Criticism of Things Catholic

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Deacon_Ed_B

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Why do so many find it necessary to criticize things of our Catholic Church. I have seen criticisms of:
  1. The Cross the pope carried.
  2. The vestments worn by priests
  3. How we receive Communion
  4. Calling a pope a heretic
  5. The popes homilies
  6. The mass itself
  7. The way some people chose to pray
  8. Questioning the wording of the mass
I could keep going on, but am sure you all get the point and probably could add much, much more to this list. I for one am really saddened in seeing so much animosity about the Church Your thoughts please.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Why do so many find it necessary to criticize things of our Catholic Church. I have seen criticisms of:
  1. The Cross the pope carried.
  2. The vestments worn by priests
  3. How we receive Communion
  4. Calling a pope a heretic
  5. The popes homilies
  6. The mass itself
  7. The way some people chose to pray
  8. Questioning the wording of the mass
I could keep going on, but am sure you all get the point and probably could add much, much more to this list. I for one am really saddened in seeing so much animosity about the Church Your thoughts please.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Consider it a “teaching moment!”
 
I couldn’t agree more with you.

I think many on here are using the Pope’s trip as a way for furthering their own ideals. The people that hate the NO mass are using it as a way to say “see the DC Mass stunk, this is why the Traditional Mass is better”. People that hate EMHCs use it as a way to put them down. People that hate anything besides Chant and Latin, attack that. Other people looking for perceived liturgal abuses, try to find them.

If people start looking beyond their own personal preferences, they may realize that the main purpose is to worship God and we had the wonderful chance to worship with the Pope. This trip showed many sides of the Church. Why help the division? Help unite the Church and worship God.
 
This is not criticism of things Catholic, most of these people uphold all things Catholic, they just dislike insults to the Catholic faith. Most of them love the Catholic faith and want it to be always upheld and promoted authentically.

Isn’t it terrible when you go into a Catholic Church and wish to have a faithful Mass but then you see EMHC’s when there is no extraordinary circumstances for them to be needed, little reflection of the Catholic faith but innovation and disrespect for our Lord Jesus, etc?

The Pope came to promote fidelity and of course we know that United States Catholics are pretty unfaithful to the Church, and this is reflected in our behavior. I see the Masses as pretty darn good considering the state of the Church in America. I don’t have much to complain about as I can imagine how ugly and banal Mass would be presented to the Pope out here in California. I think we did a good job considering the source.

But some people come from much more faithful parishes and they see the problems much more clearly than the rest of us. They are not complaining against Catholicism but against unfaithfulness to Catholicism. They are upholding the beauty of Catholicism, we just are used to uglyness that we see any criticism of this as equated with criticizing Catholicism, but I am sure that isn’t the desire of most the people complaining.

Look at both sides from a charitable view and you will see that the people complaining actually have good reason but it is hard to see as most of us have become used to the “American Catholic Church” I don’t hate the NO Mass I grew up in it and serve in it, but we can always do better, we are certainly not the example for the world to follow.

In Christ
Scylla
 
What’s sad is that the criticisms are coming from Catholics!

Rather than uniting to help build God’s Kingdom here on earth, we tear each other down. What wasted energy.
 
I’m new to the Catholic faith. Most of you know that already due to previous posts but anyway. Before becoming Catholic I was always impressed with the uniformity of the Church. No matter what church/parish you went to, you always knew what to do and what to expect. After I joined I realized…that wasn’t always the case. In Some parishes people kneel after communion, others stand. Some people accept on the tongue, others don’t approve of that. Some have Tridentine masses, others have very modern ones.

This is very confusing for a new Catholic and I sort of wish that things would be more uniform. I love the tradition but I have read in other threads that since Vatican II things have gone a little haywire. I’m not bashing Vatican II I’m just saying it brought a lot of change. I think this is why a lot of cradle Catholics “criticize” b/c they are used to uniformity and tradition now there isn’t as much. Others like the changes so they don’t understand the criticisms.

I also heard that there was a movement in the Church to bring it back towards tradition…I’m not sure how well that will go given all the people who love all the new things but I would love to see the Catholic Church grow strong again and go back to Its roots. Then again I’m new to the faith so I have yet much to learn
 
scylla said:
But some people come from much more faithful parishes and they see the problems much more clearly than the rest of us. They are not complaining against Catholicism but against unfaithfulness to Catholicism.
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Many are coming from what they think of as faithful parishs and think they know the regulations better then the Bishops and Cardinals. Just because something may be done one way at their local parish doesn’t mean it has to be that way. There are places where changes can legally be made as long as they are permitted by the rubrics, the local Bishop and the Holy See.

