Criteria for judging the efficacy of The Mass / a Mass

[Aramis]

To hire a personal chaplain requires the bishop’s permission.

The OF requirement for participation in the responses and for the vernacular is (take your pick) a byzantification or an antiquarianism. Perhaps both.

Communion in the hand is (again, take your pick) an Armenianization, Chaldeanization/Assyrianization, or an extreme antiquarianism.

The requirements for the mass, as Cluny pointed out, are
Valid Matter
intent to confect
(per the councils) a valid consecration with the institution narrative and an epiclesis*
a valid minister (priest or bishop)**

• The current roman canon’s epiclesis is weak, but present, using a synonym for the Holy Spirit. The Anaphora of Addai and Mari has an implicit institution narrative, but no “this is my body”/“This is my blood”… In the case of OF EP1, it’s several paragraphs in length… as shown here; the EF epiclesis includes an explicit invocation, “Veni, Sanctificator omnipotens aeterne Deus: et bene dic hoc sacrificum tuo sancto nomini praeparatum.” (copied from here
  ** in the earliest years of the church, only bishops were permitted to say the divine liturgies…

 

[Cluny]

I don’t know if the prayer* Veni, Sanctifcator* constitutes an Epiclesis in the sense that it does in the Eastern liturgies, but I’ll let others argue that.

It is clear to anyone with two wits to clap together, however, that the Anaphora of Addai and Mari clearly intends to accomplish the Mystery of the Eurcharist.

And if a priest goes to the trouble of vesting, setting up the altar, and saying the prayers of the Mass, intention to confect the Eucharist is presumed, lacking positive evidence to the contrary.

 

[Shin]

The Solemn High Mass

The Importance of the Liturgy in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

Treats how serious liturgical abuse is, what determines how efficacious a mass is, our duties, etc.

The people lose graces the less glory given God in the mass, the more sins committed in the mass, the more sins are committed in the world. The mass is on the threshold of Heaven. What happens at the mass literally determines the fate of the entire world.

There’re are further sermons on these topics as well, that discuss the different types of sacrifice at the mass.

A real primer on the reality of the spiritual life and its effects on our souls through the Communion of Saints.

 

[Aramis]

I don’t know if the prayer* Veni, Sanctifcator* constitutes an Epiclesis in the sense that it does in the Eastern liturgies, but I’ll let others argue that.

It is clear to anyone with two wits to clap together, however, that the Anaphora of Addai and Mari clearly intends to accomplish the Mystery of the Eurcharist.

And if a priest goes to the trouble of vesting, setting up the altar, and saying the prayers of the Mass, intention to confect the Eucharist is presumed, lacking positive evidence to the contrary.

Not having examined the text of Addai and Mari in a language I can grok, I can’t speak to it, other than the Vatican stated that its institution narrative is sufficiently strong that the lack of the literal words of institution being spoken in persona Christi is not impediment to its validity.

The whole block beginning with the Veni, Sanctificator is an extended invocation of the Holy Spirit. It literally dances around the issue, in both the EF and the OF EP I…

OF EP II is mercifully blunt about the epiclesis:
Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
EP III is much longer an epiclesis, but no less blunt.

 

[Cluny]

The Solemn High Mass

The Importance of the Liturgy in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

Treats how serious liturgical abuse is, what determines how efficacious a mass is, our duties, etc.

The people lose graces the less glory given God in the mass, the more sins committed in the mass, the more sins are committed in the world. The mass is on the threshold of Heaven. What happens at the mass literally determines the fate of the entire world.

There’re are further sermons on these topics as well, that discuss the different types of sacrifice at the mass.

A real primer on the reality of the spiritual life and its effects on our souls through the Communion of Saints.

Shin, I really would like to hear these sermons, but they won’t play on my computer (Mac G4 with cable modem connection.)

I stand by what I said before: One mass’s efficacy is the same as the next mass’s efficacy (assuming the validity of both), because you don’t have different degrees of “infinite value.”

If someone doesn’t get all the blessings he should from a mass, it’s the person’s own fault.

And while one mass is the same as the next mass, it does not follow that all sermons are equally accurate.

