Criticism of Things Catholic

[elt1956]

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

I like that emoticon. Does justice to this thread.

Seriously people, are you going to lose your faith over “many” or “all”?

As i said before, and i say again now, this is the most asinine argument i have seen to date. Love they God, love they neighbor, turn away from sin.

The devil is laughing all the way to the bank with this stuff.

I agree 100% revelations. I just wonder what we CATHOLICS will argue over next? We still haven’t settled the TLM vs. the NO thing, the head covering for women thing , or the do really pious women wear jumpers thing and now we have the “word” thing. It’s not only our friendly adversary who is laughing, what about non-Catholics who post on these forums? I thought this picky unie stuff went out with Luther. (Although he did have some good reasons, just not all) Apparently not. Get real people.

 

[reggieM]

Still leaves unanswered the question as to why it was true for 2000 years that the Blood was shed for many, but after Vatican II, in the USA New Mass, it has been changed to the Blood is shed for all.

I don’t think that question has been left “unanswered” in general terms. You can read about it elsewhere.

But the reason for the change was quite simple. It would be a heresy to think that Jesus did not offer His life for the salvation of all but only for some.

So the phrase “for many” was changed to “for all” in order to make that clearer.

I wonder why you find this particular point so compelling (and why you think that it “has not been answered”).

 

[reggieM]

why for 2000 years it was taught that the Blood was shed for many

Apparently, you think that the teaching was that the Blood was shed for some part of humanity and not for all.

That is not the teaching.

Additionally, the liturgical phrase you are referring to is not strictly a “teaching”. It’s part of a liturgical text. It has some teaching value, but it is not primarily didactic in value.

For “2000 years” the Roman Canon did not include a reference to St. Joseph.

Why did Pope John XXIII add that to the Canon of the Mass?

 

[bobzills]

Apparently, you think that the teaching was that the Blood was shed for some part of humanity and not for all.

That is not the teaching.

Additionally, the liturgical phrase you are referring to is not strictly a “teaching”. It’s part of a liturgical text. It has some teaching value, but it is not primarily didactic in value.

I thought it was lex orandi, lex credendi?

 

[IAmEdmund]

Thanks for this thread, Deacon Ed B!

One of the principles I learned as a Protestant was to allow everyone to practice the spiritual gifts that they are given by the Holy Spirit and not try to be someone in the church that we are not gifted to be.

One of the reasons that many Protestant churches split is because everyone wants to “be the pastor” or “be the music director” or “be the treasurer” or even “be the decorating committee chairperson!”

They criticize everything, plant doubts and dissension while using the Bible (the Supreme Authority of the Protestant fellowships) to justify their criticisms. Inevitably schisms in the fellowship develop, often the pastor or other beleaguered and discouraged leader quits, and the church splits. Usually there are bad feelings and broken hearts. Sometimes there is utter spiritual ruin as disgusted members reject Christianity entirely after experiencing the rottenness.

I’ve seen this happen over and over again, and it makes my stomach hurt to see Catholics mimicking this behavior, only instead of using the Bible to justify their litany of complaints, they use the “writings” of the Popes and other bishops. Wake up, Catholics! You are acting like the Protestants!

I think that we should all be docile and submissive to our Church leaders, and if they do something that appears (to our little minds) to be out-of-kilter, we should follow the approved procedure for attempting to correct this, all the while remaining humble and open to the possibility that perhaps WE are wrong, not our leaders.

Dear Cat,

In a few short paragraphs, you told my story in total!!

That is exactly what happened to me.

I was a deacon at a local Baptist church that was torn apart for ALL the very reasons you listed… every one of them!!!

How I love the Roman Catholic Church! 2000 years and counting!!

Didn’t Jesus say something to the effect that some would come with false doctrines and teaching? The Magesterium, Tradition and Holy Scripture is MORE than able to attend to such affronts as these.

Thanks be to God I’m home in Rome!!!

 

[PatrickJT914]

To: Cat

To: IAmEdmund :clapping:

To the both of you: Welcome to the Catholic Church:yup: :extrahappy: :dancing:

 

[reggieM]

I thought it was lex orandi, lex credendi?

Actually, that phrase is misused an misinterpreted quite often.

It cannot mean that “the law of prayer” is the sole substance of the content of the faith (the law of belief).

The liturgy of the church is not primarily pedagogy. That is one of the biggest problems with the Novus Ordo where pedagogy (usually through text) was pushed on the liturgical form.

Perhaps one proof of this is the silent Canon of the Mass itself. The Church cannot have believed that the text of the Canon was equivalent to a catechetical exercise – since the prayer was said in silence and in a language that only a tiny minority of Catholics understood (for centuries).

Keep in mind also that the Church forbade the use of vernacular translations of the Mass all the way through the late 19th century. We might forget that vernacular versions of handmissals were forbidden (in fact, they were placed on the index of forbidden books).

So, without knowing Latin there was no way to know what the priest was saying during the Canon of the Mass.

The point here is that the text was not intended as a teaching tool. The Canon was a prayer – offered by the priest.

 

[bobzills]

Actually, that phrase is misused an misinterpreted quite often.

