board with NFP, so I decided to throw caution to the wind and forget about NFP altogether.
I tested positive for pregnancy 2 wks ago and now I’m pretty certain I’m having a miscarriage. I was open to children when we married but I’ve decided that I never, ever, ever want to be pregnant again. I do not want to experience the emotional pain of losing a child again, nor do I want to experience this the physical pain of a miscarriage again! We had even picked out baby names. I miscarried on New Years Eve.
I was even considering making my husband get a vasectomy, but I decided not to because it’s a sin. I love him too much to make him culpable.
I should never have been so stupid and careless in the first place. I’m bipolar and take Lithium. My doctor told me the drug is teratogenic and to not get pregnant on it. You’re not supposed to take it through a pregnancy or during breastfeeding. I went off the drug cold turkey when my period was late, suspecting a pregnancy.
And within 2 wks I started going crazy again. I have the bad kind of bipolar disorder with hearing voices and having hallucinations so I can’t live without lithium.
There are no safe replacement drugs for lithium save Lamictal. I’ve tried a variety of psychoactive agents and nothing works but Lithium.
So what is a woman in my position to do? If I obeyed church law I’d go off lithium and be crazy, but a good baby-making machine. But hey! Guess what? My husband is unable to support the two of us for health reasons and I’m the money earner of the family. I’m a health professional. Marriage is not my only vocation! So what the heck am I supposed to do??? I can’t see patients when I’m crazy and untreated!!!
I’m not going to abstain because it would end my marriage.
I’m going to use condoms, sin or no sin, until I learn how to use NFP in combination with an ovulation predictor so that I never become pregnant again because it poses too great a risk to my own health. I will teach myself using everything at my disposal … whether the church approves of an ovulation decector or fertility detector or not!
I figure that if God had wanted me to be a baby-making machine, he should have healed my Bipolar disorder when I’d asked him to do so YEARS ago.
PLUS … pregnancy induces manias and 50% of women who are pregnant and who have no drugs for their Bipolar disorder will relapse. I consider this a “dry run” that failed and a foretaste of the future should I adhere to the letter of the law.
The Church forces people into serious sin with all the rigid rules. You lay burdens upon us that we can’t bear.
I mean … seriously??? Where’s the compassion? Without Lithium, I’d be dead. I’m caught in a Catch-22.
There should be more room for dispensations in cases where pregnancy would cause permanent harm to the mother or where she is taking medication that she can’t live without that is in the Pregnancy Category C category.
I feel like the writer(s) of Humanae Vitae know nothing about medicine or obstetrics.
So … yeah … this sort of thing can lead to a crisis of faith. Most certainly! I hope my faith in God returns someday. For now, I have even more faith in the love of my husband, who has been my only salvation during this dark time.
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Xantippe
Guest
I’m so sorry about your miscarriage.
I think you’re under certain misunderstandings about what the Church requires of you. Talk to your pastor, but it is my understanding that you are quite free to use NFP as long as you have your current health issues (which, realistically speaking, may well be for the rest of your fertility).
I’ll put a quote or two up from Humanae Vitae once I have a minute.
- Status