Crisis of faith

[TruthSeekah]

Dear friends,

I’m new here and my english isn’t perfect, so I hope you’ll be forgiving of my style of writing.

I started to consider myself a Christian when I was 15 or so, when I was going through episodes of heavy suffering, so it’s been a good 10 years now.

I remember the very first time I realized this, I just broke up with my beloved girlfriend (not really, she broke up with me ) and I was walking down the street, when someone offered me the Holy Bible. I wasn’t in the mood, but when I told him I’m not interested, he asked me: “Do you believe in God?” and I was like “Actually, I do believe in God, what kind of question is that?” It was really beautiful… and it still is, when I reminisce about that moment.

But this last year… I feel like somethings is changing.

There seem to have happened what I’d call “shifts” in my perception of the world and of life as a whole, most notably in few last months, that made it a real trial to keep my faith, I feel like I’m losing this battle

The problem is this: God always gave me comfort, really deep inside me, I knew he is always with me. But now, I don’t know why, but comfort doesn’t seem to be enough. It seems that something have changed… and I now want it to… make sense. I want God to make sense.

I’ve always been very logical and analytic person, yet it didn’t pose any problem to my faith. Now it does. I wish I could just go back to the way I was before, but I’m afraid that it’s not possible.

Faith in a personal God doesn’t seem to go well with things that I’m feeling. I read around a little bit and I’ve seen few threads regarding this things, but I started my own thread just to be sure it won’t sink in other posts, I hope it’s not a problem.

If there was someone who could clarify in as logical way as he/she could few of my issues I’m currently fighting inside, I would really appreciate that.

Bless you all!
Peter

 

[Trishie]

Dear Peter, it seems that you are being led past just having feelings to support your faith an God and your relationship with Him,
and now you need to answer your questions to find a deep faith.

When we rely on feelings of comfort, Saint Paul writes in 1 Corinthians verse 2
“I fed you with milk and not solid food, for you were not yet able to take it – and even now, you are still not able to…” and that’s how it often is in the early part of our spiritual life.

That you are asking questions may be an indication that you are ready to ask more questions that need to be answered, and then grow more spiritually.

I have to go out soon as it will soon be noon in Australia, and we have a family event, but I am happy to help where I can, as will others here.
Feel free to ask any questions that you wish to
…and don’t be concerned about your English as you express yourself very well.

Kind wishes and prayers,

Trishie

 

[Brockman1996]

I dont get on here very often but I will see if I can help. I was an Atheist once and let me tell you, dont go there it`s a life of unhappiness and dread. I became religious again with these two things and hopefully it will help.

1. The belief in God
   Lets look at modern science and its views on the origin of the universe. In the beginning there was nothing then BANG the big bang. It is 100% impossible to go from nothing to something like an apple appearing before me can`t happen. So something must have caused the big bang but then something must have caused that and something caused that and so on FOREVER and ever. So only a God could have caused the beginning of the universe.
   So God=Proven
2. Which Religion is true?
   I went through every world Religion and I can tell you Catholicism is the truth. The number one reason is the miracles. Catholicism is the ONLY religion in the world to have thousands and thousands of confirmed miracles. The best example is the Miracle of the Sun, look it up it was witnessed by tens of thousands of people many were unbelievers. You can`t fake thousands of witnesses or tens of thousands of miracles, think about it. This made me go from a sinfull atheist to god willing a future Catholic Priest. God bless you and I will pray for you.
   PS If my spelling is bad please forgive me.

 

[tlimon]

Hello TruthSeeka:

Start simple! I tend to agree with Brockman. Catholicism is highly analytic, logical, and deductive. It’s easy to become distraught with the plausibility of a virgin birth or ecclesiastical authority. However, there are reasons for believing these things that rest on predicates, which then validate later inferences drawn from those early propositions.

1. There is a God.
2. God is love.
3. God must be one, an uncaused cause.
4. In order for two and three to be true, then God must be at minimum three because a God who loved only himself would be a narcissist.
5. Therefore, God is the Father, who is coeternal and consubstantial with the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the love they share proceeding from them both.
6. The rest of Catholicism is merely the implications.

 

[Isler]

Dear TruthSeekah

All I can tell you is that you remind me of myself in younger years. I questioned everything and thought I had to come away from the beliefs I had grown up with and find some other way. I tried looking into other faiths then Agnosticism and Atheism; ultimately they left me in a similar place - I felt they weren’t enough; that they didn’t answer my questions fully.

Many years on, I now believe I started doubting God and the Church because I couldn’t be bothered to work through my questioning - I just expected answers to be found quickly. I didn’t struggle with my faith, I just walked away and became fickle, flitting from one faith to another, from one disbelief to another, from this philosophy to that psychology.

So I would advise you to struggle on; it may feel like a personal hell at present, but don’t run away from your demons. Don’t expect everything to become clear and calm quickly, it may not. Faith is not easy, not if you live it and are honest about it. This could be your opportunity to grow spiritually and for deeper understanding. I imagine anyone who’s ever thought at all will have grappled with their concept of God at some point.

