Criticism of the Latin Mass at the National Shrine in D.C

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I’ve noticed a few articles written which take an extremely antagonistic tone towards the Latin Mass at the National Shrine:

Watching the Old Latin Mass. . .

A Ridiculous Mountain of Red Silk

DC Liturgy: cappa magna, glorious music, Latin glitches

What should we make of these? I can’t wrap my head around how. . . insensitive? . . . misguided? . . . this criticism seems.

I’m trying to recollect if I’ve ever read or heard any convincing criticism of the Latin Mass. This doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be good reason for another form (e.g. the Ordinary Form) but was there ever good reason to, for lack of better term, risk the loss of the Latin Mass?

On the other hand, of the criticism that I’ve read or heard of the Ordinary Form, some of it seems intelligible to me. Some of it rings true. I’m not talking of criticism of abuses, or criticism that tends towards extremism, but just criticism of certain aspects of the Ordinary Form.

What should I make of this? I think I’m on the precipice of committing some sort of logical fallacy – of drawing some sort of unfounded conclusion. Can someone help me understand why I have this foreboding and what logical fallacy I may be inching towards?

VC
 
The only criticism I heard was concerning the removal of Cardinal Hoyos as the celebrant of the Mass at the last moment.
 
Mark,

Yes, I do read Fr. Z’s blog, and these articles are mentioned by him and analyzed.

But this is exactly what I mean in a sense. The criticism of the Latin Mass often strikes me as blind criticism, i.e the criticism of one who doesn’t understand what they are criticizing. People who don’t “get it”.

But on the other hand, the criticism (the moderate, sensible kind) of the Ordinary Form doesn’t usually strike me as blind criticism but as perceptive criticism – someone with a penetrating gaze, who “gets it” and sees deeply.

Do you understand what I mean? Am I missing something obvious? Maybe I haven’t been exposed to the right things.

VC
 
I don’t know what the above people’s problem is, but I’m sure the devil was positively crushed. 👍

I think that there are a lot of people who appear to have spent their lives trying to destroy the Roman Catholic Church from within. I think they were born Catholic and like the ‘culture’ of it, but really want to be Protestants. Either that or they harbor secret vices which might be excused if they can destroy the moral authority of the Church. But now they’re in a panic because piety, reverence and morality are making a comeback!

In any event, whatever the motivation (and who can read their hearts?), one thing is clear: that holy Mass was one of the noblest, most elevated forms of worship of Almighty God that mankind can muster. We ought always to give God our best… and we can only do this with His help. As much as we should oppose those who oppose such holy acts, we should pray for them too.

Anyone who can behold acts of holy piety and worshipful, pure adoration of Jesus Christ and react with hatred really deserves our pity. Our firm and unwavering opposition as warriors for Christ… but also our love and pity.
 
They are deceived. Sadly. And unfortunately, they are deceiving others as well.
 
But this is exactly what I mean in a sense. The criticism of the Latin Mass often strikes me as blind criticism, i.e the criticism of one who doesn’t understand what they are criticizing. People who don’t “get it”.VC
That’s exactly the point, many people no longer understand the Mass in Latin or the Rubrics. It is foreign to them. 🙂
 
Mark,

Yes, I do read Fr. Z’s blog, and these articles are mentioned by him and analyzed.

But this is exactly what I mean in a sense. The criticism of the Latin Mass often strikes me as blind criticism, i.e the criticism of one who doesn’t understand what they are criticizing. People who don’t “get it”.

But on the other hand, the criticism (the moderate, sensible kind) of the Ordinary Form doesn’t usually strike me as blind criticism but as perceptive criticism – someone with a penetrating gaze, who “gets it” and sees deeply.

Do you understand what I mean? Am I missing something obvious? Maybe I haven’t been exposed to the right things.

VC
Hmm. I’ve read plenty of idiotic, unthinking, biased nonsense about the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form alike, and I’ve read “perceptive,” “penetrating” criticism of each as well. From all I’ve read, way too many pre-Conciliar Masses were rushed, pronounced in bad Latin, difficult to hear, had little or no congregational participation in the propers or even the ordinary, and encouraged merely reading along in the Missal silently or flat-out praying other prayers altogether, both of which people are perfectly capable of doing on their own time. Those are all reasonable criticisms. One may ultimately disagree, or think they are outweighed by corresponding benefits: e.g., yes, the Latin makes it difficult to understand the prayers, but promotes education and fosters a global unity in the liturgy. That’s fine, but of course different people can weigh costs and benefits differently.

