Criticism of beauty in the Church

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I was talking to a friend earlier, and we got talking about the Liturgy and beauty. I had sent images of Cardinal Burke and Pius XII’s coronation as an example.

My friend was quite opposed to what he described as “pompous”. I’ll provide an outline of each one’s main points. The question will follow that.

In favour (me)
  • God is perfectly holy. He is holiness itself. Within the Liturgy, this all-holy God comes among us bodily in the Eucharist: The King of the Universe is manifest. Therefore, we should give Him our very best, which is why churches traditionally have lots of gold and fine art.
  • Beautiful churches proclaim God’s holiness to the world. They are an expression of our Faith, indeed, they are a manifestation of good works. And faith without works is dead.
In opposition
  • The money used to build ostentatious churches is best used to help the poor. The time and effort invested is best used for preaching (Acts 20:20)
  • How does it help the poor for the Pope to wear an expensive tiara, for Bishops to wear precious mitres and vestments? A Bishop is different from God.
Are there any Scriptural examples that one could use to justify the traditional Catholic practice of lavishing churches? What about point no. 2?
 
You say: “we should give Him our very best, which is why churches traditionally have lots of gold and fine art.”…
But you are interpreting your “best” as gold and fine art; I wouldn’t interpret “best” that way.
A church doesn’t need fine art and gold to be considered “beautiful”. Can they not be beautiful by the souls and love of the people inside, instead?
Good job you say that, I forgot to mention it in the post. My friend said the exact same thing.
 
I am in more agreement with the second view…that the millions of dollars used for gold and fine art would be much better used to help feed, clothe, heal, and shelter people.
If the religion, mass, and sacraments themselves are the beauty, why would external adornments be needed? Jesus didn’t need any of it. He walked around in simple robes and sandals it seems.
You say: “we should give Him our very best, which is why churches traditionally have lots of gold and fine art.”…
But you are interpreting your “best” as gold and fine art; I wouldn’t interpret “best” that way.
A church doesn’t need fine art and gold to be considered “beautiful”. Can they not be beautiful by the souls and love of the people inside, instead?
The pope himself is not partaking in all the ostentatious clothing and the extravagant Vatican digs offered to him.

.
I think it may be argued that in a particular case, this or that money is better spent on the poor than on a church’s decorations or whatever. However, it is exceedingly clear in Scripture and the Church’s practice that it is not wrong, or bad, or even slightly incorrect to spend money, even lots and lots of money, on church decorations, vestments, etc. So we can certainly say, “I think this money is better spent here rather than there,” but I don’t think it’s ever possible to make a principle and say, “It is always better to spend money on the poor than on building beautiful churches.”

Secondly, I think this view (your post) assumes that we are able to receive the beauty of God, which is true to a limited extent.

However, our puny human minds are not capable of perceiving the objective beauty very well. I say that with firm conviction and it’s not a judgement about someone’s intellect or whatever, it’s just that we are human and are literally incapable of receiving/perceiving/containing the beauty of God except in extremely small “amounts.” God is infinite, we are finite creatures. These external things are not intrinsic to the Mass, no, but they are “helps,” if you understand what I mean. We may say that we don’t need this or that particular physical thing even, but we can’t make a principle and say, “Gut the church, we don’t need any physicality,” because we most certainly, definitely do.

Certainly, they can be considered beautiful by the souls and love of the people inside. But… this isn’t the whole picture. Our God is incarnational. He made the world good, even though because of us there is now evil in it. He gave us meaty bodies with which to interface in the world.

We humans need symbols, materiel, water, touchable feelable smellable tasteable stuff, textures, flavors, spit, salt, scents, melodious sounds, flickery lights, slick oil, beautiful statues. We need these things to remain sane and because the physical universe is the universe God placed us in. I sometimes think that if some people had their way, all we humans would be is brains sitting in sealed jars with electrodes attached to our brains stimulating us. I don’t think you think that, but there is an ideology which, if you take it to its logical end, that could be a result.

Now, this has not a whole lot to do with simplicity vs ostentation. It is completely legitimate to have a simple church, like a Benedictine monastery chapel, for example. But even these simple churches, like all, are quite expensive to build. Heck, some of the “simplest” structures in recent history have been hellishly expensive. And the Pope can wear whatever he wants and that is his prerogative. He may not be wearing a mozzetta but he is also not walking around in a tank top and shorts on the one hand, or a seamless plastic bodysuit laser cut from space-age materials on the other hand.