As for proof of God’s existence - I see it in us. In our literature, arts and sciences. Look at what we’ve achieved as human beings and marvel. Do we need poetry in order to exist? Music? The ability to send a man to walk on the Moon? It was questioning that led great minds to achieve great things and it is questioning that makes us search constantly.

You seek the truth, don’t you? You don’t get it without a struggle or without sacrifice. Remember, even Jesus thought his Father had forsaken him once.

Stay strong.

 

[snarflemike]

I’ve always been very logical and analytic person, yet it didn’t pose any problem to my faith. Now it does. I wish I could just go back to the way I was before, but I’m afraid that it’s not possible.

Have you explored the many proofs for the existence of God? The Catholic Church teaches that one may know of the existence of God by natural reason alone. Perhaps you should apply your logical and analytical side to learning and understanding those proofs. You might be very surprised how strong the theist position is, and how weak the atheist position is.

 

[Marie1234]

Perhaps you are going through the Dark Night of the Soul (you may want to do research into this). I went through it. It is a horrible, torturous experience but I came out of it an even stronger believer. Keep praying even if you have doubts and fears; God is still listening. Never give up and never stop seeking God. Don’t fall victim to the secular world.

You are in my prayers

 

[jochoa]

The problem is this: God always gave me comfort, really deep inside me, I knew he is always with me. But now, I don’t know why, but comfort doesn’t seem to be enough. It seems that something have changed… and I now want it to… make sense. I want God to make sense.

I definitely share in the passionate desire for God and His ways to make sense! I hope your journey in growing in the knowledge of God and His Heavenly Kingdom be as peaceful as possible! I would like to share the following concept with you.

The following is the method I have come to understand so many teachings of the Church: Pondering how a Creator shares the means to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all, including the self.

Here are some of my initial analysis which shed light on Teachings of the Church:
In order to share this experience, the Creator must create an ever-lasting society of a limitless number of true friends, in which the Creator can participate as a friend, and the Creator initially exists in absolute solitude. (This is Heaven, and the things the Creator must do to create this is defined in the Nicene Creed).
In order to live in this experience, each true friend must freely choose to live in eternal oneness with the means to achieve the pinnacle of living: the Greatest Commandment of Jesus, which can be defined as: Always freely being and spreading the means to freely be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all the body, spirit (memory of the person), thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all, including the self.
In order to demonstrate the free-willed dedication to this commandment, while on earth, one must freely-subject him/herself to the Pinnacle of Living while on earth, which is the Greatest Commandment of Jesus, along with the Sacraments of Catholicism.

Once again, my friend, may your journey be as peaceful as possible, and I look forward to further discussion!

 

[TruthSeekah]

Oh my! What a beautiful and encouraging answers to my sad situation! Thank you very much, friends! I even got one very beautifl PM, that went very deep into my concerns and had been very helpful. However, there has been lots going on and things shifted again.

I’m so sorry I didn’t respond sooner, I am very busy at the moment with changes taking place in my day to day life.

I didn’t really said what my doubts are and how I got there, so here we go.

What lead to this situation is actually a leap of faith. The biggest I’ve ever done in my whole life. I came to the point of strong honesty where I said to myself: Many Christians seems to be very afraid and even dreaded by other views of world, life and God. People call it being close-mindned. You can clearly see it in some dangerous sects over the world. People are lead to this behaviour by leaders because opening their mind would inevitably lead to seeing through the lie they’ve been fed.

And I saw this in many Christians. I know you do too. And I also saw it in myself. So I came to the point where I said to myself: If there should be anyone in this whole world that is not afraid - it should be us, Christians. Our religion must easily demolish all objections if it were to be the One. And I really believed it were the One, so I took the leap. I opened myself to all objections, other religions, mysticism and spirituality. For if it’s real and Jesus is my Savior, I have nothing to worry about and it will eventually endure this trial without a slightest doubt.

Funny thing, other religions and mysticism didn’t do much damage at all. It all seemed to be just various interpretations of the almighty God, some worse than others.

Then I looked into modern science. Great news, lots of renowned Christian scientists like Eben Alexander or Francis Collins. It felt good.

However, I wanted to go deeper than that. Being satisfied with what clever people think seems fine most of the time, but it would not do for me, not now, not when I want the Truth. In the end, after honest investigation, they are just scientists believing in God, not endowed with some special scientific kind of a believe. So them being scientists doesn’t change anything, it’s exactly the same as believing hairdresser

So I looked at what modern neuroscience have to say about the nature of reality. And there it was. Reasons so solid that it destroys everything I’ve ever believed in. Benjamin Libet’s tests with free will to start with. And many others, not only EEG, also FMRI and other methods of brain scanning.

No free will. Solid. Determinism. Compatibilism? Weak. This one thing and everything starts going downwards.