Then there are people in varying shades of denial or strangeness: “The Latin is not difficult to understand!” “It’s no more difficult than trying to understand a godless Bugnini-infested puppet mass!” “In fact, it’s a benefit, not a drawback, that the Mass was difficult to hear, it promoted reading along in your missal! Or, if you didn’t have one, it promoted a sense of mystery!”

Frankly, what’s lacking on the part of certain TLM supporters is any sense that the TLM has drawbacks at all – even if they might be strongly outweighed by the benefits. I think, in fact, that there’s an excellent case to be made, for instance, that the geographically and temporally unitive properties of the Latin outweigh the difficulty in understanding it when spoken. Some people do make that case, but others prefer to stick their fingers in their ears, stamp their feet, and shout “The TLM is a slice of heaven on earth! It was perfected over 1,962 years and could not possibly need change!”

Worse, these are the same people who, if the topic of the Ordinary Form comes up, will immediately spout two or three paragraphs with the following phrases arranged among some participles: “Bugnini Mass . . . giant puppets . . . smoke of Satan in the Vatican . . . detatched Cranmer Table . . . happy-clappy . . . Mahoney . . . Protestant!” If you even suggest that something so minor as that the new three-year Lectionary could be an improvement on what was done before 1962, you will be shouted down as “unTraditional” and wanting to stamp out the TLM once and for all. Call me crazy, but I think the congregation should get to sing the Pater Noster, not just the last five words after the celebrant prays most of it silently. It’s not Pater meus, after all. Again, though, for some people the notion of changing one tittle or jot of the 1962 missal is heresy itself.

So it should not be surprising that there is unthinking criticism on the other side as well. The least-used – and most useful – phrase in liturgical discussions is, “You’re right in your criticism, but I think the problems you identify are outweighed by . . . .” Thus the blind partisans of the new form of the rite would never begin a sentence, “You’re right that looser rubrics open the door to the possibility of irreverent celebration, but they have the benefit that . . .”, or “I agree with your concern that a lack of long stretches of silence at the Mass can make it more difficult to focus on internal prayer, but on the other hand . . . .”

Instead people talk as though those on the other side were not just lunatics but positively hell-bent on destroying the Mass as a form of worship. “You want a Protestantized bread-breaking that’s hardly Catholic at all!” “Oh yeah? You want a clericalized runway show in an ancient language that not even the clerics can speak!”

But if you look hard enough, there are people making reasonable criticisms on both sides.
 
Oops, I hit Post a little too quickly. I was going to say that there are probably more reasonable voices right now on the pro-TLM side, just because they are in the minority and are in the position that they have to make arguments and try to convince people. When you’re in the majority, you don’t have to argue anything – if you’re short-sighted, that is, which humanity in general is. That’s why the 1960’s relics are so befuddled by the resurgence of interest in the traditional form of the rite: they’ve been in the majority, and “current and relevant,” for so long that they’ve forgotten what it’s like to have to promote your point of view. I’m sure things will balance out as time goes by, though.

Nevertheless, there are very, very good criticisms to be made of the old form. And they have been made – at and after the Council, as well as for decades before. Two thousand bishops and all the subsequent committees didn’t just get stoned on acid and have a collective trip (though there are some on this board who will say just that and post an obnoxious 😃 or 👍 next to it). They had reasons for what they did. The reasons may be good or bad, and the outcome may or may not have been exactly what it should have, but if you’re looking for reasonable criticism (with which, ultimately, you may totally disagree, of course) of the theory and praxis of the TLM, the writings of the Council and the thought of the Liturgical Movement are a good place to go.
 
Mark,

Thanks for your thoughts. I’ll keep my eyes out.