 

[Shin]

Have you tried downloading them and playing them in a separate player? I’m sorry I just assumed everyone’s computer could play mp3s these days. Every once in awhile I wish I could transcribe these things but I am having technical difficulties on -that- end with the dictation software, and have so far been unable to do so.

I’ve put this very poorly compared to the audio tapes. I’d be glad to try to help you get your player set up if I can. Benedice I pray.

Thanks for the heads up by the way. I recall seeing this thread when it first started, then shelving it in my mind with a ‘Come back to it later after it’s talked out for a bit and see what happened and I am better prepared to contribute.’ But it looks like I forgot about it, and one can’t sort matters out forever or one never accomplishes anything.

Okay, let’s talk about several factors here…

First the value of the Sacrifice is infinite. . . But the reception by the world and mankind of that infinite value is not. It varies.

The mass is a revisiting of Calvary. . . how we behave at it, either pleases God or displeases God, and so disposes Him to distribute or withhold the graces of the mass. I have read in the past that it is possible to go to mass in mortal sin and displease God, and cause even worse punishment for your soul. Just as it is possible to have a sacrilegious Communion – how we behave at mass matters.

The value of the sacrifice, for us all varies, because it depends on our merit before God, our interior disposition – how much glory we give to God by properly joining with His will at the mass, or defying it. It varies because of interior disposition, it varies because of our deeds and the quality of our worship and virtue, it varies because of our sins and their qualities. . .etc.

It’s the practical effect, not the base value we’re talking about here.

The general rule the sermons describe well is that the closer one gets to God’s ineffable holiness, the greater the rewards and the greater the punishments for sin. As a general rule in life, the holier you are, what were once small sins become mortal sins in the saints, because you are closer to God, know better, have greater responsibility… each of these factors is a -separate- factor in determining the virtue of your actions and the vice of your actions. . .

But we will focus on the factor of ‘the closer to God, the greater the responsibility’. . . What does this mean? In the Old Testament we have a great deal of number of models for our liturgical worship and the principles involved in liturgical worship.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites are carrying the Ark of the Covenant. . at one time, the Ark appears to be about to slip and fall to the ground, so that one of the Israelites reaches up to steady it. He is immediately struck dead by God. He had good intentions, his deed appears to us to be good – but the Ark is holy, he was forbidden to touch it. The Ark was the close presence of God. .

There are other models of liturgical worship… Open up the Bible and read about how the Levites have to behave. These are our models, and our models of both the rewards, restrictions and punishments. The main difference is simply God punishes more often with spiritual death rather than what was punished clearly with physical death so we understood its gravity in the Old Testament.

For a priest, liturgical abuse, deliberately committed is a mortal sin. Involuntary mistakes, that proceed from other faults, small errors, are venial sins. This is the law of the Church and of God. After mass a priest says prayers to gain forgiveness for these faults.

What the priest does in the mass effects how much grace the parishioners at the mass and the world receives from the mass, as to a lesser extent what the parishioners do.

 

[Shin]

Continued… .

If the parishioners sin before God in the mass, they are sinning ‘to his face’, in the presence of His direct holiness. It is more sinful. It is simple to understand this. . If we were to bring the Eucharist into our homes, and commit mortal sin in front of it, it is different if we do it without the Eucharist.

If Jesus Christ in the flesh is standing before you in your home, His presence is of a different level than if He is only present to the lesser extent that is normal.

But the mass is an even holier time than Eucharistic adoration outside of mass. It is the holiest event, the holiest time, the holiest sacrifice on Earth. In other words, it is the closest we ever come to God in an event in this life. We may increase our personal holiness, and so forth – but still, if we were to go to mass, we would be closer to God by being there at that event, Calvary.

If Jesus Christ in the flesh is being crucified upon Calvary before you, His presence is of a different level than if He is only present to the lesser extent that is normal.

Every single thing is magnified at the mass. Every virtue, every vice, because we are in the direct presence of God. And we are in the direct presence of God in the most important time, the most important sacrifice in the all Creation.