Look at some early Roman churches. They are, very often, but not always, quite simple structures. But there is a gravity, a giantness combined with a lightness, a diversity of artistic forms, different materials which stimulate the senses. We humans are not insensate beings. We need to be stimulated in the physical, touchable world.

What I don’t like about this conversation is a certain one-sidedness that is present. There are too many “wingers” if you understand what I mean. Either churches MUST be extravagant and have golden accents everywhere and be penny-pinchers when it comes to the poor OR churches MUST look like bo-dump structures or either dull exposed steel beam abstract white warehouses pathologically afraid of architectural tradition and spend all their money on the poor. Well… why not do both? Is it not possible to both help the poor and build beautiful physical structures? When did this conversation become so one-sided?

One way of managing this, I think, is the abandonment of the idea that when a church is built it must be finished. Maybe the art and stuff inside a church will add another 1/3 to the costs of building it. Well, let’s recover what was done in earlier centuries: build a noble building and if money is an issue, just decorate the sanctuary area. Paint and give a little decoration to the rest of the building so it doesn’t look unfinished, but make it a point to add something else every, let’s say, 5-10 years. A statue here, a painting there. It won’t hurt. In fact this can be a great way of managing money and allowing parishioners to feel something of ownership of the building.
 
Cliff’s Notes version:

balance
balance
balance
balance
balance
 
What is beauty? Your version and mine may differ greatly. One person may see beauty in the perfection of line and form and find overly ornate works of art as ostentatious and ugly. I’ve been in some of the great cathedrals of the world, but the church I found most beautiful was a very unadorned one with a floor-to-ceiling window on either side of the altar with a view of the beautiful foot hills, God’s creation, more beautiful than anything man can create.

I think Jesus came down to earth as a poor carpenter. The Bible contains about 200 times that He spoke of the poor. It’s good to give our best to God but there are many ways to do that.
 
I am in more agreement with the second view…that the millions of dollars used for gold and fine art would be much better used to help feed, clothe, heal, and shelter people.
If the religion, mass, and sacraments themselves are the beauty, why would external adornments be needed? Jesus didn’t need any of it. He walked around in simple robes and sandals it seems.
You say: “we should give Him our very best, which is why churches traditionally have lots of gold and fine art.”…
But you are interpreting your “best” as gold and fine art; I wouldn’t interpret “best” that way.
A church doesn’t need fine art and gold to be considered “beautiful”. Can they not be beautiful by the souls and love of the people inside, instead?
The pope himself is not partaking in all the ostentatious clothing and the extravagant Vatican digs offered to him.

.
There is a passage from the Old Testament (I forget the book but it’s one of the last ones) in which God reproaches His people for not giving him glory in the Temple - for using non-precious materials etc etc. Moreover, God instructed Solomon to build the Temple and he was very precise in his instructions: a lot of gold was to be used! Did Solomon somehow neglect the poor by doing so? Not at all. He was giving glory to God as He himself commanded Him to. Given that God’s Nature is unchanging, why do you think God doesn’t want us to glorify Him in the same way in our times?

Now consider Jesus’ life. He welcomed Mary Magdalen’s ointment with precious perfume. He was buried in a luxurious tomb. The Three Kings adored Him by presenting him gifts of GOLD, frankincense, and myrrh - all considered luxurious elements during his time. He did not refuse these gifts. On the contrary, when he had the chance to do so, he welcomed them.

Shouldn’t Jesus - present in the Blessed Sacrament - be honoured in the same way? The fact that Jesus came to earth as a poor carpenter was an act of God to teach detachment from earthly things and to dispel the notion that God’s blessing is measurable in material goods, a notion that was somewhat prevalent at the time.
Mystic Saints who have had a glimpse of Heaven describe it as filled with precious stones and golden buildings. In His infinite power, couldn’t God pour down these precious materials on Africa, allowing its people to sell them and ameliorate their living conditions as a consequence? No, because what is God’s is God’s, and what is man’s is man’s.
The Church’s liturgical beauty and material goods are there for us to give glory to God and give His people a glimpse of His infinite Majesty, hardened as we are in our hearts. The Church’s material wealth is of God, not of man.