One thing though,
From all I’ve read, way too many pre-Conciliar Masses were rushed, pronounced in bad Latin, difficult to hear, had little or no congregational participation in the propers or even the ordinary, and encouraged merely reading along in the Missal silently or flat-out praying other prayers altogether, both of which people are perfectly capable of doing on their own time. Those are all reasonable criticisms. One may ultimately disagree, or think they are outweighed by corresponding benefits: e.g., yes, the Latin makes it difficult to understand the prayers, but promotes education and fosters a global unity in the liturgy. That’s fine, but of course different people can weigh costs and benefits differently.
I note that the first three criticisms seem to be of the kind I wasn’t speaking of – i.e. poor execution, or abuses. The fourth, about participation is one of those things that I wonder about – I wonder if it is an unfair criticism in sense that participation seems to mean more than doing something active. Likewise the fifth, reading silently or praying can be down on ones own time, but when it is done during the Mass it is during the Mass and that seems to me to be something different.

The sixth, about Latin making it difficult to understand the prayers is another one I don’t quite understand. For those who could read, weren’t there publications that gave the vernacular?

I suppose I just wonder if these types of things aren’t misapplied to the Latin Mass. Perhaps a misapplied standard?

Don’t get me wrong – I don’t think these things you mention are absurdities like some of the criticisms we see of both forms. But, I still can’t help feel that they don’t have the weight of the best criticisms I’ve seen of the Ordinary Form. Forgive my appeal to an intuitive sense here, but the criticisms I see of the Ordinary Form often feel to me like objections to reading Shakespeare. . . that his language is confusing, or too difficult, or not relevant to today. Does that make any sense?

Thanks
VC
 
Oops, I hit Post a little too quickly.
Ha. I replied too quickly too, I didn’t see your addendum. thanks for this.
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MarkThompson:
I was going to say that there are probably more reasonable voices right now on the pro-TLM side, just because they are in the minority and are in the position that they have to make arguments and try to convince people. When you’re in the majority, you don’t have to argue anything – if you’re short-sighted, that is, which humanity in general is. That’s why the 1960’s relics are so befuddled by the resurgence of interest in the traditional form of the rite: they’ve been in the majority, and “current and relevant,” for so long that they’ve forgotten what it’s like to have to promote your point of view. I’m sure things will balance out as time goes by, though.
Ah, now that is intriguing. That might be a good point – that the strong arguments just aren’t being made.
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MarkThompson:
Nevertheless, there are very, very good criticisms to be made of the old form. And they have been made – at and after the Council, as well as for decades before.
Right, Mark, but I mentioned in my first post that there might be good reason for another form, or alternates. I suppose I could expand on that and say there might be good reasons for modifications, or indults, etc. etc. But, would the Council Fathers scorn their own Mass? Was there ever a reason to risk loosing it? It doesn’t seem infirm to me at all, but rather quite vigorous.

VC
 
I note that the first three criticisms seem to be of the kind I wasn’t speaking of – i.e. poor execution, or abuses. The fourth, about participation is one of those things that I wonder about – I wonder if it is an unfair criticism in sense that participation seems to mean more than doing something active. Likewise the fifth, reading silently or praying can be down on ones own time, but when it is done during the Mass it is during the Mass and that seems to me to be something different.
Yes, Father Z is big on the notion of silently praying along as “active participation,” and there’s definitely some truth to it. Mostly there is not, though, and I would rather that people argued against the notion of active participation in everything than try to claim that sitting and reading is somehow active. Yes, I know why the Father Z’s must do this: because Vatican II called for active participation, and now Father Z must make his argument within that context.

I have been at Masses where the priest intones the Pater Noster, prays it silently, then sings “et ne nos inducas in tentationem,” and the congregation finishes it. I’ve also been at Masses where we all join hands, sway back and forth (literally), and sing the Our Father to a schmaltzy tune. I don’t like either practice, and if forced to pick one or the other I would probably pick the first. But I’ll tell you in all honesty: I think I participated more actively in the prayer at the second Mass. I know TLM partisans will insist that that they’re engaged in gung-ho active participation by sitting and reading. I still don’t buy it. Of course, I don’t buy that active participation is the be-all and end-all of the liturgy, either, and I’m willing to say so.

Obviously there are the gung-ho post-Conciliar types who think that it you’re not up in the sanctuary handling the sacred vessels you can’t possibly be actively participating, and that point of view is totally wrong too.

