Criticisms of Orthodoxy (is back!)

[Cavaradossi]

One additional comment, and I truly don’t mean to be insulting here…we had a Lutheran minister visit our parish. He said his parish had pretty much the same kind of people. He noted in ours a great diversity of type of people, and he sees this in Catholic parishes.

We have parishes with strong ethnic communities, and unless they are mission parishes–now at present we have a Korean and Vietnamese mission parishes, we always work to have a more universal and integrated unity. There is always work and impetus that mission parishes contribute through liturgical and other activities in the general diocese, which they generously do.

But I hold to my ‘guns’ that yes, Orthodox churches are known as ethnic bound…I think of the Ethiopian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Armenian, Russian, etc. You don’t see the Italian Roman Church, or the Irish Roman Church, etc. See my point?

The divisions between Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, etc. are purely jurisdictional. One can be of Greek descent and be a member of the Russian Orthodox Church or of Chinese descent and be a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. Just because they have an ethnicity in the name doesn’t mean that the church excludes people of other ethnic groups.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, and my great grandparents were immigrants…many were here about 100 years ago…the Italians had a very hard time with Irish American priests and their faith culture…or the Irish among the German…but the process was always in the direction of assimilation…

I understand about the jurisdiction.

But the vision of the Roman Catholic faith is more outward towards the world. I like both outward vision of my church as well as the inner mysticism of the east.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The divisions between Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, etc. are purely jurisdictional. One can be of Greek descent and be a member of the Russian Orthodox Church or of Chinese descent and be a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. Just because they have an ethnicity in the name doesn’t mean that the church excludes people of other ethnic groups.

Its not like Roman Catholics are Romans

 

[Cavaradossi]

Its not like Roman Catholics are Romans

Well, the Greeks would have historically contend that they are the real Romans.

 

[Aramis]

Point 1 is wrong.

The See of St Mark the Apostle is filled by his successor Pope Shenouda the IV of the Copts, head of the Oriental Orthodox Communion.

The Antiochian Patriarchate is St. Andrew’s heir; Byzantium was filled by bishops with Antiochian Succession, and elevated in the councils.

Moscow is posessed of Apostolic succession as well, tho’ not as direct as Byzantium.

Every valid bishop has apostolic succession to one or more of the 12.

 

[dzheremi]

This is good news. If you have any links on the missionary efforts in North Africa and Iran, please share.

For the inspiring story of the home church movement in Iran, I can recommend the film A Cry from Iran, about the life and death of Protestant pastor Haik Hovsepian (an Iranian of Armenian ethnicity), and the struggles faced by Christians and evangelists in Iran. It’s a very moving, beautiful story.

About North Africa, that’s mostly come to me through private correspondences with Christians in Morocco and Algeria. There are an awful lot of Christian videos from/about new Christians in those countries on You Tube, too. Here are a few you might like:

An interview with a former Algerian Muslim, now Catholic

Christian Berbers in Algeria arrested for eating during Ramadan (praise God, they were acquitted)

Tunisian Christian song “Sayid el-Masih” (“Jesus Christ”)

A Christian song from Morocco

Christian song from Kabylia (Northern Algeria, Imazighen/Berber stronghold and home of a growing native Christian population.)

 

[Elijahmaria]

It has been my understanding that the Catholic Church has recognized Orthodox jurisdictions also as particular Catholic Churches. In that way it seems strange to me to find discussions of Orthodox Catholic beliefs on a non-Catholic Forum?

Would it not be more in keeping with John Paul II’s teachings concerning Orthodoxy to have an Orthodox Forum on Catholic Answers?

Yes. I do realize there is a regrettable history here on this venue, but that does not mean that one ought to throw out the baby with the Bathwater.

There really is nothing to fear nor is there reason not to grapple with a sometimes stark reality:

In Jesus’ name,

Elijahmaria

 

[KathleenGee]

It has only been in recent times that the Catholic and Orthodox hierarchy could even pray together…

It is that touchy.

I have always been relunctant to enter discussions regarding Orthodoxy because of it, the events and situation complex, and because of my minimal experiences having contact with the Orthodox. I also note others who have gone to Orthodox forums and being Catholic, not having pleasant or very open discussions without the negativity coming out. Sad.

 

[Hesychios]

Actually, that is only a recent change. Less than 100 years ago, Roman Catholic parishes were very ethnic (be they predominantly Irish, Italian, Polish, etc.)

I was baptised into a Polish parish in Chicago, extremely ethnic.

There was a schism in town many years before, because the first generation of Polish immigrants split off into an Old Catholic group that later became the PNCC. So the Archdiocese brought the Resurrection Fathers from Poland and named a Polish Auxiliary bishop to win these people back.

The Archdiocese set up these bounderyless parishes to handle immigrant communities. Not just Poles, but many other immigrant goups. It so happens that the official parish in the neighborhood with the boundery was also mostly Polish, but there were also some Germans and Czechs in the neighborhood.

When on hard times during the great Depression my grandfather (originally from New Orleons of French descent) with several Catholic children swallowed his pride went to the local parish for food assistance. He was refused help and told to go to the French parish many miles across town! That’s how it was.

 

[Nicea325]

Well, the Greeks would have historically contend that they are the real Romans.