Plus, if the Church sold all its wealth it wouldn’t, in of itself, help to decrease poverty in the long run. As Jesus said, the poor will always be here. It is our duty to help them as much as we can, and they give us an opportunity to be holy through the corporal works of mercy.
 
I am in more agreement with the second view…that the millions of dollars used for gold and fine art would be much better used to help feed, clothe, heal, and shelter people.
If the religion, mass, and sacraments themselves are the beauty, why would external adornments be needed? Jesus didn’t need any of it. He walked around in simple robes and sandals it seems.
You say: “we should give Him our very best, which is why churches traditionally have lots of gold and fine art.”…
But you are interpreting your “best” as gold and fine art; I wouldn’t interpret “best” that way.
A church doesn’t need fine art and gold to be considered “beautiful”. Can they not be beautiful by the souls and love of the people inside, instead?
The pope himself is not partaking in all the ostentatious clothing and the extravagant Vatican digs offered to him.

.
This is a debate that pops up all the time and takes such simplistic, or binary tones by the critics of the Catholic Church.

First of all, God commanded the Jews to make some very ornate structures! The Temple in Jerusalem, the Ark of the Covenant, Moses staff. Also in the book of Revelation, we see the jewels that cover the new heaven or new earth. Would these people who argue about decorations in churches argue with God about the Temple and Ark of the Covenant. You could argue that it was acceptable because God wanted it that way. But the point is that decoration is NOT necessarily wrong!

How would these same people feel if you told them to just live in simple log cabins, don’t build fancy civic buildings, sell all the art in the Louvre or British Museum and give it to the poor? The argument is specious! Christ even told Jude he was wrong when he complained about Mary covering Christs feet in very expensive oil! Judas wasn’t concerned about the poor and neither are most of these people who complain about decorated Catholic churches. I don’t hear these same people making the argument about Anglican , Orthodox or other ornate houses of worship , or civil buildings or even their own homes. How many people live in homes with bare walls, no ornaments on their wooden only furniture, live without the latest video devices and ride bicycles when they don’t need a car.

So, God does not necessarily oppose lavish decoration for His sake, and Christ did not necessarily oppose spending excessively on Him either. So the question is , when would it be appropriate to do so and to what extent? I don’t know the answer exactly. But it does seem safe to say that we can and should balance our expressions of love for our Lord between beauty and care for others, and not do over the other. Beauty , truth and love are ALL signs of God and point to Him. If we are so acetic we reject beauty in all our endeavors, we cease to speak about God in one way which speaks to many many people, who may not see God in truth or even love. And that love can and should be expressed in beauty of architecture , garment s and celebration but balanced with the needs of the day, including the poor.

It is a mistake and historical error to believe that all the ornate Catholic Churches in the world were all built excluding the care of the poor! Many of the poor contributed what little they had to help in the construction of the ornate and beautiful! They were willing participants in and beneficiaries of the beauty they helped create!

It all comes down to balance. And I wrote this before another poster wrote “balance, balance, balance, balance”. It is clear, that balance is important! And to outright reject beauty and the ornate in favor of the poor or other seemingly important issues is just as much a sin as to spend lavishly to the exclusion of the poor.
 
I agree with the rest of the posters about balance, and I also think it’s prudent to mention that the Catholic Church is one of the most charitable organizations on the planet. So, it is quite natural that churches are beautiful on the interior when one considers what they do for the external world. Also, I tend to think of it in this way: Jesus abides in the tabernacle, so is it not essential that he be afforded the splendor due to a king?
 
The OP does not indicate the religion or faith the person critising the Catholic Church, which can make it hard to find a starting point, but I will do my best. The Bible quote is odd as it doesn’t seem to hold water for that particular debate as it is Paul telling people what he has done and that compelled by the Spirit he is going to Jerusalem. It seems a very limited basis for a discussion.

God does not disdain beauty, otherwise why would he have instructed the Israelites to build the Ark of the Covenant out of the finest and most expensive metals and Gold? And why did He instruct them to make “two cherubim* of beaten gold for the two ends of the cover.” (Exodus 25). And why are more than 3 chapters devoted to the detail of the materials and workmanship (Exodus 25, 26 and 27)

John 12 v5-8 “Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days’ wages and given to the poor?” He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions. So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.” Jesus didn’t tell the woman to buy cheaper oil or to give money or food to the poor.