And, naturally, these things are different for different people. Some people never sing at Mass, so of course it has no effect on them whether a given part of the Mass like the Gloria is sung by the choir or the congregation. I love to sing, and I have a nice voice which does creditable service to the Mass, so I’m always disappointed when I have to remain quiet.
The sixth, about Latin making it difficult to understand the prayers is another one I don’t quite understand. For those who could read, weren’t there publications that gave the vernacular?
I wonder what people would be saying today if Bishop Slattery had delivered his homily in Latin (or, say, Polish) with a translation printed and distributed. It’s just not the same thing. Again, there may be benefits – if a bishop only speaks Polish, you’re getting Polish or nothing – but there’s no sense arguing that this is an optimal state of affairs, nor that hearing a foreign language and reading along with a translation is the same as hearing someone speaking to you in your native tongue.
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t think these things you mention are absurdities like some of the criticisms we see of both forms. But, I still can’t help feel that they don’t have the weight of the best criticisms I’ve seen of the Ordinary Form.
Well, I’m not sure what the best criticisms you’ve seen of the Ordinary Form are. I do think one thing to remember is what exactly it is we’re comparing. Today, the EF is celebrated in very few parishes, only by unabashedly orthodox, generally well-educated priests who are fanatical about the rubrics and devoted to the Mass as the source and summit of Catholic life. They know that critics are watching them – and their movement – with an unforgiving eye. And every once in a blue moon, we will have something like last week’s Pontifical High Mass, which gets shown on EWTN and discussed. There’s a strong tendency to compare this to the utterly average OF Mass celebrated in every utterly average American parish every week, or, worse, to things like the Los Angeles LAREC conference Mass, which gets circulated on YouTube and discussed.

So people will compare an EF Mass of exceedingly rare greatness to an OF Mass of exceedingly rare awfulness. I’ve read a lot of comments in the last week that run, “The Mass at the shrine was wonderful. Tell me again, why did we give this up for puppet masses with rock bands and dancing deacons?” It’s, obviously, not a valid criticism.

In general, the criticisms I hear of the OF are criticisms of its worst examples. And since the EF is presently celebrated only by a small handful of unabashedly orthodox and highly educated priests who know that they, and their entire movement, are constantly under the unforgiving gaze of critical eyes, there just aren’t such terrible examples of the EF to be had today.

And it might well simply be the case that you’re own opinions line up better with the EF, which is why you find criticisms of the EF weak and criticisms of the OF trenchant. Again, I’m not sure just which criticisms of the OF you find quite so cutting, but if they line up with your existing beliefs that might well explain why you see them as especially incisive.

I am curious though what the strongest criticisms you’ve heard of the OF are, particularly if they can be phrased in a fashion more specific than “It’s just not as reverent and worshipful” or “It’s just not as Catholic.” Those aren’t very useful criticisms, because different people can – and are fully entitled to – have different views of what they find reverent or prayerful. Even within the TLM community, I know there are people who prefer a silent Low Mass and people who prefer a sung High Mass.
 
That’s exactly the point, many people no longer understand the Mass in Latin or the Rubrics. It is foreign to them. 🙂
And whose fault is that? Seems like for centuries the people had no problems understanding most of the Latin. Perhaps they goofed when they started translating it. And thus entered the confusion surrounding accuracy of the translations and meanings and having to rewrite texts so the brain challenged could understand them better.

Today there seems to be little motivation to study Latin or Greek. But then there is no motivation to learn to do your own taxes either as it is so much cheaper and faster to hire someone else or run software to do them for you. Technology is good but does it make things always better? What if you don’t have a calculator on hand to do a simple addition or multiplication? Do you just not bother with it?
 
Yes, Father Z is big on the notion of silently praying along as “active participation,” and there’s definitely some truth to it. Mostly there is not, though, and I would rather that people argued against the notion of active participation in everything than try to claim that sitting and reading is somehow active. Yes, I know why the Father Z’s must do this: because Vatican II called for active participation, and now Father Z must make his argument within that context.
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I can see where you might think silently praying along wouldn’t be “active participation.” For me personally, I feel like I’m more actively participating while reading along silently b/c when other people are doing the readings I know I tend to zone out. However, if I have to read them, it keeps my mind focused.
But you are right in that everyone is different, and for those who simply cannot sit and read along silently, the OF is a better “active participation” for them. We recognize people learn best differently, whether it be auditory, visual etc., so having a few (valid, non-abusive, liturgically correct) choices of service is a good thing. 👍
 
For me personally, I feel like I’m more actively participating while reading along silently
I agree. Because it’s better that each one goes at his own comfortable pace. You can’t do that while trying to keep up or slow down with a collective “Our Father.” There you’re just moving your mouth and spitting out cadences. However, the thinking on that collective prayer is that it speaks louder to God. But is speaking to God loudly better?