Involuntary sin, not directly willed by us, but still due to our vices, is objectively sinful to God, and offensive to Him. In the direct presence of God this vice is all the more magnified. Every motion of the will, our preparation before mass, how we proceed after. . effects the graces we gain from mass.

Or the vices we cause at it. We can cause vice at mass? Yes, the Communion of Saints is one where our faults drag down the rest of humanity as well as lift it up. When we fail to do our duties, or worse, sin, it is the worse for all the rest of the Body of Christ and the world.

We should instinctively know the things that I have related regarding closeness to God… the closer you are to God… the more direct His presence… the more we tremble the more we are careful and cautious naturally.

It is like visiting a king, we know to be put on our best behavior. But this is the King of all creation. He loves us, and yet His standards are perfect.

Another principle is that when we come to Mass we are to offer sacrifice in the way God desires us to offer sacrifice, not in the way we desire. If I were to come into your home, a stranger, and say, “Well let’s have dinner tonight. I think I’ll order for us, worm souffle, monkey brains, and chili con carne,” the average person would be quite offended. Why? Because I had not shown any care or respect for what that person wanted to have for dinnner.

Well God tells us how He desires the mass to be done. It’s called the rubrics. We don’t have the authority to change this, and God is not listening for our good ideas and wanting our suggestions. He wants us to abide by the law. Any infraction matters. Our adherence matters. Immensely.

The mass is the closest we get to Heaven on this side of Earth. We either repeat original sin before God’s face, saying, “I will do what I want to do.” like Adam and Eve, at mass, or we do what God wants to do and sacrifice our own wills in holy obedience.

That is the only sacrifice that is pleasing to God.

 

[EasterJoy]

…The general rule the sermons describe well is that the closer one gets to God’s ineffable holiness, the greater the rewards and the greater the punishments for sin. As a general rule in life, the holier you are, what were once small sins become mortal sins in the saints, because you are closer to God, know better, have greater responsibility… each of these factors is a -separate- factor in determining the virtue of your actions and the vice of your actions…

Where, pray tell, did someone get the idea that an act whose matter is not objectively grave can become a mortal sin because the person who committed it was essentially too intimate with God? If that were so, sanctity would be something to be feared, as if we could become an Icarus of grace, one who perished by daring to go too close to the sun. Never have I heard that the Church taught anything remotely like that. I think it is a total fabrication, and a damaging one at that. Fear of the Lord does not involve terror.

Yes, culpablitily is lessened if one does not appreciate the gravity of the action. It does not logically follow that a sinful act that is not objectively grave becomes grave just by the fact that one fully appreciates the ugliness that even the most venial of sins has.

Important points are not better made by using hyperbole and passing it off as the faith.

Let us never forget that at Mass we enter into the Holy Sacrifice in which Our Lord prayed, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” He was talking, of course, of people who were quite aware of the gravity of their murderous actions. This was not a Sacrifice that God willed to make into an avenue for taking prisoners for Hell.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the font of mercy for the whole world. Let us not make it out to be a ritual of the kind the pagans had, where they imagined that it was the holiness of their own actions that appeased wrathful and blood-thirsty divinities, divinities who were on the lookout to punish any slight, whether real or imagined.

Rather, let us root our desire for total obedience in a love that would seek to avoid every kind of offense against holiness, not because we fear retribution, but because grace leads us to love that which is good and to hate anything that would separate us from His will. For is it not true, that even if we were assured that he would eventually forgive our every transgression, that our transgressions would still carry their own punishment, since we suffer from any act which separates us even momentarily from Him? Even if we could be assured of a cure, which of us would put our hands in fire? Some people don’t see this, but their blindness does not make it less true.

 

[Cluny]

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the font of mercy for the whole world. Let us not make it out to be a ritual of the kind the pagans had, where they imagined that it was the holiness of their own actions that appeased wrathful and blood-thirsty divinities, divinities who were on the lookout to punish any slight, whether real or imagined.

Rather, let us root our desire for total obedience in a love that would seek to avoid every kind of offense against holiness, not because we fear retribution, but because grace leads us to love that which is good and to hate anything that would separate us from His will.

Amen to this!