—> illusion of self - no entity choosing, just choices being made. Not compatible with almost any mainstream religion. “Me” and “you” are just aftermaths of the way we use language from early age, they are not some eternal entities. Even if there is an eternal soul in each and every one of us - it doesn’t change a thing about free will.

No self, no separation, no cause and effect. Logically rock solid, unfortunately, not really Christian teaching compatible.

It’s a mess. It may lead somewhere, but I don’t know where. What I do know is that there is no going back to “safe place of blind faith” for me anymore. This either makes sense somehow, or Christianity for me didn’t endure confrontation with reality.

I kind of realized, in the time that passed since my first post, that I may not be really having a hard time accepting God (for neuroscience doesn’t rule out deep spiritual experiences and deep religious feelings), but rather the view of organized Religion

If I had a choice to go back to where I was - I would so said YES YES YES when I wrote the original post. But now - I’m not that sure. Because what if - honestly speaking, what if I didn’t do stupid thing by taking this leap of faith? What if I was just brave enough to see through the illusion? What if there would be many more people discovering what I discovered if they did what I did?

What if? :idea:

 

[Al_Moritz]

Then I looked into modern science. Great news, lots of renowned Christian scientists like Eben Alexander or Francis Collins. It felt good.

However, I wanted to go deeper than that. Being satisfied with what clever people think seems fine most of the time, but it would not do for me, not now, not when I want the Truth. In the end, after honest investigation, they are just scientists believing in God, not endowed with some special scientific kind of a believe. So them being scientists doesn’t change anything, it’s exactly the same as believing hairdresser

So I looked at what modern neuroscience have to say about the nature of reality. And there it was. Reasons so solid that it destroys everything I’ve ever believed in. Benjamin Libet’s tests with free will to start with. And many others, not only EEG, also FMRI and other methods of brain scanning.

No free will. Solid. Determinism. Compatibilism? Weak. This one thing and everything starts going downwards.

Nah, don’t worry about free will. The Libet experiment does not hold up:

newscientist.com/article/dn22144-brain-might-not-stand-in-the-way-of-free-will.html

newscientist.com/article/dn17835-free-will-is-not-an-illusion-after-all.html

As for my stance and arguments as both a believer and a scientist:

Cosmological arguments for the existence of God (A philosophical perspective on findings of science):
home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/cosmological-arguments-god.htm

“Naturalism is true”: A self-contradictory statement (here I argue against determinism with regard to the human mind)
home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/naturalism_is_true.htm

How can a scientist believe in God?
home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/scientist-belief-god.htm

 

[Al_Moritz]

And many others, not only EEG, also FMRI and other methods of brain scanning.

A potent cure against gullibility regarding fMRI and brain scanning is the book Aping Mankind by Raymond Tallis, a neuroscientist and atheist, against what he calls “Neuromania” and “Darwinitis”:

amazon.com/Aping-Mankind-Neuromania-Darwinitis-Misrepresentation/dp/1844652734

(The link also contains my review of the book.)

 

[fred_conty]

@Truthseeker, you said,
Quote
If I had a choice to go back to where I was - I would so said YES YES YES when I wrote the original post. But now - I’m not that sure. Because what if - honestly speaking, what if I didn’t do stupid thing by taking this leap of faith? What if I was just brave enough to see through the illusion? What if there would be many more people discovering what I discovered if they did what I did?

What if?
Unquote

If I may do a little soft advice, “what if” will never ever be satisfied. There is always one more “what if” right around the corner waiting. And the mind thinks, what other “what if” is there that I forgot to look at today. Worry worry worry.

I have been thru this with two people in my family, the “what if” game. It was challenging to get them over it. And they hated every moment of it.

To fight this, it simply has to be put out of the mind any way possible. It drives the person in circles and they end up still not being sure because noone can possibly get answers to all and every “what if” out there.

What needs to be targeted is Jesus Christ and the church he gave us which has all the correct answers to all our “what if’s”. He is the son of God, and there are no “what if’s” in his vocabulary, he is the answer. Try to stay with that thought and remove yourself from the other.

Just a hopeful suggestion.

 

[TruthSeekah]

Fred: Thank you. I think I used the “what if” in more critical way however. Disputing and putting it out of my mind is just running from it out of fear. I’m not gonna do that. Let’s do just the opposite. I’m gonna plunge right into it and see it for what it really is. Because if there was no-one to do that, we wouldn’t have computers and electricity nowadays. If the only way to win over this is putting it ouf of one’s mind, then I’m gonna lose.

Al Moritz:
Thank you for links provided. I checked them out and also read your review of Tallis’ book, sounds like very interesting reading, I might give it a go.

In the meanwhile… links about Libet’s experiments are good. However, they don’t conclusivly prove that he was wrong. It just shows that his findings are being challenged, which is always good, but this don’t disprove them.