PS. A sung Credo may be an exception to the rule. 🙂
 
Hmm. I’ve read plenty of idiotic, unthinking, biased nonsense about the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form alike, and I’ve read “perceptive,” “penetrating” criticism of each as well. From all I’ve read, way too many pre-Conciliar Masses were rushed, pronounced in bad Latin, difficult to hear, had little or no congregational participation in the propers or even the ordinary, and **encouraged merely reading along in the Missal silently **or flat-out praying other prayers altogether, both of which people are perfectly capable of doing on their own time. Those are all reasonable criticisms. One may ultimately disagree, or think they are outweighed by corresponding benefits: e.g., yes, the Latin makes it difficult to understand the prayers, but promotes education and fosters a global unity in the liturgy. That’s fine, but of course different people can weigh costs and benefits differently.
Mark, do you believe there was no participation ? Does it have to be audible participation to count as participation ?
Then there are people in varying shades of denial or strangeness: “The Latin is not difficult to understand!” “It’s no more difficult than trying to understand a godless Bugnini-infested puppet mass!” “In fact, it’s a benefit, not a drawback, that the Mass was difficult to hear, it promoted reading along in your missal! Or, if you didn’t have one, it promoted a sense of mystery!”
Frankly, what’s lacking on the part of certain TLM supporters is any sense that the TLM has drawbacks at all – even if they might be strongly outweighed by the benefits. I think, in fact, that there’s an excellent case to be made, for instance, that the geographically and temporally unitive properties of the Latin outweigh the difficulty in understanding it when spoken. Some people do make that case, but others prefer to stick their fingers in their ears, stamp their feet, and shout “The TLM is a slice of heaven on earth! It was perfected over 1,962 years and could not possibly need change!”
Worse, these are the same people who, if the topic of the Ordinary Form comes up, will immediately spout two or three paragraphs with the following phrases arranged among some participles: “Bugnini Mass . . . giant puppets . . . smoke of Satan in the Vatican . . . detatched Cranmer Table . . . happy-clappy . . . Mahoney . . . Protestant!” If you even suggest that something so minor as that the new three-year Lectionary could be an improvement on what was done before 1962, you will be shouted down as “unTraditional” and wanting to stamp out the TLM once and for all. Call me crazy, but I think the congregation should get to sing the Pater Noster, not just the last five words after the celebrant prays most of it silently. It’s not Pater meus, after all. Again, though, for some people the notion of changing one tittle or jot of the 1962 missal is heresy itself.
So it should not be surprising that there is unthinking criticism on the other side as well. The least-used – and most useful – phrase in liturgical discussions is, “You’re right in your criticism, but I think the problems you identify are outweighed by . . . .” Thus the blind partisans of the new form of the rite would never begin a sentence, “You’re right that looser rubrics open the door to the possibility of irreverent celebration, but they have the benefit that . . .”, or “I agree with your concern that a lack of long stretches of silence at the Mass can make it more difficult to focus on internal prayer, but on the other hand . . . .”
Instead people talk as though those on the other side were not just lunatics but positively hell-bent on destroying the Mass as a form of worship. “You want a Protestantized bread-breaking that’s hardly Catholic at all!” “Oh yeah? You want a clericalized runway show in an ancient language that not even the clerics can speak!”
But if you look hard enough, there are people making reasonable criticisms on both sides.
What I find amusing is people who have never attended an EF, or just go once expecting to follow along easily, trying to find fault with it. I asked a local priest in his 90’s if the assertions of Masses being mumbled were true. He said in all his years, he never heard such, and rarely heard a priest rush through the prayers of the Mass. He said the only thing that troubled him was people falling asleep during his sermons lol.

