Critics of Papal Infallibility: Can you name other examples of popes making fallible decisions apart from Honorius I?

[schaick]

I find it hard to believe that your pastor has never explained a scriptural verse or readings to you guys. There are many statements in Scripture or references to certain cultures, lands, idioms, phrases, characters, etc. that are now obscure and most layfolks don’t understand. Most good preachers explain and dilineate and try to make ideas and references in Scripture tangiable/comprehensible then they try to help the flock to apply it to their lives. That’s always been my understanding in any church I’ve been in protestant or catholic?

I didn’t say that he didn’t explain everything.

We have Bible study and Sunday School and it takes just a sentence - seconds to say for example that the camel in verse following is a type of rope or cable used back in the day.

Matthew 19
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

 

[schaick]

Yeah, that’s right there in the Bible (1 Timothy 3:15, I think right off the top of my head). I see nowhere in the Bible that states the the Bible ALONE is our source of truth.

That is why when I began this journey, as sacramental and liturgical as they are, I could not consider Lutheran Christianity as my way to go, although they have much appeal if not for the SS praxis. Heck, Luther even maintained devotion to Mary.

You do realize that this church is all the people called out and not just the hierarcy of a church?

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Can you show me a verse that says tradition is truth? Can tradition completely furnish man for every good work?

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

throughly furnished g1822 ἐξαρτίζω exartizō

1. to complete, finish
   a) to furnish perfectly
   b) to finish, accomplish, (as it were, to render the days complete)

Just a few verses about GOD’s Word:

Luke 8
11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

John 17
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

Matthew 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

GOD’s Word incarnate - Jesus GOD’s WORD - > Holy Communion/Eucharist we are consuming/becoming in union with GOD’s WORD-HIS Word incarnate

Now do we do that with tradition?

Back to naming an example of falliblity: If you believe in fact that Peter was the first Pope:
Galatians 2
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

 

[guanophore]

What I find unclear are how the Catholic Church has come up with some of their teachings that aren’t in Scripture.

I can see why this would be unclear to you, since Catholics do not derive teachings by extracting them from the Holy Scriptures.

Unlike our “bible based” brethren, Catholics do not “come up with” teachings. The Teachings of the Catholic Church are RECEIVED from those to whom they were committed and preserved through the paradosis.

Catholic Teachings were whole and complete before a word of the NT was ever written. When the Scriptures were penned, there was no effort made to create a complete compendium of the faith, since there was no reason to think that the Holy Scriptures would ever be separated from the Sacred Traditions that produced them.

Although Scripture does reflect the faith of the Apostles, it is not the Source of those Teachings - Jesus is the Source.

What is not addressed that you feel you must know?

We are not permitted to jettison any part of the once for all Divine Deposit of faith. We cannot relinquish that which was handed down to us just because our modern separated brethren cannot “see” those beliefs in their bibles.

 

[guanophore]

I am not sure what to make of the East. Its got my interest, but its so different. Its foreign to me. It seems like its model would be easier to accept when it comes to the idea of infallible church, (no Papal one man council) but its way of explaining the faith is out there to me.

This is not really an accurate representation of papal infallibility. He is not, and never has been, a “one man council”. He is a spokesperson, just as Peter was for the Apostolic college. He cannot proclaim anything infallibly that is not consistent with the Aposotlic faith and Magesterium.

His role is that of Peter - “and Peter stood up among them and said…”

 

[guanophore]

( My wife and kids LOVE our Anglican parish and I have to admit I’m happy there, too, generally. It’s just my nagging doubts and unease about some things about Anglicanism and especially its future that bug me. But like Anna and I agree, running to Catholicism to just get “away” from Anglican chaos is no reason to join. You have to believe in the product to really buy it.

There is room in the catechism for the mental reservations. When one embraces the faith, one does so with an attitude of humble acceptance (like a little child). That means that everything does not have to make sense, or necessarily feel right. For example, children will take medicines from their parents, though all their senses tell them they are disgusting and not good. They do this because they trust the Source.

I don’t think running from the wrong is a bad thing, either. Sometimes all we have to choose from is what appears to be the lesser of two evils.

Acts 2:40

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 

[guanophore]

You do realize that this church is all the people called out and not just the hierarcy of a church?

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Certainly! But do you realize that once the called out ones have separated themselves from the hierarchy they are no longer within the unity of the Church founded by Christ? Jesus Church has shepherds, bishops, deacons, and elders. There is authority, there is a visible avenue through which He ordained that disputes should be resolved. There is unity in His church.

Can you show me a verse that says tradition is truth?

2 Thess 3:6

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Is there some reason you think the apostle would admonish the believers to cling to falsehoods?

Why would the Apostle leave a way of life with them that was not “true”?

Can tradition completely furnish man for every good work?

Of course. What did you think they did before the NT was formed? Do you think that there were no faithful persons full of every good work before the NT?

The Word of God has never been confined to the Scriptures.

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

throughly furnished g1822 ἐξαρτίζω exartizō

1. to complete, finish
   a) to furnish perfectly
   b) to finish, accomplish, (as it were, to render the days complete)

This passage says that scripture is profitable. In what duties is it profitable? It is these duties that equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

Who is responsibile for using scripture to equip the saints?

Eph 4:11-13

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jesus gave gifts to the Church. It is in these offices that Scripture is profitable for the duties assigned to them.

The idea that one can sit down with the Scriptures and equip themselves is found nowhere in the Bible.

It also makes the establishment of a Church a rather useless act.

Just a few verses about GOD’s Word:

Luke 8
11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

If you notice, fifty percent of these seeds fall, sprout, then are lost. It is a very interesting commentary on how one can fall from grace.

John 17
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

And this is about Scripture how?

Matthew 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

GOD’s Word incarnate - Jesus GOD’s WORD - > Holy Communion/Eucharist we are consuming/becoming in union with GOD’s WORD-HIS Word incarnate

It is good that you value Jesus, the Word of God. May He bring you into the fullness of faith.

Now do we do that with tradition?

Clearly you cannot, since your whole faith is predicated upon the Scriptures, which are a product of the Sacred Tradition.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Please provide the verses in the catechism for me about that; I’d appreciate it. Thanks. I don’t totally “trust the source” yet. Working on it. Might never happen. Might indeed. It’s foremost in my prayers. Thanks.

There is room in the catechism for the mental reservations. When one embraces the faith, one does so with an attitude of humble acceptance (like a little child). That means that everything does not have to make sense, or necessarily feel right. For example, children will take medicines from their parents, though all their senses tell them they are disgusting and not good. They do this because they trust the Source.

I don’t think running from the wrong is a bad thing, either. Sometimes all we have to choose from is what appears to be the lesser of two evils.

Acts 2:40

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 

[SemperReformada]

Catholic Teachings were whole and complete before a word of the NT was ever written.

Guanophore,

As you are probably aware there are some Catholic beliefs that have no explicit scriptural support and no historical evidence of existing for several centuries after the apostles.

You obviously believe that all your church’s teachings are apostolic so I am assuming you accept such teachings as the bodily assumption based upon your overall faith and your faith in the Catholic church in particular? Is this correct?

 

[guanophore]

Please provide the verses in the catechism for me about that; I’d appreciate it. Thanks. I don’t totally “trust the source” yet. Working on it. Might never happen. Might indeed. It’s foremost in my prayers. Thanks.

What I see in you and Anna are what the catechism calls “difficulties”.

157 Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but “the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives.” “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.”

You and Anna are also foremost in my prayers.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore,

As you are probably aware there are some Catholic beliefs that have no explicit scriptural support and no historical evidence of existing for several centuries after the apostles.

I am aware that this is the position of my separated brethren that deny the Sacred Tradition, and the living Word of God in the Liturgy of the Church.

The fact that you do not accept the historical evidence does not mean it does not exist, except for yourself.

It is like standing outside in the noonday sun, and declaring that the stars of heaven do not exist, because you cannot see them.

 You obviously believe that all your church's teachings are apostolic so I am assuming you accept such teachings as the bodily assumption based  upon your overall faith and your faith in the Catholic church in particular?  Is this correct?

I do not believe that all of the teachings of the Church are Apostolic. The Rosary, a devotion commonly taught in the Latin Rite, does not come from the Apostles.

Yes, I believe that Jesus brought His Mother to dwell with Him in heaven.

 

[SemperReformada]

I am aware that this is the position of my separated brethren that deny the Sacred Tradition, and the living Word of God in the Liturgy of the Church.

The fact that you do not accept the historical evidence does not mean it does not exist, except for yourself.

It is like standing outside in the noonday sun, and declaring that the stars of heaven do not exist, because you cannot see them.

I do not believe that all of the teachings of the Church are Apostolic. The Rosary, a devotion commonly taught in the Latin Rite, does not come from the Apostles.

Yes, I believe that Jesus brought His Mother to dwell with Him in heaven.

Do you believe the apostles taught about the assumption?

 

[guanophore]

Do you believe the apostles taught about the assumption?

I believe that their preachibg and writings predated her dormition, except for John, who writes about her in his vision of heaven.

There is an apocryphal story that the Apostles gathered at her tomb, and entered to find her body gone, and they “assumed” her Son had come and taken her.

I think the apostles were concentrating on Christ, and the status of His Mother was very peripheral. The Marian doctrines all emerged out of clarification of doctrine in response to heresies about the nature of Christ.

 

[SemperReformada]

I believe that their preachibg and writings predated her dormition, except for John, who writes about her in his vision of heaven.

There is an apocryphal story that the Apostles gathered at her tomb, and entered to find her body gone, and they “assumed” her Son had come and taken her.

I think the apostles were concentrating on Christ, and the status of His Mother was very peripheral. The Marian doctrines all emerged out of clarification of doctrine in response to heresies about the nature of Christ.

Guanophore,

Thanks for your repsonse but I have no idea if you believe the assumption was taught by the apostles. Do you believe the bodily assumption of Mary was taught by the apostles?

 

[schaick]

I can see why this would be unclear to you, since Catholics do not derive teachings by extracting them from the Holy Scriptures.

Unlike our “bible based” brethren, Catholics do not “come up with” teachings. The Teachings of the Catholic Church are RECEIVED from those to whom they were committed and preserved through the paradosis.

Catholic Teachings were whole and complete before a word of the NT was ever written. When the Scriptures were penned, there was no effort made to create a complete compendium of the faith, since there was no reason to think that the Holy Scriptures would ever be separated from the Sacred Traditions that produced them.

Although Scripture does reflect the faith of the Apostles, it is not the Source of those Teachings - Jesus is the Source.

We are not permitted to jettison any part of the once for all Divine Deposit of faith. We cannot relinquish that which was handed down to us just because our modern separated brethren cannot “see” those beliefs in their bibles.

Yes, Jesus told/lived the Good News message and it is from that message that the Scripture comes.

**I would like to see proof that in that original message there were statements that support the Mary Dogmas, Pope infallibility, etc.

Proof that a deposit was made with the Disciples and passed down.**

 

[schaick]

Certainly! But do you realize that once the called out ones have separated themselves from the hierarchy they are no longer within the unity of the Church founded by Christ? Jesus Church has shepherds, bishops, deacons, and elders. There is authority, there is a visible avenue through which He ordained that disputes should be resolved. There is unity in His church.

2 Thess 3:6

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Is there some reason you think the apostle would admonish the believers to cling to falsehoods?

Why would the Apostle leave a way of life with them that was not “true”?

Of course. What did you think they did before the NT was formed? Do you think that there were no faithful persons full of every good work before the NT?

The Word of God has never been confined to the Scriptures.

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

throughly furnished g1822 ἐξαρτίζω exartizō

1. to complete, finish
   a) to furnish perfectly
   b) to finish, accomplish, (as it were, to render the days complete)

This passage says that scripture is profitable. In what duties is it profitable? It is these duties that equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

Who is responsibile for using scripture to equip the saints?

Eph 4:11-13

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jesus gave gifts to the Church. It is in these offices that Scripture is profitable for the duties assigned to them.

The idea that one can sit down with the Scriptures and equip themselves is found nowhere in the Bible.

It also makes the establishment of a Church a rather useless act.

If you notice, fifty percent of these seeds fall, sprout, then are lost. It is a very interesting commentary on how one can fall from grace.

And this is about Scripture how?

It is good that you value Jesus, the Word of God. May He bring you into the fullness of faith.

Clearly you cannot, since your whole faith is predicated upon the Scriptures, which are a product of the Sacred Tradition.

Jesus speaks about not following man-made traditions.

GOD’s Word was passed orally until recording it began shortly after the death of Jesus.

Prove that the Word of GOD was not confined to Scripture. Prove that there was a “deposit of faith”.

Scripture is profitable yes and it completely furnishes a person for good works. Not just duties in the ministry but “equipped for every good work”.- walking in a life of righteousness.

We are all responsible in supporting each other in their walk of righteousness -giving encouragement to the Australian nun that tried to uncover the pediphile Priest and encouragement to the Elders/Deacons correcting the Priest walking a stuffed pig across the altar, etc.

Seminaries equip, fellow Pastors equip fellow Pastors, etc.

Jesus gave various gifts to all of us - not just the Church. Of course a Church is still needed for fellowship, support, inspiration, teaching, learning, helping us each find our gift.

LOL! That was supposed to be:
John 17
17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Your non answer and redirect implies that no we can not. You accuse me of basing my faith on truth supported with evidence.

THANK YOU!!

Yes you can say that my faith is predicated on GOD’s Word spoken or written that has been proven and recorded as Scripture so that it can never be changed or added to by man.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore,

Thanks for your repsonse but I have no idea if you believe the assumption was taught by the apostles. Do you believe the bodily assumption of Mary was taught by the apostles?

Sorry, Semper. I don’t know another way to respond to you. As far as I can tell, the preaching, writing, and martrydom of most of the Apostles occurred prior to the passing of the Theotokos. It seems you are asking me if they talked about something that had not yet occurred, I would have to say no. The exception is John, who was the Apostle who was closest to her. His Gospel and Revelation were written much later than the other writings of the NT. In His Gospel he alone demonstrates Jesus referring to Mary as “Woman” (the new Eve), shows how much He honored her during His lifetime here on earth, and portrays her dwelling in heaven as the Ark of the Covenant.

The once for all deposit of faith is not confined to the Apostles, though we consider the public revelation of Christ completed at the death of that last Apostle.

The Church does not have the authority to pronounce dogma over anything that is outside of that once for all deposit of faith.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, Jesus told/lived the Good News message and it is from that message that the Scripture comes.

**I would like to see proof that in that original message there were statements that support the Mary Dogmas, Pope infallibility, etc.

Proof that a deposit was made with the Disciples and passed down.**

I am afraid this will not be possible in your case, schaick, since you reject all the evidence that exists.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus speaks about not following man-made traditions.

No, He does not. He speaks agains following man made traditions that nullify the Word of God. He had no problem with man made traditions. He wore the same clothing, at the same food, and followed the same customs as His people. There is nothing inherintly wrong with man made traditions.

GOD’s Word was passed orally until recording it began shortly after the death of Jesus.

This is a modern evangelical innovation that is not found in scripture. There is no reason that the Word of God should stop being passed because some of it was written down.

Prove that the Word of GOD was not confined to Scripture. Prove that there was a “deposit of faith”.

This is like you standing out oun my yard at noon, and demanding “prove to me there are stars in the sky”.

It is not possible to convince anyone of something who will not accept the evidence.

Scripture is profitable yes and it completely furnishes a person for good works.

That is not what the text says, schaick. It says it is profitable THAT the man of God may be equipped. There is nothing in scripture that supports this concept,and this concept contradicts many other scriptures, as well as the notion that, if it were true, Jesus founded a useless Church.

Not just duties in the ministry but “equipped for every good work”.- walking in a life of righteousness.

Yes, walking in a life of righteousness is what we are all called to do, and be equipped for the work of the ministry. This is the duty of those God has appointed and authorized to teach.

We are all responsible in supporting each other in their walk of righteousness

Indeed we are, but not all of us are especially gifted and authorized to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

  Seminaries equip, fellow Pastors equip fellow Pastors, etc.

Yes, many are now being equipped with deficient tools.

Jesus gave various gifts to all of us - not just the Church. Of course a Church is still needed for fellowship, support, inspiration, teaching, learning, helping us each find our gift.

Well, schaick, you are not in a position to create a definition of the Church, fortunately. The Churche’s function and design belongs to Jesus, not to you. You are artificially severing Christ from His Church, and the believers from the Church. You are suffering from a deficient concept of the nature and function of the Church.

John 17
17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Do you honestly believe that Jesus is confined to the pages of Holy Scripture?

Your non answer and redirect implies that no we can not. You accuse me of basing my faith on truth supported with evidence.

It is good to base one’s faith upon truth supported by evidence. A person who rejects part of the evidence will suffer from a deficient concept of the faith.

Yes you can say that my faith is predicated on GOD’s Word spoken or written that has been proven and recorded as Scripture so that it can never be changed or added to by man.

Part of the evidence that you reject, schaick, is that Catholics added to the Scripture. The CC wrote, preserved, promulgated and canonized the entire NT. It is written by, for, and about Catholics, and there is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

 

[ron77nyc]

The CC wrote, preserved, promulgated and canonized the entire NT. It is written by, for, and about Catholics, and there is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

The following are in the bible but are not Catholic:

Peter was married.
Matthew 8:14 When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

The apostles had wives.
1 Corinthians 9:5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

No exaltation of the pope.
Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”

 

[guanophore]

The following are in the bible but are not Catholic:

Peter was married.
Matthew 8:14 When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

Peter is our first Pope. How can you say he is not Catholic? Do you think marriage is “not Catholic”? Honestly, I have to wonder what benefit you get out of spreading lies about the Catholic faith. It is a very dangerous practice.

 The apostles had wives.

1 Corinthians 9:5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

Some of them did, certainly. Some modern Catholic priests have wives. What is uncatholic about that?

  No exaltation of the pope.

Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”

It is not Catholic to worship people. Humans are creatures, and should not be worshipped, as this is only for God.

If you choose to show no respect for the Pope when you meet him, that is your affair. We treat him as we would Christ, as he is our representative of our chief shepherd.