Father Barron has an interesting video on evangelising through the beautiful (youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=imMdNHEoxrY). He quotes someone (I cannot spell the name) who said the beautiful seizes you; it changes you, calls you and then you go out and tell people about it. The spiritually and materially poor can view great works of art and beauty for free and experience the beauty of the Sacraments.

Most of the beauty in our churches were donated by parishioners (many who were poor) to bring beauty to feed their souls and the souls of those who come after them? Most of the gold in our churches tend to be gold coloured paint, our statues are plaster cast and our icons are prints, yet many see the beauty of the image, not realising that the materials are cheap. The value is in the spiritual inspiration the image can have in drawing people to Christ. The universal church is founded by the greatest giver of all, Jesus, and through the centuries it has given the world teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors, spiritual healers, musicians, martyrs, saints, artists as well as money. It gives millions each day to provide food, shelter, clothing, tools, seeds, education, medicine etc. to the materially poor. We do spend the money on preaching but not the “verbal preach at”, but through giving beauty, hope, love and money.

On the clothing point, try Exodus 28. Our clergy (even the Pope) do not wear such fine garments. And to counter any arguments of “that was the old covenant, Jesus brought a new covenant”, that is true but Jesus was fulfilling the covenant. He built on earlier covenants, enabling the whole world to have one salvation (and salvation history).

I hope this helps a little.
 
The Jewish tradition is you offer to God the BEST. The poor you will have always with you, Judas also made noises about money being misspent, but rather he wanted it for himself. Don’t begrudge God what is rightfully His.
 
There is a passage from the Old Testament (I forget the book but it’s one of the last ones) in which God reproaches His people for not giving him glory in the Temple - for using non-precious materials etc etc. Moreover, God instructed Solomon to build the Temple and he was very precise in his instructions: a lot of gold was to be used! Did Solomon somehow neglect the poor by doing so? Not at all. He was giving glory to God as He himself commanded Him to. Given that God’s Nature is unchanging, why do you think God doesn’t want us to glorify Him in the same way in our times?

Now consider Jesus’ life. He welcomed Mary Magdalen’s ointment with precious perfume. He was buried in a luxurious tomb. The Three Kings adored Him by presenting him gifts of GOLD, frankincense, and myrrh - all considered luxurious elements during his time. He did not refuse these gifts. On the contrary, when he had the chance to do so, he welcomed them.

Shouldn’t Jesus - present in the Blessed Sacrament - be honoured in the same way? The fact that Jesus came to earth as a poor carpenter was an act of God to teach detachment from earthly things and to dispel the notion that God’s blessing is measurable in material goods, a notion that was somewhat prevalent at the time.
Mystic Saints who have had a glimpse of Heaven describe it as filled with precious stones and golden buildings. In His infinite power, couldn’t God pour down these precious materials on Africa, allowing its people to sell them and ameliorate their living conditions as a consequence? No, because what is God’s is God’s, and what is man’s is man’s.
The Church’s liturgical beauty and material goods are there for us to give glory to God and give His people a glimpse of His infinite Majesty, hardened as we are in our hearts. The Church’s material wealth is of God, not of man.

Plus, if the Church sold all its wealth it wouldn’t, in of itself, help to decrease poverty in the long run. As Jesus said, the poor will always be here. It is our duty to help them as much as we can, and they give us an opportunity to be holy through the corporal works of mercy.
awesome explanation! 👍:D:)
 
Gold is scriptural. Just sayin…
That’s the second post this evening where someone says that such-and-such is scriptural.

Death is scriptural. War is scriptural. Wandering the desert for 40 years is scriptural. Excommunication is scriptural. Eternal damnation in Hell for non-repentant sinners is scriptural.

-Tim-
 
I am in more agreement with the second view…that the millions of dollars used for gold and fine art would be much better used to help feed, clothe, heal, and shelter people.
  1. The Church doesn’t actually buy art or statues, etc. - those things are donated by parishioners, as are the Church buildings themselves.
  2. There is no organization on earth that gives as much to the poor as the Catholic Church - including beautiful art to look at, beautiful statues to enjoy, and beautiful buildings in which to worship - as well as schools, hospitals, food banks, job training, and financial support.
 