I just don’t buy any of the current criticisms of the EF. The priests praying it these days want to pray it. And there is just as much participation by the laity as the OF if not more.

jmo
 
I agree. Because it’s better that each one goes at his own comfortable pace. You can’t do that while trying to keep up or slow down with a collective “Our Father.” There you’re just moving your mouth and spitting out cadences. However, the thinking on that collective prayer is that it speaks louder to God. But is speaking to God loudly better?

PS. A sung Credo may be an exception to the rule. 🙂
Perhaps regarding the collective prayer that may be the case if as they say a song is like praying twice, then maybe an audible prayer is praying 1.5 times? 😉 I’m not an audible pray-er on my own though, since I find I can formulate my thoughts better if I’m not trying to say them out loud. I think rather, that a sincere and focused prayer whether audible or not speaks louder to God than one you just “go with the flow” on. And when I’ve said the Our Father out loud, I’m constantly guilty of just flowing along with it, and not really thinking about it. That is though, just my personal experience.
 
And whose fault is that? Seems like for centuries the people had no problems understanding most of the Latin. Perhaps they goofed when they started translating it. And thus entered the confusion surrounding accuracy of the translations and meanings and having to rewrite texts so the brain challenged could understand them better.

Today there seems to be little motivation to study Latin or Greek. But then there is no motivation to learn to do your own taxes either as it is so much cheaper and faster to hire someone else or run software to do them for you. Technology is good but does it make things always better? What if you don’t have a calculator on hand to do a simple addition or multiplication? Do you just not bother with it?
Be careful where you find fault. Even most of our Catholic Schools no longer teach Latin. I had a son who after graduating Georgetown decided he would study Latin and Classical Greek. He did well, but lasted one semester where upon he threw up his hands and went to law school instead. Once Latin ceased being the language of academics and scientists it became almost as vestigial as the appendix. Few but those going into the priesthood had much to do with it. Even in clerical circles, having to translate Latin into vernacular languages isn’t all that easy as attested to by the need for committees to provide the translation and the requirement for the Holy See to approve their product.What a mishmash we would have when every person in the pew provided his own interpretation. By the by two of my other sons are accountants and my wife a retired IRS examiner. Haven’t done my own taxes since starting my first full time job. 👍
 
Perhaps regarding the collective prayer that may be the case if as they say a song is like praying twice, then maybe an audible prayer is praying 1.5 times? 😉 I’m not an audible pray-er on my own though, since I find I can formulate my thoughts better if I’m not trying to say them out loud. I think rather, that a sincere and focused prayer whether audible or not speaks louder to God than one you just “go with the flow” on. And when I’ve said the Our Father out loud, I’m constantly guilty of just flowing along with it, and not really thinking about it. That is though, just my personal experience.
Not only your experience, mine too. Out of all Vatican II “wishes” (preserve Latin, Gregorian chant, pipe organ, etc.) it is this “active participation” that gets the most debate and I really think the issue is overblown. Each one has to choose for himself whether he wants to follow along; if you choose not to follow the Mass, moving your lips won’t help you.
 
I’ve noticed a few articles written which take an extremely antagonistic tone towards the Latin Mass at the National Shrine:

Watching the Old Latin Mass. . .

A Ridiculous Mountain of Red Silk

DC Liturgy: cappa magna, glorious music, Latin glitches

What should we make of these? I can’t wrap my head around how. . . insensitive? . . . misguided? . . . this criticism seems.

I’m trying to recollect if I’ve ever read or heard any convincing criticism of the Latin Mass. This doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be good reason for another form (e.g. the Ordinary Form) but was there ever good reason to, for lack of better term, risk the loss of the Latin Mass?

On the other hand, of the criticism that I’ve read or heard of the Ordinary Form, some of it seems intelligible to me. Some of it rings true. I’m not talking of criticism of abuses, or criticism that tends towards extremism, but just criticism of certain aspects of the Ordinary Form.

What should I make of this? I think I’m on the precipice of committing some sort of logical fallacy – of drawing some sort of unfounded conclusion. Can someone help me understand why I have this foreboding and what logical fallacy I may be inching towards?

VC
For good or for ill, these criticisms don’t surprise me.

It’s some of the very things mentioned that turn will and do turn many Catholics off to the EF

Again for good or ill, it is reality of human nature.
 
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