Not even close. The Romans came from the Italian peninsula. The Greeks were Roman due to its conquest and later the Byzantine Empire.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hesychios,

I am Welsh Irish and grew up in an Italian immigrant neighborhood, and we went to their mission church. Out of all the Italians, the immigrant Italian pastor invited my father to become a deacon.

The Italian missionary priests pushed very hard for integration and communal meetings among the Italians, Portuguese, Spanish, African, and the rest of us. When any of us would walk into a room with them, they would immediately stop speaking Italian and speak Portuguese so no one would be left out of the conversation.

Not one single person was to be left out of the conversation…This to me is universal Christianity in action. I dislike it very much when people are practically at the same table as I, we have common language, but speak their own tongue in front of me without any regard.

Vatican II helped get people out of the Catholic ghettos in our country, and I have always seen the priests working to get people out of cliques and into a more universal Christian faith.

That is what I was getting at. I do not know of what is going on in Orthodoxy in regards to parishioners reaching out to others and identifying each other as an extension of Christ…the other thing I was getting at.

Just as we Catholics need to learn more about Orthodoxy, and I wish we would go more into mysticism in the Orthodox, I wish the Orthodox would take on disciplined studies as St. Thomas as I did. I think most Roman Catholics in America are being drawn to the east by the preference for icons, art, culture, and the heart after so many hundreds of years of heady theology and doctrines.

I mean, there is alot I would love to learn about Orthodoxy and participate. We are getting new icons up in my parish as well. I have read the works of St. John Climacus and was really nourished in his writings. I am drawn to the desert fathers.
In some ways, we Catholics are now out too much in the world by getting into all the business and loosing the spirit of prayer and sacred worship. There are young people being drawn to the Latin Mass.

I just hate to see fighting between the two Churches…my friends introduced me to their other Catholic friends…they became Orthodox, changed the way they made the sign of the cross…and began fighting…and are no longer friends…

I want East and West to be one.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Not even close. The Romans came from the Italian peninsula. The Greeks were Roman due to its conquest and later the Byzantine Empire.

Funny, do you suppose that the so-called ‘Byzantines’ ever called themselves by that name? No, they continued to refer to themselves as Romans because they were the legitimate successors of the Roman Empire. It is only in the West, where they started to be called ‘Greeks’ and later ‘Byzantines.’ For all they were concerned, the Greek speaking East was still the Roman Empire, and we can see that manifest even when they became an ethnarchy under the Ottomans, where they were given the name ‘Rum’. The distinction between ‘Byzantines’ and ‘Romans’ is a completely modern one with no factual basis in history.

 

[Nicea325]

Funny, do you suppose that the so-called ‘Byzantines’ ever called themselves by that name? No, they continued to refer to themselves as Romans because they were the legitimate successors of the Roman Empire.

Yes because the Eastern Roman Empire east continued until their conquest in 1453 by the Turks.

It is only in the West, where they started to be called ‘Greeks’ and later 'Byzantines

.’

So you mean they were not called “Greeks” throughout history until Rome ruled and after?

For all they were concerned, the Greek speaking East was still the Roman Empire, and we can see that manifest even when they became an ethnarchy under the Ottomans, where they were given the name ‘Rum’. The distinction between ‘Byzantines’ and ‘Romans’ is a completely modern one with no factual basis in history.

I never said the East were not Romans,but their was differences in cultures (language,politics,etc,etc) were different.

Peace my friend

 

[Frank_J]

Hello

Cavaradossi is right… I agree that Catholics should be re-baptized. So that there would not be any questions on them being call Christians. It wouldn’t hurt for them to be re-baptized all they need to do is find someone to do it for them, that is the only question needing to be answered here. ??

I was re-baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia it didn’t hurt me. Why don’t all Latin’s get re-baptized ?? It would clear up any questions concerning their baptisms.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Well, the Greeks would have historically contend that they are the real Romans.

The Greeks already have a wonderful history. They need to back off and not trying to poach other people’s history.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Greeks already have a wonderful history. They need to back off and not trying to poach other people’s history.

If you think that’s bad, you should see what sort of history poaching the Chinese do. I never cease to be amused with my Chinese mother, who among other things insists that the Italians “stole” the concept of pizza from fried Chinese green onion flat breads. As if two cultures couldn’t independently come up with the idea of putting toppings on a piece of flat-bread…

Then again, we also have a joke in our family about Koreans because of how Koreans insist that they invented everything from farming rice and soy to making noodles and dumplings. It goes: the first man to pluck a fish out of the sea was Korean. Actually, I think East Asians (myself included sometimes) in general are the worst when it comes to history poaching, haha.

 

[Hesychios]

…fried Chinese green onion flat breads.

I love these for breakfast …

 

[Cavaradossi]

I love these for breakfast …

Accompanied by shaobing youtiao and a bowl of warm savory soy milk, right?

One friend of mine once told me something to the effect of, “Chinese cuisine is basically comfort food on steroids.” I am inclined to agree.

Now I’ve gone and made myself hungry…

 

[Hesychios]

Accompanied by shaobing youtiao and a bowl of warm savory soy milk, right?

One friend of mine once told me something to the effect of, “Chinese cuisine is basically comfort food on steroids.” I am inclined to agree.

Now I’ve gone and made myself hungry…

I am going back to China for vacation in August for two weeks. I am very excited