But all science talk aside… Let’s see about everyday experiences, that’s where it gets really interesting. The thing is… if you closely and carefully watch the ways in which your mind works, with a little honesty you will also end up in the “no free will” land. If you could show me that there is some evident mistake in my train of thoughts, that would be all proof I need, no matter what scientists and brain scans say.

The things is… there is strong, strong feeling that the entity inside you living your life is choosing every minute. Call it soul or whatever, it doesn’t matter to what I’m interested in.

It’s so obvious. Of course you’re chosing. Everyone is, always was and it’s just the way life is. Well… let’s slow down for a second and see. Let’s scrutinize this assumption.

If I tell you to pick one color. Or vegetable. Or city. Pick one of each. Now… this is really important, because there’s all free will you will ever have in your life, am I right? I didn’t give you ANY criteria AT ALL. You can chose whatever you want. It seems superficial, of course, but it’s the same free will you’ll have when wondering about killing someone, forgiving someone or chosing a direction of your whole life. So don’t take it lightly and do it please. Pick.

 

[jochoa]

If I had a choice to go back to where I was - I would so said YES YES YES when I wrote the original post. But now - I’m not that sure. Because what if - honestly speaking, what if I didn’t do stupid thing by taking this leap of faith? What if I was just brave enough to see through the illusion? What if there would be many more people discovering what I discovered if they did what I did?

What if? :idea:

Excellent concept, my friend! There has also been a time for me in which I considered religious and theistic concepts to be illusions. Yet, the confidence in believing it was all an illusion, guided me to discover that God and His Holy Catholic Church is absolute truth.

Please consider another method I used to grow in understanding and knowing God and His Church.

First, I lived as though there was no God or True Religion. Though I was still trying my best to help and achieve greater living, I did not worry about the existence of God or Truth.
Second, I asked myself, “What is the purpose of life?”
Third, I discovered: the greatest purpose in living, no matter what type of being one is, is to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace.
Fourth, I resolved to achieve permanently living in this experience, given the rules of earthly living.
Fifth, I discovered: the teachings of Jesus, especially, the greatest act, the greatest commandment, and embracing the cross are absolute truth.
Sixth, I pondered how to share the means to this experience given the perspective of the belief in God, the Creator of everything. (Existing in absolute solitude)
Seventh, I discovered the only solution to sharing the means is in perfect alignment with the 2000 year old teachings of the Catholic Church.

If I tell you to pick one color. Or vegetable. Or city. Pick one of each. Now… this is really important, because there’s all free will you will ever have in your life, am I right? I didn’t give you ANY criteria AT ALL. You can chose whatever you want. It seems superficial, of course, but it’s the same free will you’ll have when wondering about killing someone, forgiving someone or chosing a direction of your whole life. So don’t take it lightly and do it please. Pick.

Have you considered the “What if…you know all the options and consequences of every option of every scenario…do you then have free will” scenario?

For example: Consider the question: Will I believe in God and His heavenly kingdom He has awaiting me?
There are only two possible resolutions to this question: “Yes, I will.” and “No, I won’t.” Please recognize that the response, “I am not sure.” is not a resolution.
Next, we can deduce that the consequence of choosing the option to believe in God and His heavenly kingdom grants the hope for living there. And we can deduce that the consequence of choosing the option to not believe in God and His heavenly kingdom destroys the hope for living there because one does not believe it exists.
If I have the hope of living there, we can also deduce that I will strive to do what is necessary to live there.
If I do not believe it exists, we can deduce that it is impossible for me to strive to do what is necessary to live there because I do not even consider it to exist.

Since I know these are the only possible options, and I know these are the consequences of each option, would you recognize that I now have free will in terms of choosing how I will respond to this question?

Thanks for the excellent and challenging food for thought! I look forward to further discussion!

 

[TruthSeekah]

part I:

Whoa! New insights coming every day… I think I’m not afraid of this process anymore. It’s not really what I believed in and what Bible preaches, but it feels right and doesn’t oppose logic. I’m just waiting for the first comment regarding me as a blasphemer, I know my honesty can possibly be offensive, but it’s not meant to offend

jochoa! Thank you so much. Very good stuff. I’ll try to apply what you wrote to me with my current logic. I’m not trying to dispute your beliefs, I’m just applying it to mine current view, so thanks for taking it easy.

First, I lived as though there was no God or True Religion. Though I was still trying my best to help and achieve greater living, I did not worry about the existence of God or Truth.

Yes, true. Every living organism wants to be as content as possible. So do I and so do ants.

Second, I asked myself, “What is the purpose of life?”

You asked yourself this because you weren’t content enough or you were and it got boring. Probably former though. Most people come to God this way. Ants don’t ask this because their brain is just not able to do it. If they had our brains, they probably would.

Third, I discovered: the greatest purpose in living, no matter what type of being one is, is to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace.

Same wish as 1, shifted POV. Living in this earthly existence, there will always be pain and ups and downs, so searching for something beyond this limitation is logical and very reasonable.