The problem is that many are coming here complaining about things that are valid options that they personally don’t approve of but the church does permit. An EMHC is permitted, the overuse of EMHCs is not permitted. So if EMHCs are used at the Papal Mass it is allowed if the Ordinary Ministers feel it is necessary. It isn’t up to the lay people on here to judge either way.

The songs used at the DC Mass were permitted, maybe they could have picked better songs at better times, but they are still permitted. To act like it is a major liturgical abuse is only serving as division.

You shouldn’t be watching the Mass for perceived liturgical abuses, which rite it is or the music they are using, you should be worshipping God. If there was something wrong address it after through the proper channels, but don’t sit there angry about perceived liturgical abuses or perceived things that are making the Pope angry.
 
Thanks for this thread, Deacon Ed B!

One of the principles I learned as a Protestant was to allow everyone to practice the spiritual gifts that they are given by the Holy Spirit and not try to be someone in the church that we are not gifted to be.

One of the reasons that many Protestant churches split is because everyone wants to “be the pastor” or “be the music director” or “be the treasurer” or even “be the decorating committee chairperson!”

They criticize everything, plant doubts and dissension while using the Bible (the Supreme Authority of the Protestant fellowships) to justify their criticisms. Inevitably schisms in the fellowship develop, often the pastor or other beleaguered and discouraged leader quits, and the church splits. Usually there are bad feelings and broken hearts. Sometimes there is utter spiritual ruin as disgusted members reject Christianity entirely after experiencing the rottenness.

I’ve seen this happen over and over again, and it makes my stomach hurt to see Catholics mimicking this behavior, only instead of using the Bible to justify their litany of complaints, they use the “writings” of the Popes and other bishops. Wake up, Catholics! You are acting like the Protestants!

I think that we should all be docile and submissive to our Church leaders, and if they do something that appears (to our little minds) to be out-of-kilter, we should follow the approved procedure for attempting to correct this, all the while remaining humble and open to the possibility that perhaps WE are wrong, not our leaders.
 
Granted I do agree with you that a lot of the protestant churches split over petty squabbles, but God gave us a mind for a reason. I think we should be submissive to the Church but if we witness something done in our parish that is blatantly wrong we shouldn’t just follow blindly like drones. People aren’t perfect, and neither are priests or bishops for that matter. I’ve seen on this Forum alone several instances of things done by priests that go against Church teaching.
 
I believe, as a Catholic, that each person’s work should begin within themselves and that we should seek to perfect ourselves as much as possible interiorly. How does anyone justify criticizing others when we have so much within us to be criticized ourselves?

Why don’t we all say a Chaplet of Divine Mercy today for all of God’s priests, all of his religious ones and for our entire holy Catholic Church? 🙂
 
I’m with Scylla.

Not supporting anti-Catholic mentalities entering the Church is now unCatholic? If tha’t help people sleep at night, whatever…
 
scylla said:
This is not criticism of things Catholic, most of these people uphold all things Catholic, they just dislike insults to the Catholic faith. Most of them love the Catholic faith and want it to be always upheld and promoted authentically.

Isn’t it terrible when you go into a Catholic Church and wish to have a faithful Mass but then you see EMHC’s when there is no extraordinary circumstances for them to be needed, little reflection of the Catholic faith but innovation and disrespect for our Lord Jesus, etc?

The Pope came to promote fidelity and of course we know that United States Catholics are pretty unfaithful to the Church, and this is reflected in our behavior. I see the Masses as pretty darn good considering the state of the Church in America. I don’t have much to complain about as I can imagine how ugly and banal Mass would be presented to the Pope out here in California. I think we did a good job considering the source.

But some people come from much more faithful parishes and they see the problems much more clearly than the rest of us. They are not complaining against Catholicism but against unfaithfulness to Catholicism. They are upholding the beauty of Catholicism, we just are used to uglyness that we see any criticism of this as equated with criticizing Catholicism, but I am sure that isn’t the desire of most the people complaining.

Look at both sides from a charitable view and you will see that the people complaining actually have good reason but it is hard to see as most of us have become used to the “American Catholic Church” I don’t hate the NO Mass I grew up in it and serve in it, but we can always do better, we are certainly not the example for the world to follow.

In Christ
Scylla
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Finally, some common sense. But I suppose that was an unChristian comment.

Love your posts Scylla. Where have you been lately?!
 
bump…this is a good post

I view this as a big ol lesson in humility for a lot of people.
 
Jacquelinem said:
Why don’t we all say a Chaplet of Divine Mercy today for all of God’s priests, all of his religious ones and for our entire holy Catholic Church? 🙂
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As a Eucharistic Apostle of Divine Mercy, I say it daily for all, just as you have mentioned. I especially include all who post on this forum, that the Holy Spirit may guide each of us to his truth.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
There is a very simple answer. Many of us were raised to “know” what it means to be Catholic. We were brought up before Vatican II and the changes that followed. We did not like them but we submitted to the Magesterium of HMC. Y’all may not like to hear the answer but most of us were perfectly content with the Church as we knew it. Most of y’all do not have any idea of just how profound a change it was.