I was talking to a friend earlier, and we got talking about the Liturgy and beauty. I had sent images of Cardinal Burke and Pius XII’s coronation as an example.

My friend was quite opposed to what he described as “pompous”. I’ll provide an outline of each one’s main points. The question will follow that.

In favour (me)
  • God is perfectly holy. He is holiness itself. Within the Liturgy, this all-holy God comes among us bodily in the Eucharist: The King of the Universe is manifest. Therefore, we should give Him our very best, which is why churches traditionally have lots of gold and fine art.
  • Beautiful churches proclaim God’s holiness to the world. They are an expression of our Faith, indeed, they are a manifestation of good works. And faith without works is dead.
In opposition
  • The money used to build ostentatious churches is best used to help the poor. The time and effort invested is best used for preaching (Acts 20:20)
  • How does it help the poor for the Pope to wear an expensive tiara, for Bishops to wear precious mitres and vestments? A Bishop is different from God.
Are there any Scriptural examples that one could use to justify the traditional Catholic practice of lavishing churches? What about point no. 2?
Everybody who complains about the generocity that some show for their God should practice what they preach. No need to spend a lot of money on weddings, jewelry, cars, houses, or any other personal luxury items or pleasure trips etc. when they could give that money to the poor. We are the church. It is the responsibility of all of us to help the poor.
 
I used to have very mixed feelings about this, thinking the money should be used other ways. Then I visited a very beautiful church in a very small rural town and read a plaque about how the people made great sacrifices to build that church. They wanted God’s church to be the nicest home in town, nicer than the local railroad mogul.

That softened my heart to not judge people who are trying to give their best to God. Here are scriptures that I think support this … each should contribute as the Holy Spirit leads:

**Exo 25:1 This is what the LORD then said to Moses:
Exo 25:2 Tell the Israelites to take up a collection for me. From every man you shall accept the contribution that his heart prompts him to give me.
Exo 25:3 These are the contributions you shall accept from them: gold, silver and bronze;
Exo 25:4 violet, purple and scarlet yarn; fine linen and goat hair;
Exo 25:5 rams’ skins dyed red, and tahash skins; acacia wood;
Exo 25:6 oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense;
Exo 25:7 onyx stones and other gems for mounting on the ephod and the breastpiece.
Exo 25:8 They shall make a sanctuary for me, that I may dwell in their midst.

Exo 35:21 everyone, as his heart suggested and his spirit prompted, brought a contribution to the LORD for the construction of the meeting tent, for all its services, and for the sacred vestments.
Exo 35:22 Both the men and the women, all as their heart prompted them, brought brooches, earrings, rings, necklaces and various other gold articles. Everyone who could presented an offering of gold to the LORD.

2Ch 2:3 I intend to build a house for the honor of the LORD, my God, and to consecrate it to him, for the burning of fragrant incense in his presence, for the perpetual display of the showbread, for holocausts morning and evening, and for the sabbaths, new moons, and festivals of the LORD, our God: such is Israel’s perpetual obligation.
2Ch 2:4 And the house I intend to build must be large, for our God is greater than all other gods.

Ezr 2:68 When they arrived at the house of the LORD in Jerusalem, some of the family heads made free-will offerings for the house of God, to rebuild it in its place.
Ezr 2:69 According to their means they contributed to the treasury for the temple service: sixty-one thousand drachmas of gold, five thousand minas of silver, and one hundred garments for the priests. **
 
Jesus didn’t need any of it. He walked around in simple robes and sandals it seems.

.
What is this nonsense about Jesus only having simple robes and sandals. When he was crucified he was wearing a garment without any seams. It was too nice to tear so the soldiers threw lots for it. 🤷 So either he purchased this relatively nice garment, or some wealthier person gave it to him, for his glory. And he just happened to be wearing that night in the garden…

And everyone wore sandals in that time and place, no where does it talk about the quality of Jesus’ sandals (if they were simple or fancy).
 
That’s the second post this evening where someone says that such-and-such is scriptural.

Death is scriptural. War is scriptural. Wandering the desert for 40 years is scriptural. Excommunication is scriptural. Eternal damnation in Hell for non-repentant sinners is scriptural.

-Tim-
Well… I’m not quite sure what you mean by this post.
 
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