Fourth, I resolved to achieve permanently living in this experience, given the rules of earthly living.

Sounds good. Rules of earthly living though… you knew them PRIOR to discovering Jesus? And Holy Bible matched them exactly right? That would be awesome. Then, there would be absolutely no dilema. But that’s not really how it is, is it? I did the same, but I picked over those rules from the Christians, not the other way around. And I realize it matched… sort of. But better some harmony than total chaos, isn’t it right? Just as first sentence… going the way of smaller pain. But that doesn’t mean it’s the only one or that going further would mean certain hell.

Fifth, I discovered: the teachings of Jesus, especially, the greatest act, the greatest commandment, and embracing the cross are absolute truth.

How did you discovered that this is the absolute truth? Faith? That’s not discovering. Thats hoping in something that’s probably true and would bring you contentment if it were true. It’s like placing a bet in lottery. Lots of people do it and few won (got resurrected).

Sixth, I pondered how to share the means to this experience given the perspective of the belief in God, the Creator of everything. (Existing in absolute solitude)

You didn’t have to ponder very much. The path for those who have faith in Bible is pretty narrow, isn’t it? I know it from my own life. It’s not like you could’ve end up giving satsangs about enlightenment in India while being faithful Christian. That’s not what Church and Bible wants you to do.

Seventh, I discovered the only solution to sharing the means is in perfect alignment with the 2000 year old teachings of the Catholic Church.

How did you discovered THIS is the only solution? You would’ve needed to know ALL possibilities of religious experiences to make sure that there is only one that works. You would’ve to be muslim for twenty years and jainist for another ten and nondual for some more. It’s better to say that it kind of clicked so you didn’t need to search anymore, right? That’s fine. But WHAT IF searchning MORE meant chance to find something greater? Would you, or would you rather settle?

Which brings me to your second part:

Have you considered the “What if…you know all the options and consequences of every option of every scenario…do you then have free will” scenario?

I have. If I knew all the options and consequences of every option, it wouldn’t change a thing about free will. I’ll show you why below.

For example: Consider the question: Will I believe in God and His heavenly kingdom He has awaiting me?
There are only two possible resolutions to this question: “Yes, I will.” and “No, I won’t.” Please recognize that the response, “I am not sure.” is not a resolution.

Agreed. If one of Yes or No is to be chosen, it will. However, thinking that YOU choose ONE OF THEM FREELY is an utter illusion.

Next, we can deduce that the consequence of choosing the option to believe in God and His heavenly kingdom grants the hope for living there.

Yes, hypothetically, that might be true. Again, nothing suggesting free will.

And we can deduce that the consequence of choosing the option to not believe in God and His heavenly kingdom destroys the hope for living there because one does not believe it exists.

The same applies.

If I have the hope of living there, we can also deduce that I will strive to do what is necessary to live there.

Yes, choice to strive to do what is necessary may be made, not by you though.

If I do not believe it exists, we can deduce that it is impossible for me to strive to do what is necessary to live there because I do not even consider it to exist.

Still the same.

 

[TruthSeekah]

part II:

Since I know these are the only possible options, and I know these are the consequences of each option, would you recognize that I now have free will in terms of choosing how I will respond to this question?

No, you don’t have a free will. There is no you to have free will and thinking so is only illusion made by your mind automatically sticking “I” to everything that happens, even though it’s very obvious, when you look closely, that the choice is made automatically and then the “I chose” is stick to it. It is caused by our use of language from an early age. It’s no conspiracy, it’s just the way it is. Until you were 4 or so, you were functioning perfectly without the sense of I.

To be able to choose YES or NO, there would have to be some little piece of you separated from everything else that is thinker of your thoughts and chooser of choices and liver of your life. There is no such entity, other than in toughts, caused by language AFTER the thinking, choosing and thinking happens. Watch it closely and you can see, no need to believe me, absolutely none.

But everything you’re consciously aware of is consequence of prior causes you cannot inspect and therefor influence. Even if I were to spend two months going from YES to NO and back and forth and the sense of free will would be SO STRONG… the final choice wouldn’t be made by me. Yes or no would be chosen, but I’m in no position to say WHY I DIDN’T CHOOSE the other one.

Thanks for the excellent and challenging food for thought! I look forward to further discussion!

Thank you as well, sir. Are you willing to do this little experiment of mine, with color, vegetable and city? pretty please?

To conclude… I’m starting to like this. I know this very well… for Christians, Bible is the main wall stone of morality. I’m starting to think it may not be entirely true. Some of the countries that are rather atheistic have very small criminality compared to some of those of Christian faith. But even if statistic’s aren’t right… I think, say, some native tribe on a distant island without any organized religion still know that killing other human is wrong. Exceptions expected, but most atheists are still good people.