 

[Cat]

Where, pray tell, did someone get the idea that an act whose matter is not objectively grave can become a mortal sin because the person who committed it was essentially too intimate with God? If that were so, sanctity would be something to be feared, as if we could become an Icarus of grace, one who perished by daring to go too close to the sun. Never have I heard that the Church taught anything remotely like that. I think it is a total fabrication, and a damaging one at that. Fear of the Lord does not involve terror.

Yes, culpablitily is lessened if one does not appreciate the gravity of the action. It does not logically follow that a sinful act that is not objectively grave becomes grave just by the fact that one fully appreciates the ugliness that even the most venial of sins has.

Important points are not better made by using hyperbole and passing it off as the faith.

Let us never forget that at Mass we enter into the Holy Sacrifice in which Our Lord prayed, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” He was talking, of course, of people who were quite aware of the gravity of their murderous actions. This was not a Sacrifice that God willed to make into an avenue for taking prisoners for Hell.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the font of mercy for the whole world. Let us not make it out to be a ritual of the kind the pagans had, where they imagined that it was the holiness of their own actions that appeased wrathful and blood-thirsty divinities, divinities who were on the lookout to punish any slight, whether real or imagined.

Rather, let us root our desire for total obedience in a love that would seek to avoid every kind of offense against holiness, not because we fear retribution, but because grace leads us to love that which is good and to hate anything that would separate us from His will. For is it not true, that even if we were assured that he would eventually forgive our every transgression, that our transgressions would still carry their own punishment, since we suffer from any act which separates us even momentarily from Him? Even if we could be assured of a cure, which of us would put our hands in fire? Some people don’t see this, but their blindness does not make it less true.

This is beautiful. Thank you.

 

[Cat]

Another principle is that when we come to Mass we are to offer sacrifice in the way God desires us to offer sacrifice, not in the way we desire. If I were to come into your home, a stranger, and say, “Well let’s have dinner tonight. I think I’ll order for us, worm souffle, monkey brains, and chili con carne,” the average person would be quite offended. Why? Because I had not shown any care or respect for what that person wanted to have for dinnner.

Well God tells us how He desires the mass to be done. It’s called the rubrics. We don’t have the authority to change this, and God is not listening for our good ideas and wanting our suggestions. He wants us to abide by the law. Any infraction matters. Our adherence matters. Immensely.

The mass is the closest we get to Heaven on this side of Earth. We either repeat original sin before God’s face, saying, “I will do what I want to do.” like Adam and Eve, at mass, or we do what God wants to do and sacrifice our own wills in holy obedience.

That is the only sacrifice that is pleasing to God.

I agree entirely with this. The rubrics are our “protection” against abuses.

And many of the things that you and others complain about (e.g., modern music, vernacular, Communion standing and in the Hand, women lectors, guitars and pianos, etc.etc. etc.) do NOT violate the rubrics. And since the rubrics are adhered to, that means that the “efficacy of the Mass” is strong.

So we’re all cool here, OK?

 

[Auntie_M]

I have not posted in quite a while but, nothing has changed.

The debate goes on…and on

Does one “feel” more “holy” going to the EF or the OF???

Christ spoke of “people” who need outward “signs” to believe, (or “feel” holy)

But that is just what they really are. “signs” Holiness is a personal experience between us and our Lord. It comes from a child like faith that what He says He means.

If Mary tells us “Do what He says” referring to Christ, and Peter is the vicar of Christ. Shouldn’t we “do what he says also?” Would we question Christ?

If Christ walked the earth today. Would he be pleased with all this “my way is better than your way” “We are right and you are wrong”. I think we had that same thing going on since His time. The Pharisee and Saducees, the Jews and Gentiles…

Make a conscious decision to have your mind totally on Christ when you walk into a mass and I’ll just bet, you won’t find near as much fault in any mass you attend.

We all need to ask this one question of ourselves?
If the mass was taken away altogether, would we "lose the faith". Is it the mass that keeps us straight, or is it the grace of God?:)

 

[Cat]

I have not posted in quite a while but, nothing has changed.

The debate goes on…and on

Does one “feel” more “holy” going to the EF or the OF???