It cannot mean that “the law of prayer” is the sole substance of the content of the faith (the law of belief).

The liturgy of the church is not primarily pedagogy. That is one of the biggest problems with the Novus Ordo where pedagogy (usually through text) was pushed on the liturgical form.

Perhaps one proof of this is the silent Canon of the Mass itself. The Church cannot have believed that the text of the Canon was equivalent to a catechetical exercise – since the prayer was said in silence and in a language that only a tiny minority of Catholics understood (for centuries).

Keep in mind also that the Church forbade the use of vernacular translations of the Mass all the way through the late 19th century. We might forget that vernacular versions of handmissals were forbidden (in fact, they were placed on the index of forbidden books).

So, without knowing Latin there was no way to know what the priest was saying during the Canon of the Mass.

The point here is that the text was not intended as a teaching tool. The Canon was a prayer – offered by the priest.

I believe that this type of mentality and thinking espoused by Roman Catholics, as you have given here, has been said to be a stumbling block for reunion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. For the Orthodox Church believes in preserving the Apostolic Tradition handed down in mystery. . “This inner Tradition ‘handed down to us in a mystery’ is preserved above all in the Church’s worship. Lex orandi lex credendi: men’s faith is expressed in their prayer.” See: “Orthodox Church” by Bishop Kallistos Ware. and “The Divine Liturgy itself, the text and celebrations of the Holy Sacraments, the Liturgical texts of the Church in general are a mine of both precise theology and theological meditation, which can be of great help to anyone who wants to know the faith by praying and worshipping according to the faith.” goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8038.asp

 

[reggieM]

I fully agree that that kind of thing has been a stumbling block between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

The Greek Orthodox have had an advantage of keeping the Greek language alive as a vernacular. So, even though the text of the Divine Liturgy is in an old-Greek usage, it’s still the same language in essence (like Shakespearean English to modern English) – so there wasn’t as abrupt of a change like we have had in the West.

 

[Gara3987]

This is not criticism of things Catholic, most of these people uphold all things Catholic, they just dislike insults to the Catholic faith. Most of them love the Catholic faith and want it to be always upheld and promoted authentically.

Isn’t it terrible when you go into a Catholic Church and wish to have a faithful Mass but then you see EMHC’s when there is no extraordinary circumstances for them to be needed, little reflection of the Catholic faith but innovation and disrespect for our Lord Jesus, etc?

The Pope came to promote fidelity and of course we know that United States Catholics are pretty unfaithful to the Church, and this is reflected in our behavior. I see the Masses as pretty darn good considering the state of the Church in America. I don’t have much to complain about as I can imagine how ugly and banal Mass would be presented to the Pope out here in California. I think we did a good job considering the source.

But some people come from much more faithful parishes and they see the problems much more clearly than the rest of us. They are not complaining against Catholicism but against unfaithfulness to Catholicism. They are upholding the beauty of Catholicism, we just are used to uglyness that we see any criticism of this as equated with criticizing Catholicism, but I am sure that isn’t the desire of most the people complaining.

Look at both sides from a charitable view and you will see that the people complaining actually have good reason but it is hard to see as most of us have become used to the “American Catholic Church” I don’t hate the NO Mass I grew up in it and serve in it, but we can always do better, we are certainly not the example for the world to follow.

In Christ
Scylla

I totally agree with you.

 

[elt1956]

This is not criticism of things Catholic, most of these people uphold all things Catholic, they just dislike insults to the Catholic faith. Most of them love the Catholic faith and want it to be always upheld and promoted authentically.

Isn’t it terrible when you go into a Catholic Church and wish to have a faithful Mass but then you see EMHC’s when there is no extraordinary circumstances for them to be needed, little reflection of the Catholic faith but innovation and disrespect for our Lord Jesus, etc?

The Pope came to promote fidelity and of course we know that United States Catholics are pretty unfaithful to the Church, and this is reflected in our behavior. I see the Masses as pretty darn good considering the state of the Church in America. I don’t have much to complain about as I can imagine how ugly and banal Mass would be presented to the Pope out here in California. I think we did a good job considering the source.

But some people come from much more faithful parishes and they see the problems much more clearly than the rest of us. They are not complaining against Catholicism but against unfaithfulness to Catholicism. They are upholding the beauty of Catholicism, we just are used to uglyness that we see any criticism of this as equated with criticizing Catholicism, but I am sure that isn’t the desire of most the people complaining.

Look at both sides from a charitable view and you will see that the people complaining actually have good reason but it is hard to see as most of us have become used to the “American Catholic Church” I don’t hate the NO Mass I grew up in it and serve in it, but we can always do better, we are certainly not the example for the world to follow.

In Christ
Scylla

Hello. You are right. Although I have had some really bad reactions to some of the posts ad naseum (like puke) to what is right with TLM and terribly wrong with the NO Mass, on another thread, I will have to give those “only” TLM Catholics credit for making me more aware that everything is not hunky dory, in some respects, with our very beloved Catholic Church. I just wish they would not be so condescending when posting. We are all Catholic trying to understand what we can do to perfect our faith, beliefs and attitudes. Peace.

 

[peary]

I agree, Deacon Ed. They don’t sound like happy people, in my opinion.