Also… seeing that people that did horrible things haven’t really chosen to do them with conscious intention to harm is very freeing. “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” or “Father, forgive them; for they did not consciously choose to do harm and evil things.” The first cannot be logically justified. You have to believe it’s true, and that doesn’t work that well. Because you don’t know. The latter, I think, is logically tenable. Why would I want to depend upon something I find hard to believe if I can get the same result and peace with my reasoning intact?

But it doesn’t mean choices that are made by themselves doesn’t matter and have consequences. They do! There’s just no you that picked them over anything else.

When you see a tiger runnning your direction, you will still be afraid, even though you know it is not an evil creature, it’s just in its nature to eat meat. And if you survived, you wouldn’t spend the rest of your life hating this tiger. If it was a guy with a chainsaw, you would. Why? Because you think he had a choice not to do that, but tiger didn’t. And that, my friend, is wrong. If you knew every second of this poor guy’s life, maybe being born to alcoholic parents, abusive mother and his father raping him every other day, if you knew how he got victimized in school, what he went through all the way up until this moment, you would know it’s just a second tiger. And you know what? If YOU were HIM in EVERY SECOND of his life, it would be you trying to kill you with a chainsaw. And it would be him. And her. And him. And this priest as well, if he went through exactly what this guy has. Because there is no special piece of us that would make us decide differently.

And although it may seem that way, that is not depressing, not at all. Quite the opposite actually. That IS good and applicable knowledge, it’s not just a linguistical fun, it has real impact, in real life, for real people.

 

[Alberto_Q_CM]

First, excuse me, I’m Italian, and I don’t speak and write English very well. It seems to me that some of the main problems that distress you are:
1)Can I have the complete certainty that God exists?
2)How can exist a free will?
The answer to the first, cannot be found in logics, science, reasoning… It’s a matter of faith: the reasoning can come after the “Door of Faith”; then, If God could be demonstrable out of any doubt we should be puppets in his hands, because we should admit he exists.
There are various answers to the second question, I try to list some of them:

• the variety of position among men on everything one can consider, the discussions, the changes of opinion;
• a little strange contradiction between the supporters of determinism and the supporters (who frequently are deterministic people) of “we are free to make anything we like, no one can force me to make what he wants”
• the repent: if I haven’t free will, why do I repent and try to make up for the damage I caused to someone?
• if I say: we are “Chance and necessity”, I consider chance as God
• without free will anyone can make anything; outcome, probably, in the long term: anarchy that leads to dictatorship and law of the strongest
  …

 

[jochoa]

Yes, true. Every living organism wants to be as content as possible. So do I and so do ants.

Thank you very much for sharing your great perspective and for the extended discussion! Please consider the following questions:
What have you determined the purpose of living to be?
Have you determined there to be any difference between the purpose of plant, animal, or human living?

You asked yourself this because you weren’t content enough or you were and it got boring. Probably former though. Most people come to God this way. Ants don’t ask this because their brain is just not able to do it. If they had our brains, they probably would.

Though it would be definitely valid to declare it the way you have stated, it is not complete. Please consider that it is more completely stated as, “I asked myself this because I saw others weren’t content enough in easy living. I was personally content and not bored with life.” Also, do you have any theory as to why the only living beings to have the ability to ponder ‘what is the purpose of life’ are humans? Or do you possibly have a theory which indicates there are other life forms existing, which have the capability to ponder such questions?

Living in this earthly existence, there will always be pain and ups and downs…

Not necessarily, my friend. Although there will always be pain, it is possible to only live with ups while on earth.

Sounds good. Rules of earthly living though… you knew them PRIOR to discovering Jesus?

Sure, as do you, paraphrased, “while living on earth, there will always be some who are mean and unjustly hateful. And, the purpose of living is to satisfy wants and needs, or to be content.”

And Holy Bible matched them exactly right?

Defintely! “Charity is the Greatest act; Charity is patient, is kind.” Patience maintains contentment when some are mean and unjustly hateful, and a kind act gives pleasure. Therefore, if you want to succeed greatest at the purpose given the rules of earthly existence, you must become greatest at patience and kindness, for then you will experience limitless happiness with unbreakable
peace while living on earth!

That would be awesome.

When I first discovered this, I was definitely completely floored in humility!

Then, there would be absolutely no dilema. But that’s not really how it is, is it?

I see absolutely no dilemma, how about you?

How did you discovered that this is the absolute truth?

Human reason, experimentation, research, struggles, and observation.

You didn’t have to ponder very much. The path for those who have faith in Bible is pretty narrow, isn’t it? I know it from my own life. It’s not like you could’ve end up giving satsangs about enlightenment in India while being faithful Christian. That’s not what Church and Bible wants you to do.

Please consider the following:
The Church wants what is best and easiest for us. Unfortunately for me, I figured this out the hard way by having to question every teaching and understanding, and by searching for answers from many other walks of life, as opposed to simply having faith, hope, and love for God.

How did you discovered THIS is the only solution?

Through thought experiments, analyzing various understandings of history, and pondering various understandings of the future.