Christ spoke of “people” who need outward “signs” to believe, (or “feel” holy)

But that is just what they really are. “signs” Holiness is a personal experience between us and our Lord. It comes from a child like faith that what He says He means.

If Mary tells us “Do what He says” referring to Christ, and Peter is the vicar of Christ. Shouldn’t we “do what he says also?” Would we question Christ?

If Christ walked the earth today. Would he be pleased with all this “my way is better than your way” “We are right and you are wrong”. I think we had that same thing going on since His time. The Pharisee and Saducees, the Jews and Gentiles…

Make a conscious decision to have your mind totally on Christ when you walk into a mass and I’ll just bet, you won’t find near as much fault in any mass you attend.

We all need to ask this one question of ourselves?

   If the mass was taken away altogether, would we "lose the faith". Is it the mass that keeps us straight, or is it the grace of God?:)

Hi, Auntie M!

This is a very nice post. I especially like the paragraph that I bolded, above. Thank you.

 

[Cluny]

<<The Solemn High Mass

The Importance of the Liturgy in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass>>

Shin, I could not get the first to play at all, even after downloading it.

The second did, and there were some serious errors in it.

I passed it on to a devout monk I know who will write his own critique.

But I will say a few things:

1. NONE of the ceremonies or rubrics or even texts of the Eucharist in ANY rite of the Church (except possibly Byzantine St. James) came down from heaven.
2. Aaron and the other High Priests of Israel were never the “new Adam.” Only Christ is the New Adam.
3. There was a pagan notion that unless their rites were carried out just so, the deities would get very angry. This is not Christianity.
4. For the most part, the Priest was using a childishly literal interpretation of the Bible.
5. If this sermon was delivered during Mass, he himself committed a liturgical abuse by adding his own prayer at the end of the sermon.

 

[Shin]

<<The Solemn High Mass

1. NONE of the ceremonies or rubrics or even texts of the Eucharist in ANY rite of the Church (except possibly Byzantine St. James) came down from heaven.
2. Aaron and the other High Priests of Israel were never the “new Adam.” Only Christ is the New Adam.
3. There was a pagan notion that unless their rites were carried out just so, the deities would get very angry. This is not Christianity.
4. For the most part, the Priest was using a childishly literal interpretation of the Bible.
5. If this sermon was delivered during Mass, he himself committed a liturgical abuse by adding his own prayer at the end of the sermon.

1. The Lord works through His Church and gives us His liturgy.
2. The priests are in persona Christi, they are the ‘new Adam’.
3. Most of these quick objections you put forth would’ve been solved if you’d read the scriptures relating to these matters, and the Levites. Wherein you would find out, that God punishes small deviations strongly when the situation is a very holy one.

It is the difference between spilling tea on yourself at your desk, and spilling tea on the Queen of England, in full court. One is going to cost you more than the other.

1. The priest is speaking like the saints, who I have read a great deal of. Complain to them. But they’re up there, and you are down here.
2. I have yet to see evidence that including a prayer in your sermon during mass is a liturgical abuse. Can we call these all quick cheap shots to someone with a negative reaction to the sermon rather than taking it seriously and be done with it?

Truly?

 

[EasterJoy]

The priest is speaking like the saints, who I have read a great deal of. Complain to them. But they’re up there, and you are down here…

Can we call these all quick cheap shots to someone with a negative reaction to the sermon rather than taking it seriously and be done with it?

Truly?

Unless I’m mistaken, you and this priest are still down here, too, and neither of you are the only ones among us who have read the writings of the saints. Besides, I am inclined to believe that perhaps your version of what this priest said is not in fact what he meant. In the case of the objections I have made, I certainly don’t believe the saints meant anything like what I interpreted your post to be saying.

For instance: the saints will speak of it being a grave matter for a priest to commit a sin that would be venial in another, because of the importance of his example. This use of the word “grave” does not mean the priest who commits a venial sin in public has actually committed a mortal sin! Rather, it means that the results of his venial sin are far more serious and far-reaching than the venial sins of others.