Tiber Swim Team members - y’all need to remember and respect that the Church into which you were welcomed is not the Church that some of us grew up with. I know full well that there are Catholics of my generation who embraced what happened after 1968. Well and good. On the other hand, there were just as many of us who didn’t. Our HF is remembering those of us who did not accept what happened.

Deacon Ed: I am not a member of the “I’m OK; you’re OK” school of Catholicism nor am I am member of the “let’s go back to '62” group.

It saddens me to see that this “anything goes” type of mentality is accepted as the norm. You know as well as I that the cross carried by JPII was actually Paul VI’s cross in “the spirit of Vatican II”. I’m glad to see it gone. Vestments? Didn’t affect me.
Communion - I have never received in the hand and never will.
I am not an SPXXer. The HF’s homilies were wonderful. The Mass itself? No. The music, yes.

Not sure what you mean about the way people pray or questioning the Words of the Mass.

I want to speak out for all of us who were alive in the years after Vatican II and were not happy with what happened. I am tired of the “shut up and deal” attitude of those of my generation. The brutal, raw fact is that some of us did not accept what went on. I am not going SPXX nor am I going to sit back and accept what has happened in the last 40 years. I’ve waited and prayed 40 years. Our HF has issued the MP. No, I am not salivating about going to a TLM. We are not Protestants. We are Catholics and we need to return to our roots. And this means that “I’m OK; you’re OK” is not OK.
 
Brotherhrolf

That is exactly what I was trying to say in my post. I’m quite new to the Church but I’ve learned enough about what it was like to know that there have been many changes…being so new I haven’t had the privilege of experiencing what it was like before V II and I would love to be able to do so. That is why many criticize b/c a lot of tradition has changed!

Very well put Brother!
 
brotherhrolf said:
There is a very simple answer. Many of us were raised to “know” what it means to be Catholic.
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It’s attitudes that that, that cause division. Do you honestly believe that celebrating the older style you “know” what it means to be Catholic any more then a person celebrating a valid newer style Mass? If so, I think you need a little more humility. Both versions of the Mass are just as valid and just as Catholic. The entire purpose of MP is to allow for the celebration either way, not for one to overcome the other. It was attitudes like what you are describing that lead to them prohibitting general use of the older style Mass. Because people felt the one was better then the other.

Just because some parishes have taken the “Spirit of Vatican II” to the extreme doesn’t mean all parishes are that way. Let the Pope do his job, let him in charity reign in the people that aren’t following the rules.
 
Marauder said:
It’s attitudes that that, that cause division. Do you honestly believe that celebrating the older style you “know” what it means to be Catholic any more then a person celebrating a valid newer style Mass? If so, I think you need a little more humility. Both versions of the Mass are just as valid and just as Catholic. The entire purpose of MP is to allow for the celebration either way, not for one to overcome the other. It was attitudes like what you are describing that lead to them prohibitting general use of the older style Mass. Because people felt the one was better then the other.

Just because some parishes have taken the “Spirit of Vatican II” to the extreme doesn’t mean all parishes are that way. Let the Pope do his job, let him in charity reign in the people that aren’t following the rules.
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In the words of Queen Quenivere in Camelot “Tell me sirrah, when was the last time you jousted with humilite”?

Had you taken the time to review some of my posts, you would have seen that I am not one of those who wants a return to the EF. But there is far more to being Catholic than just the Mass.

I am a member of a reverent NO parish - a cathedral parish to be precise and I put my money where my mouth is - I’ve also been a member of the choir for the last 25 years.

We drive 25 miles (one way) as we have for the last 25 years (living in two Catholic parishes). Why? Because my parish adheres to that which I grew up with (before Vatican II). It’s not just the Mass, it is things like “reach over and introduce yourself to your neighbor” or hearing Broadway tunes or having Father running up and down the aisles for the sign of peace.

My “attitude” comes from being raised before Vatican II. Not all of us were happy with what came in 68. I was 17 years old at the time and I was not happy. Guess what, surprise, surprise…I do not want to go back to the TLM but I sure do want to see reverence, use of Latin, and an abandonment of all things protestant which have crept into the worship of HMC in the last 40 years.

I “know” what it means to be Catholic. You may think me a dinosaur but I had the roots pulled out from under me 40 years ago as did many others on these forums. We’re not dead; we didn’t like what happened; and we’ve kept our mouths shut for 40 years. We’re not radical but our voices need to be heard.
 
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