You would’ve needed to know ALL possibilities of religious experiences to make sure that there is only one that works. You would’ve to be muslim for twenty years and jainist for another ten and nondual for some more

On the contrary, if we can recognize a few simple facts, we can easily eliminate several possibilities. For example, recognize that an eternal heavenly afterlife is necessary to fulfill the pinnacle purpose of living. Then we can deduce that there must be a single living entity, which exists before all non-living entities, which can purpose and create a heavenly afterlife. Therefore any atheistic concepts will fail to achieve the pinnacle of living, so we must look to something greater.

But WHAT IF searchning MORE meant chance to find something greater? Would you, or would you rather settle?

I am doing just that, and I am finding Catholicism more and more!

Regarding Free Will, here are two concepts to consider:

1. Perhaps you are equating ‘what will we do?’ and ‘what are we doing?’, and in doing so, you are recognizing that we have no ability to change what we are doing. In reference to the question of pick a color, you are definitely correct in that the instance I pick a color, I cannot change what I picked. However, what will I pick is a different question from what color did I pick.
2. Do you consider thoughts as an act of our will?

Thank you very much for very enjoyable conversation!

 

[TruthSeekah]

You’re welcome and thank you as well. It’s very refreshing to meet open minded Christian on the internet. What I don’t address in the following piece are your experiences and beliefs that I have no problem with or I have nothing to say about them. I like your attitude. Let’s get to it, shall we?

What have you determined the purpose of living to be?
Have you determined there to be any difference between the purpose of plant, animal, or human living?

To ask question “what is the purpose of living?” presumes there is someone separated that is living this life, entity that life is happening to. But that feels so only because you never questioned if it’s true. You never questioned if there is anyone inside your head or heart living your life or if life is just doing its thing and your mind is automatically sticking labels on it.

I know it feels strange, but that is only because we’ve all been living in the paradigm introduced by use of language and words “I” and “me” being attached on every action that happens by itself. Have you actually looked where is this “you” that lives your life?

Just entertain the possibility that actions you feel you’re doing happen by themselves and then mind comes in and says “I did it”. Actually check, right now. You don’t need to trust me mate, you can check, everyone can. You don’t have to believe it if it’s really true. It’s true whether you or I believe it or not.

Without this seeming separation, there is only life, manifesting in different forms, like stars and galaxies, stones, river and living organisms as well, plant, animal or human being. I know it may seem very scary at first, it feels like there is no order and world must burn in chaos in five seconds. Actually, when you see what I’m writing is true, there you’ll recognize it always has been true and everything worked just fine. Nothing happens when you see this, only perspective shifts. It has always been like that, nothing new is obtained.

Not necessarily, my friend. Although there will always be pain, it is possible to only live with ups while on earth.

I think this is kind of a fairytale. Maybe we’re on the same page, but we just articulate it differently. How I see it is that there definitely can be deep, spiritual knowing of our true nature underlying even the worst pain, I don’t dispute this. Many people “achieved” this.

But that doesn’t mean pain won’t come. It will. And even if nothing “unpleasant” ever happened to you ever again, I don’t know if I wanted that. I think that without pain, pleasure would kind of lost what it has to offer. Without up, there is no down, without cold, no warm. But I think we are on the same page.

The Church wants what is best and easiest for us. Unfortunately for me, I figured this out the hard way by having to question every teaching and understanding, and by searching for answers from many other walks of life, as opposed to simply having faith, hope, and love for God.

This is an assumption you cannot support with any evidence whatsoever. I know about charity work and everything, but I also know about child molesting priests and preaching against use of condoms in HIV stricken countries. While I agree that you may never logically attest about existence of what you think of as god, I don’t think that the same faith is needed when it comes to religious organization. I can very well say that The Church wants money and power over people and there is no way you can prove I’m lying. Not with its history you can’t.

For example, recognize that an eternal heavenly afterlife is necessary to fulfill the pinnacle purpose of living.

That is again a believe. Believe is YOU DON’T KNOW. Have you ever really admitted that believe is nothing more than not knowing and hoping something is true, but still not knowing? All your following deduction is based on not knowing. I don’t think that is how deduction works. You need premise that is bulletproof. Hope is not. What I’m saying needs 0,000% of believe.

If I said to you I believe in Zeus, would you give my faith credibility as yours? If not, why? You see, there never has been a point in history when it’s been decided: “Gods from Mount Olympus are just funny stories, whereas Biblical God is real”. They are the same.

Regarding Free Will, here are two concepts to consider:

1. Perhaps you are equating ‘what will we do?’ and 'what are we doing?

No man, I’m definitely not doing that. Please, don’t go into more depth than it’s needed to understand. Pick a color, pick a vegetable or food and a city. I’ll show you what I mean, it’s much easier.

1. Do you consider thoughts as an act of our will?

This is good. Of course I don’t. Do you think you are the thinker of your thoughts? To be able to pick thoughts that you think, you would have to be able to think them BEFORE you think them. How would that work? It’s nonsense.

Thoughts just appear, and feeling “I’m thinking” is once again stick to it. Don’t believe me, really really look. You have no more control over what your next thought will be than you have over what I’m writing. It feels 100% different, but it is not. I know you think I’m crazy, but it’s actually true and guess what? You didn’t pick this thought either.

What will your next thought be? Can you stop it before it appears in your head? You cannot. Can you decide what you want to think about next? Yes. But where did this decision came from and why did it appear in your head in the first place? You can honestly never know. If you are honest, you’re left with “I don’t know why I’m doing what I’m doing and why I’m thinking what I’m thinking”. It’s scary and counter intuitive to how most people live, but it’s true. Check it out for yourself, no need to believe me.

Looking forward to your reply, cheers mate! Have a nice day.

 

[jochoa]

Part I

To ask question “what is the purpose of living?” presumes there is someone separated that is living this life, entity that life is happening to.

My friend, know that it has been quite some time since I last enjoyed dialog on philosophy this much! Thank you very much for the excellent and fun discussion!
In consideration of determining purpose, please consider a few concepts:

1. According to your logic, I can determine the purpose of life of others that I am living through. For example, imagine the passionate parent of a young athlete. The parent ascribes purpose to the life of the child, and therefore, the events which occur in the child’s athletic career effect the quality of living of the passionate parent in ways.
2. Have you considered the option of determining purpose of living using semantics? Which yields:
   A. Purpose is defined as reason to do something. Therefore, the reason to be living is to live, and not die, and if one is dying, then one is not fulfilling the reason to be living or the purpose of living.
   B. In order to continue living, we have needs which must be fulfilled. This is the contentment you recognized all lives strive for, I also use the synonymous terms peace or freedom from disturbance.
   C. In human living, we have innumerable wants which we will attempt to fulfill. When we get what we want, we experience greater levels of happiness/contentment.
   D. Therefore, the pinnacle purpose of human living is to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace.
3. Also, according to your conclusion regarding free will and free thought: if we are unable to freely think and do, then it is impossible for us to determine a purpose in living. If it is truly impossible to determine purpose, then our lives are purposeless. In addition to being purposeless, something greater can’t exist because there is no objective means to determine value.

You never questioned if there is anyone inside your head or heart living your life or if life is just doing its thing and your mind is automatically sticking labels on it.

Sure I have. I once considered, “is God living through each one of us, or in better words, does God fulfill His purpose of living by living through each one of our lives?” After applying many different concepts of reasoning, I was able to determine that a god who fulfills purpose for living by living through others is incomplete, and not perfect love, and therefore, is not the one True God.

Just entertain the possibility that actions you feel you’re doing happen by themselves and then mind comes in and says “I did it”.

I am trying to entertain the possibility, but the act of thoughtfully planning and choosing my physical actions from a great database of options, as well as gaining new knowledge from the database of others’ experiences, to carefully dictate what I will physically do is too overpowering.
*Please know, I personally consider thinking to be an action of our will.

Without this seeming separation, there is only life, manifesting in different forms, like stars and galaxies, stones, river and living organisms as well, plant, animal or human being. I know it may seem very scary at first, it feels like there is no order and world must burn in chaos in five seconds.

It seems as though you equate existence with life. How do you define life? Also, do you consider any physical thing in existence to be non-living? Do you consider thoughts to be physical? If so, do you consider any thoughtful things in existence to be non-living?

Actually, when you see what I’m writing is true, there you’ll recognize it always has been true and everything worked just fine. Nothing happens when you see this, only perspective shifts. It has always been like that, nothing new is obtained.

In this scenario, what is the purpose of life?

I think this is kind of a fairytale. Maybe we’re on the same page, but we just articulate it differently.

I would definitely agree, that we are simply articulating our ideas differently, which is causing the challenges. Hopefully, we may reconcile and come to understand one another!

But that doesn’t mean pain won’t come. It will. And even if nothing “unpleasant” ever happened to you ever again, I don’t know if I wanted that. I think that without pain, pleasure would kind of lost what it has to offer. Without up, there is no down, without cold, no warm. But I think we are on the same page.

Here are a few concepts to consider:

1. I would say that we are definitely on the same page, but we are reading and translating from different languages!
2. Your declaration of, “I don’t know if I wanted that,” would go against your earlier statement of:

Every living organism wants to be as content as possible. So do I and so do ants.

Because being content as possible is being content forever. A life cannot get more content than never losing contentment.
3. Try to recognize that not wanting to never experience pain, can be the same as stating, “not wanting to suffer.” Given your declaration of, “I don’t know if I want that,”, are you declaring that you want to suffer?

My great friend,
Thank you very much for such excellent food for thought! You are greatly helping me grow in faith, wisdom, perspective, and knowledge! I will try to share part two by morning. I hope you have a great day!