To point this out, by the way, is not a cheap shot. We have a duty to object when we think the truth is being distorted, particularly in a forum where non-Catholics might come to form their views of our faith.

If our objections are incorrect, then point out where that is so, and perhaps we can respond, and the matter might be clarified until we are all on the same page as to how to say what we probably all meant in the first place. It is called a discussion, and it is a useful exercise.

Discussing the importance of our cooperation in manifesting the infinite value of every Mass is a discussion worth having over and over and over again. There is such a delicate balance to be struck between erring on the side of the relative unimportance of our contributions on one hand and their real importance on the other, particularly with regards to the personal contribution of the priest. It is a discussion that needs a lot of mutual charity and patience, though. We have to keep the desired end in mind, after all. That is, of course, an ever-increasing obedience to God, growth in every grace, and mutual advancement towards eternal life. After all, if we all get our hearts’ desires, we’re going to first have to learn how to spend a great deal of time together in charitable agreement! Like eternity. If that isn’t a nice thought, our charity needs to grow accordingly.

I, unfortunately, have to bow out of the discussion. If you replay to my post, don’t take my silence to mean anything.

 

[Shin]

I too am here below, and the priest. I am a sinner… but I want to be good and not do my own will… So if we want to be as certain as possible, that our words are not our words, but the words the Lord gives us, the truth, we will say what Christ has said, and what His messengers have said – The saints. Because they have completed the journey, we only aspire to make.

In this way, we keep ourselves from putting in what is of ourselves and not of God. We adhere to the truth and not our own imaginings and preferences. We refer to God, and not to Adam and Eve, and their counselor.

Since one of the sermons wouldn’t work for one person, this one should help too:

Sacred Rites of the Old Testament

This one above is very important! It directly addresses what has been spoken about so far, small infractions. So if you want to learn more about this, if you disagree and want evidence, here it is above. Do not approach it with a contrary spirit, but one open to learning whatever God may have to teach – not your own desires. Pray before listening. There is much holy scripture in this.

Today many people inform us that love is not a feeling, but a deed. This is so very true.

We only have to read the scriptures to find that the Love that God calls us for, is a love in deed, of obedience to His will, not a love of feelings where we do our own will, and make our own god, an idol.

So it should not be surprising that this call of love is particularly clear in the mass. That we do His will, and not our own. Far from it, what else is sacrifice? But to make our will, His will.

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart: And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising. And thou shalt bind them as a sign on thy hand, and they shall be and shall move between thy eyes. And thou shalt write them in the entry, and on the doors of thy house.

Deuteronomy 6:5-9

But because the Lord hath loved you, and hath kept his oath, which he swore to your fathers: and hath brought you out with a strong hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, out of the hand of Pharaoh the king of Egypt. And thou shalt know that the Lord thy God, he is a strong and faithful God, keeping his covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments, unto a thousand generations: And repaying forthwith them that hate him, so as to destroy them, without further delay immediately rendering to them what they deserve. Keep therefore the precepts and ceremonies and judgments, which I command thee this day to do.

Deuteronomy 7:8-11

And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but that thou fear the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways, and love him, and serve the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul: And keep the commandments of the Lord, and his ceremonies, which I command thee this day, that it may be well with thee.

Deuteronomy 10:12-13

See also: Deuteronomy 11:13-23, 13:1-5, 30:15-20

But, O my God, how is it that so many priests who every morning feed on this heavenly bread, instead of burning with divine love, are seen to be always more attached to the world, and go always to the altar with the very same wilful venial sins? All proceeds from this, that they go to say Mass without the intention and the desire of becoming saints, or else for interested motives, or by way of routine. And therefore they always commit the same faults; and so they approach their death, and go to give an account to Jesus Christ of the lukewarm and disorderly way in which their whole priestly life was passed.

O priest! if you are one of these, consider that this heavenly bread will not help you to become a saint, but will, through your own fault, make you more guilty be fore the divine tribunal. Amend your life; consider that death is nigh. Consider those attachments and those faults that hinder your progress in the divine love, and do away with them. Remember that you are a priest; remember that God has chosen you for his favorite, and that he could not have made you greater.

• St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori