Critics of Papal Infallibility: Can you name other examples of popes making fallible decisions apart from Honorius I?

[The_Sentry]

If I understand correctly (which I probably don’t and therefore would appreciate a Catholic’s correction), it sounds like the teaching office is seen as distinct from the actions. Is that close? Thus, even if an immoral man becomes Pope, God the Holy Spirit prevents that man from making infallible declarations that would harm the Church. Instead, no matter how messed up one might be personally, his “faith and morals” pronouncements (which are binding) are things which are true. Of course, his personal life does matter - we’re just speaking of how God protects the office of the Papacy and prevents “bad guys” from saying things to harm the Church.

Am I on the right track?

 

[Petergee]

If I understand correctly (which I probably don’t and therefore would appreciate a Catholic’s correction), it sounds like the teaching office is seen as distinct from the actions. Is that close? Thus, even if an immoral man becomes Pope, God the Holy Spirit prevents that man from making infallible declarations that would harm the Church. Instead, no matter how messed up one might be personally, his “faith and morals” pronouncements (which are binding) are things which are true. Of course, his personal life does matter - we’re just speaking of how God protects the office of the Papacy and prevents “bad guys” from saying things to harm the Church.

Am I on the right track?

Yes that’s it in a nutshell. Popes are infallible, they are not “immaculate” or “impeccable” (incapable of sin).

e.g. some popes have fornicated and some have kept slaves and encouraged others to do so, but no pope has ever made a universal pronouncement that fornication or slavery are moral.

There have been a dozen or so popes who were publicly and grossly immoral in their lifestyle, but of course every pope has been immoral to a greater or lesser extent. Though it is remarkable that the vast majority of popes including all those of the past 470 years have been men of outstanding goodness. A record that stands up very well against any other similar line of people over a long period, say for example the monarchs of England or the Presidents of the USA.

One correction to what you said: A purportedly infallible declaration that was not actually true, would not only harm the Church, it would destroy the Church completely. Because it would mean that the Church would be not what she has always claimed to be and that Christ lied when He said the Holy Spirit would guide His Church into all truth and protect her from ever falling into error.

 

[ron77nyc]

Yes that’s it in a nutshell. Popes are infallible, they are not “immaculate” or “impeccable” (incapable of sin).

e.g. some popes have fornicated and some have kept slaves and encouraged others to do so, but no pope has ever made a universal pronouncement that fornication or slavery are moral.

! Corinthians 5 addresses this issue.

7 Know you not that a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump ? 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us feast, not with the old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in an epistle, not to keep company with fornicators. 10 I mean not with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or the extortioners, or the servers of idols; otherwise you must needs go out of this world. 11 But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one, not so much as to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them that are without ? Do not you judge them that are within ? 13 For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves.

 

[schaick]

! Corinthians 5 addresses this issue.

7 Know you not that a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump ? 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us feast, not with the old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in an epistle, not to keep company with fornicators. 10 I mean not with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or the extortioners, or the servers of idols; otherwise you must needs go out of this world. 11 But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one, not so much as to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them that are without ? Do not you judge them that are within ? 13 For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves.

Thank you for those Bible verses.

And yet Catholics believe the Holy Spirit doesn’t come to the called and ordained minister who lives a spirit filled life where the fruits of the spirit can be seen, who does belong to Christ is seen as incapable of consecrating the Eucharist-so that there is Real Presence. The Holy Spirit won’t come to him?

Except when he performs baptisms and marriages?

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Has the following become an infallible statement yet? Do you think it will?:
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea1.asp

 

[ron77nyc]

Infallibility is a charism, according to Catholicism, given to the pope when he speaks officially about morality and theological matters binding to the consciences of the faithfull in the Church. It is only when teaching in an official capacity about faith and morals.

A charism is a divinely inspired gift or power. Teaching everything correctly is not an evidence of having any gift other than being intelligent enough to learn, interpret and teach. The Pharisees were masters at doing that. Were they infallible?

I agree with KevnLee; having all the right answers does not make the Church triumph over the gates of hell.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not sure why you’re challenging me here. I never said I even believe in this charism. I said this is what Catholics believe in general. You’re preaching to the choir, as they say.

A charism is a divinely inspired gift or power. Teaching everything correctly is not an evidence of having any gift other than being intelligent enough to learn, interpret and teach. The Pharisees were masters at doing that. Were they infallible?

I agree with KevnLee; having all the right answers does not make the Church triumph over the gates of hell.

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m not sure why you’re challenging me here. I never said I even believe in this charism. I said this is what Catholics believe in general. You’re preaching to the choir, as they say.

It’s not a challenge. I’m just thinking out loud.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Gotcha, ron. Hey, so are you a supporter of infallibility or? Also, when you said getting all the answers right won’t keep the gates of hell at bay, what exactly do you think will keep the gates of hell at bay? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. I’m currently working through a lot of theological issues and caught between Anglicanism and Catholicism, a whole lot of pressure with all this stuff, and I like to hear different perspectives on issues like this. Thanks, ron.

It’s not a challenge. I’m just thinking out loud.

 

[ron77nyc]

Gotcha, ron. Hey, so are you a supporter of infallibility or?

I do not believe all popes have proclaimed the truth properly or have represented the true teachings of the Church as you can see if you’ve been following the conversation. Leaders have to lead by example especially if they claim to be Christ’s representative on earth. If the leader walks crooked his followers walk the same way.

Also, when you said getting all the answers right won’t keep the gates of hell at bay, what exactly do you think will keep the gates of hell at bay? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. I’m currently working through a lot of theological issues and caught between Anglicanism and Catholicism, a whole lot of pressure with all this stuff, and I like to hear different perspectives on issues like this. Thanks, ron.

Paying attention to what the apostles taught in the bible to the first generation of believers would be a good place to start; that would include not only knowing what pleases God but also doing it. When you add too much to the gospel message people only get confused. They learn so much that they forget what Jesus taught: "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” Jesus wants to unburden and give peace. If you don’t know how Jesus thinks and acts you won’t know if his representative is following his example.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Ron,

What makes you stay Catholic? It’s pretty tough to feel that way with your view of the papacy and truly be a Catholic…?

I do not believe all popes have proclaimed the truth properly or have represented the true teachings of the Church as you can see if you’ve been following the conversation. Leaders have to lead by example especially if they claim to be Christ’s representative on earth. If the leader walks crooked his followers walk the same way.

Paying attention to what the apostles taught in the bible to the first generation of believers would be a good place to start; that would include not only knowing what pleases God but also doing it. When you add too much to the gospel message people only get confused. They learn so much that they forget what Jesus taught: "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” Jesus wants to unburden and give peace. If you don’t know how Jesus thinks and acts you won’t know if his representative is following his example.

 

[KevnLee]

Yes that’s it in a nutshell. Popes are infallible, they are not “immaculate” or “impeccable” (incapable of sin).

e.g. some popes have fornicated and some have kept slaves and encouraged others to do so, but no pope has ever made a universal pronouncement that fornication or slavery are moral.

There have been a dozen or so popes who were publicly and grossly immoral in their lifestyle, but of course every pope has been immoral to a greater or lesser extent. Though it is remarkable that the vast majority of popes including all those of the past 470 years have been men of outstanding goodness. A record that stands up very well against any other similar line of people over a long period, say for example the monarchs of England or the Presidents of the USA.

One correction to what you said: A purportedly infallible declaration that was not actually true, would not only harm the Church, it would destroy the Church completely. Because it would mean that the Church would be not what she has always claimed to be and that Christ lied when He said the Holy Spirit would guide His Church into all truth and protect her from ever falling into error.

Brothers and sisters in Christ. You are clearly trying to defend the indefensible. It is clear that nothing anyone says is going to make you see otherwise even though the evidence is right in front of you, the history books are open for all to read however you seem to think that it is completely irrelevent. I pray that the scales will fall from your eyes and you clearly see the truth. Im not saying you need to leave the catholic church, I believe we are all saved by grace through Jesus Christ alone irrespective of our denomination, im just saying I hope you will be able to see that the pope is a sinner saved by grace just like you and me and you need to read the bible for youself instead of blindly accepting another mans private interpretation. I know you will say that we blindly accept the words of eg white and some in our church probably do However I havent read her writings I only read the bible. Im a seventh day adventist (after 15 years in pentecostal churchs) because of what the bible says not what eg white says. I pray that you will be a roman catholic because of what you see the bible saying and not because of what the pope says.
Your brother in Christ sincerely Kevin

 

[Louie1983]

I do not believe all popes have proclaimed the truth properly or have represented the true teachings of the Church as you can see if you’ve been following the conversation. Leaders have to lead by example especially if they claim to be Christ’s representative on earth. If the leader walks crooked his followers walk the same way.

Paying attention to what the apostles taught in the bible to the first generation of believers would be a good place to start; that would include not only knowing what pleases God but also doing it. When you add too much to the gospel message people only get confused. They learn so much that they forget what Jesus taught: "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” Jesus wants to unburden and give peace. If you don’t know how Jesus thinks and acts you won’t know if his representative is following his example.

Hi everyone,

I have come into this conversation very late so this may have been answered previously.

Ron77 by your comments above how do you determine what is truth and what isn’t? Popes have been scandalous in the past but there have also been great popes. The church and the popes have followed christ’s example by continuing to preach the truth in season and out.

OK fair enough some have not acted in the proper manner but they are only human, peter the first pope cut off a gurards ear, does this mean he does not preach the truth?

Remember our lord promised infallibility not impeccability.

 

[Louie1983]

Brothers and sisters in Christ. You are clearly trying to defend the indefensible. It is clear that nothing anyone says is going to make you see otherwise even though the evidence is right in front of you, the history books are open for all to read however you seem to think that it is completely irrelevent. I pray that the scales will fall from your eyes and you clearly see the truth. Im not saying you need to leave the catholic church, I believe we are all saved by grace through Jesus Christ alone irrespective of our denomination, im just saying I hope you will be able to see that the pope is a sinner saved by grace just like you and me and you need to read the bible for youself instead of blindly accepting another mans private interpretation.

***No-one is disputing the fact that the pope is a sinner. However christ did promise that his church will be guided by the holy spirit therefore it can not teach error. If I were to read the bible and interpret it for myself how do I know it’s the truth? why does one christian denomination teach differently to others (homosexuality, abortion etc,)? This is why Chirst gave the church and the popes the gift of infallibility so we can know the truth.

The church/magisterium and it’s structure has been backed by the earliest church fathers some who were taught by the apostles themselves.***

I

 

[ron77nyc]

Hi Ron,

What makes you stay Catholic? It’s pretty tough to feel that way with your view of the papacy and truly be a Catholic…?

I don’t have a problem with priests and nuns. The bishops are corrupt.
I go to the Catholic Church to receive the sacraments because I was raised in the Catholic faith but I go to a Protestant Evangelical church to learn the bible. I don’t see a conflict.

 

[Louie1983]

I don’t have a problem with priests and nuns. The bishops are corrupt.
I go to the Catholic Church to receive the sacraments because I was raised in the Catholic faith but I go to a Protestant Evangelical church to learn the bible. I don’t see a conflict.

Hi Ron,

There could be a severe conflict because what the church teaches about what is said in the bible can be very different from what another denomination teaches.

What makes you think that bishops are corrupt? OK some have acted improper to the faith by there are just as many who loyal servants to the church/pope/christ.

If you delve more into the catholic faith you will see that the catholic faith is very biblical.

Here’s a site that has helped me if you would like to have a browse :scripturecatholic.com

 

[joe370]

In my discussions with critics of papal infallibility, Honorius I is always mentioned for the monothelite heresy and his part in it. I do not want to discuss Honorius. We’ve done that in depth. But what I’d like to discuss is the topic of other examples of popes making fallible decisions if papal infallibility is supposedly not true? Most people would point out that the papacy has an amazingly awesome track record of holy teachings, strong moral stances, and excellent theological guidance for the Church. Honorius is pretty much the only example that opponents of infallibility can point to and debate with some success. But I rarely hear other popes challenged as fallible. I’d love to hear everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut and thoughts on this. Blessings to all.

Gurney, are you referring to an infallible decision (like the Immaculate Conception) - by a Pope that was later abrogated by a different Pope?

 

[ron77nyc]

Ron77 by your comments above how do you determine what is truth and what isn’t?

For me-----it’s a life-long process; not a one time decision.

Remember our lord promised infallibility not impeccability.

He didn’t say that. He said the gates of hell will not prevail.

 

[Louie1983]

For me-----it’s a life-long process; not a one time decision.

***Then what was the point of Jesus establishing a church on earth to preach the truth? Why give peter the keys? Why give the apostles to bind and loose sin? ***He didn’t say that.

He said the gates of hell will not prevail.

That’s right, meaning church will not teach error because he is guiding it. It’s about truth.

 

[ron77nyc]

Hi Ron,

There could be a severe conflict because what the church teaches about what is said in the bible can be very different from what another denomination teaches.

What if there isn’t? The message at the other denomination that I attend says to walk in obedience and trust God completely. How does that conflict with Catholicism?

What makes you think that bishops are corrupt? OK some have acted improper to the faith by there are just as many who loyal servants to the church/pope/christ.

The culture of secrecy. They are disobedient to the teaching of St. Paul.
Ephesians 5:8 walk as children of Light 9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

If you delve more into the catholic faith you will see that the catholic faith is very biblical.

I know they are very biblical but they don’t have bible study.

Here’s a site that has helped me if you would like to have a browse :scripturecatholic.com

Thanks, I’ll take a look at it.

 

[ron77nyc]

That’s right, meaning church will not teach error because he is guiding it. It’s about truth.

A few of us have already commented on this. If you have the truth that doesn’t mean you will be OK. You need to obey the truth also.