Critics of Papal Infallibility: Can you name other examples of popes making fallible decisions apart from Honorius I?

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Louie1983 said:
Would an orthodox apologist ever mention someone who said things that conflicted with orthodoxy? 🤷
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When you are quoting a particular father trying to prove the Church always accepted papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction then context is important. The reality is it’s usually not a case of the apologist attempting to be dishonest, it’s just they have simply never heard the contradictory quotes before.

In Christ
Joe
 
elvisman said:
Actually - I already gave you statement from augustine about his belief in the global jurisdiction of the Peter - and his successors, whom he lists by name.

The fact that you reject this quote or can’t deal with it is your folly - not mine. :rolleyes:
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My only folly was hoping to have a rational discussion based on what the quotes actually say, instead of reading modern Catholic teaching back into a 1500 year old quote. I should have known better by now. 🤷
 
Louie1983 said:
Would an orthodox apologist ever mention someone who said things that conflicted with orthodoxy? 🤷
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One would hope that people are actually interested in the truth. Manipulating information to win an argument is dishonest and evil.
 
josephdaniel29 said:
When you are quoting a particular father trying to prove the Church always accepted papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction then context is important. The reality is it’s usually not a case of the apologist attempting to be dishonest, it’s just they have simply never heard the contradictory quotes before.

In Christ
Joe
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True, but there have been church fathers who said one thing and then relaised the truth afterwards and changed their stance.

It happens.
 
elvisman said:
The Church did not decide the canon - the Holy Spirit did. The Church declared this truth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The fact that the Church would be guided into ALL truth was guaranteed by Jesus himself in John 16:12-15.

Secondly - your claim that Papal infallibility has been exercised only twice is a patently FALSE statement. They may be the only 2 infallible dogmatic declarations - but they are hardly the only 2 infallible declarations.

**Every time the Pope declares the canonization of a saint - it is an infallible **declaration. Whenever he states, “We define” or “I define” - he is exercising infallibility.

Finally - as I stated before - the written word of God is already infallible because it is God-breathed.
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Hi elvisman.

The Pope declare the canonization of a Saint.:confused:I thought the scriptures say we are all saints.
 
elvisman said:
Again - I have to ask - HOW am I anti-Orthodox?
**Apparently I’m not **or you would have pointed out how you can make this claim. 🤷
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Saying the Orthodox Church is wrong, since you were accusing someone of being anti-Catholic for doing the exact same thing.
 
josephdaniel29 said:
My only folly was hoping to have a rational discussion based on what the quotes actually say, instead of reading modern Catholic teaching back into a 1500 year old quote. I should have known better by now. 🤷
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***I called your statement into question because it’s simply ***not true. Your words:
“St Augustine never made a single statement in support of the universal jurisdiction of the pope or papal infallibility.”
**I provided some quotes which you simply rejected – as if that somehow disqualifies them. **
**Just as famous anti-Catholic James White rejects the famous quote from Augustine’s Sermon 131 on Pelagianism, “Roma locuta est, causa finita est” (Rome has spoken the case is closed), because of it’s wording – you also reject his statements supporting the Holy See because of some semantic reason. **
*A brief reading of Augustine’s Sermon (131) uncovers the fact that although he did not say the exact words, “Rome has spoken the case is closed” *– his sentiment was precisely that. He said: **
“For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see (Pope); and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue.”
 
shaky said:
Hi elvisman.

The Pope declare the canonization of a Saint.:confused:I thought the scriptures say we are all saints.
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I’ve never seen the verse that say ALL are saints.
Would you care to provide that?
 
Nine_Two said:
Saying the Orthodox Church is wrong, since you were accusing someone of being anti-Catholic for doing the exact same thing.
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I never even implied that the Orthodox Church was wrong about anything.**
**I was saying that 2 posters on this forum were wrong.

I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t bear false witness against me. 🤷
 
elvisman said:
I never even implied** that the Orthodox Church was wrong about anything.
**I was saying that 2 *posters ***on this forum were wrong.

I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t bear false witness against me. 🤷
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So you’re saying you believe the Catholic Church is correct about everything, the Orthodox Church is correct on everything, and if someone who is Orthodox points out why this is wrong, he or she must be anti-Catholic?

Alright, my apologies for calling you anti-Orthodox for saying we’re wrong. You’re anti-Orthodox because of your quick willingness to dismiss as anti-Catholic any Orthodox poster who follows a logical train of thought and says that the Catholic Church is of necessity wrong on certain points if the Orthodox Church is to be correct.

How’s that?

I’ll be honest, I’m just sick and tired of Catholics throwing around the “anti-Catholic” thing every time someone disagrees with the Catholic Church. Guess what, if people didn’t have disagreements with the Catholic Church, they’d be Catholic. Just like if you truly had no disagreements with the Orthodox Church you’d be Orthodox, but they hold mutually exclusive positions, so the fact that you aren’t Orthodox says you disagree with us on certain points.
This doesn’t mean you’re anti-Catholic.

Anti-Catholic is saying the pope is the Anti-Christ, and that the Jesuits are a Papal conspiracy to take over the world. Honest disagreement is not anti-Catholic.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
QUOTE]but he was speaking to Pseudo Christians to prove the True Catholic Christian church Jesus founded and proving to them if they do not follow or have Apostolic succession from Peter there teachings are not from Jesus Christ.
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Yes he was ,and that is why he says these pseudo churches need to get in line with Petrine teachings ,which you get from Peterine /Pauline succession.These "pseudos churches are to get in line with the “Church”-Not Roman Catholic Church…
Pope Clement who later addressed the Corinthian Church from a “great letter” which addressed a Church discipline (correction) to the Corinthian Church
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Clement may have been the author ,but he wrote in the name of the entire Roman church. Perhaps as some wrote for Paul. Clement does not put his name to it .Perhaps he was humble or perhaps there were many bishops of Rome (there were) and indeed tradition had not evolved yet to “Pope”/head bishop.
You were incorrect in stating that no one listed the Popes who succeeded from Peter.
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Never said that. I have said Iraneus is only halfway there to todays’ understanding of succession .There are other lists .Several do not agree in order of 2-5.

I
We need not speak of Tertullians personal opinions outside of Catholicism, which endangered his salvation and repented.
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Cyprian and Augustine needed repenting also ,for they renigged on some elements of popery or rockmass being Peter (Augustine) ???Cyprian The Unity of Catholic church 2nd revision ,not the first .and The Fathers of the Church -the Retractions
Protestant who rejects Catholicism all together,
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Very broad stroke .I may feel that way sometimes ,but never stated it or the Spirit stops me fully succumbing.I pray to eschew what is wrong and uphold what is right ,in any part of the Body of Christ. t.
Sorry but your Waldenses, Albigenses did not exist yet for another 12OO years or more,
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.Sorry .I thought I read one of those two had 2nd century roots ,in northern italy/france .Would have to research more, but it seemed pretty legit. thanks .
 
elvisman said:
***I called your statement into question because it’s simply ***not true. Your words:
“St Augustine never made a single statement in support of the universal jurisdiction of the pope or papal infallibility.”
I provided some quotes which you simply rejected – as if that somehow disqualifies them.
Just as famous anti-Catholic James White rejects the famous quote from Augustine’s Sermon 131 on Pelagianism, “Roma locuta est, causa finita est” (Rome has spoken the case is closed), because of it’s wording – you also reject his statements supporting the Holy See because of some semantic reason.
A brief reading of Augustine’s Sermon (131) uncovers the fact that although he did not say the exact words, “Rome* has spoken the case is closed” *– his sentiment was precisely that. He said:
“For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see (Pope); and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue.”
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I’m not rejecting them, I’m saying they don’t say what you are claiming. 🤷
 
Nine_Two said:
That seemed to be the argument of the person I was quoting.
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Well I certainly don’t perceive you like that - anti catholic. Just too orthodox:p:thumbsup:

You have your opinions, I have mine.
 
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