Critics of Papal Infallibility: Can you name other examples of popes making fallible decisions apart from Honorius I?

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So, basically, in his Bull, Quia quorundam of 1324, Pope John XXII was outraged when he heard some Franciscans proposed papal infallibility. And he called the following statement a lie, inspired by the “Father of lies”: **"'What the Roman Pontiffs have once defined in faith and morals stands so immutably that it is not permitted to a successor to revoke it." **

Interesting and disturbing. However, I realize this must be taken in the contest of history and the conflict between Pope John XXII and the Franciscans.

Hopefully Catholics will weigh in.

Anna
I find it fascinating, upon reading Quia quorundam that John XXII actually seems to say right off the bat that the doctrine of irreformable doctrine actually comes from the “Father of Lies” himself. Wow. franciscan-archive.org/bullarium/qquor-e.html

Anyone want to weigh in on this?
So, basically, in his Bull, Quia quorundam of 1324, Pope John XXII was outraged when he heard some Franciscans proposed papal infallibility. And he called the following statement a lie, inspired by the “Father of lies”: **"'What the Roman Pontiffs have once defined in faith and morals stands so immutably that it is not permitted to a successor to revoke it." **

Interesting and disturbing. However, I realize this must be taken in the context of history and the conflict between Pope John XXII and the Franciscans.

Hopefully Catholics will weigh in.

Anna
 
Anyone want to weigh in on this?
I think he was on to something there, I have felt the same way about it for a long time…

But Papal infallibility was never my big concern. I know it is shocking to many but not to me, it follows logically from Papal universal jurisdiction.
 
Hi Michael,

What was your big concern then about Catholicism?
I think he was on to something there, I have felt the same way about it for a long time…

But Papal infallibility was never my big concern. I know it is shocking to many but not to me, it follows logically from Papal universal jurisdiction.
 
Hi Michael,

What was your big concern then about Catholicism?
Actually, it was Papal universal jurisdiction.

If I believed it, I would be able to accept Papal infallibility.

It goes like this:


  1. *]The church, the Body of Christ, has infallibility in some sense. (See Matt 28:6-20) I think most Christians can agree with that statement, even if they are not sure exactly how this ‘infallibility’ manifests. Orthodox certainly also have a concept of the infallibility of the church.
    *]If one man is responsible for everything in the church, from doorkeepers and groundskeepers to theologians and canons, it stands to reason that the infallibility of the church resides in that one man, at least in some sense.

    I have always accepted that proposition.

    The problem for me is that Papal universal jurisdiction is ahistoric. It isn’t found in the early church, not even in the medieval church, and I spent years trying to convince myself of it, I eventually had to accept the fact that it’s just not there. For a long time that realization was a shock and a disappointment.
 
Actually, it was Papal universal jurisdiction.

If I believed it, I would be able to accept Papal infallibility.

It goes like this:


  1. *]The church, the Body of Christ, has infallibility in some sense. (See Matt 28:6-20) I think most Christians can agree with that statement, even if they are not sure exactly how this ‘infallibility’ manifests. Orthodox certainly also have a concept of the infallibility of the church.
    *]If one man is responsible for everything in the church, from doorkeepers and groundskeepers to theologians and canons, it stands to reason that the infallibility of the church resides in that one man, at least in some sense.

    I have always accepted that proposition.

    The problem for me is that Papal universal jurisdiction is ahistoric. It isn’t found in the early church, not even in the medieval church, and I spent years trying to convince myself of it, I eventually had to accept the fact that it’s just not there. For a long time that realization was a shock and a disappointment.

  1. Hesychios,

    I’m concerned about this too–the lack of evidence for a “Papal universal jurisdiction” in the early Church. Catholics keep repeating the Scriptures regarding Peter/Rock/Keys; but these Scriptures do not prove the Catholic position of primacy and authority over all of Christendom. The need to discuss this is not intended to offend Catholics in any way. It is a serious issue for any of us considering Catholicism.

    Anna
 
In my discussions with critics of papal infallibility, Honorius I is always mentioned for the monothelite heresy and his part in it. I do not want to discuss Honorius. We’ve done that in depth. But what I’d like to discuss is the topic of other examples of popes making fallible decisions if papal infallibility is supposedly not true? Most people would point out that the papacy has an amazingly awesome track record of holy teachings, strong moral stances, and excellent theological guidance for the Church. Honorius is pretty much the only example that opponents of infallibility can point to and debate with some success. But I rarely hear other popes challenged as fallible. I’d love to hear everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut and thoughts on this. Blessings to all.
“A small ant-hill can turn over a huge load”
  • rough translation of a Danish proverb.
If the Bishop of Rome is infallible in the sense that the RC church claims that he is, then NO Bishop of Rome can EVER have taught heterodoxy. If ANY did, then we have one of two situations:

1: NO Bishop of Rome is infallible
2: Any given Bishop of Rome MIGHT be infallible…and might not be.

Those are the only two options.
 
I totally understand that, LutheranDK. Understood completely. I’m merely asking as the OP for Protestants to make their case apart from Honorius I. He is the poster boy for a fallible papacy by papal critics and I find their argument compelling. I’m merely asking for other cases if there are any. John XXII seems like another. Do you have any you’d like to add?
“A small ant-hill can turn over a huge load”
  • rough translation of a Danish proverb.
If the Bishop of Rome is infallible in the sense that the RC church claims that he is, then NO Bishop of Rome can EVER have taught heterodoxy. If ANY did, then we have one of two situations:

1: NO Bishop of Rome is infallible
2: Any given Bishop of Rome MIGHT be infallible…and might not be.

Those are the only two options.
 
I totally understand that, LutheranDK. Understood completely. I’m merely asking as the OP for Protestants to make their case apart from Honorius I. He is the poster boy for a fallible papacy by papal critics and I find their argument compelling. I’m merely asking for other cases if there are any. John XXII seems like another. Do you have any you’d like to add?
Not one that I can document. I do remember reading a quote from a pope centuries ago who said something to the effect of “The Catholic Church can never be wrong about anything”, but I can’t remember who it was, and I can’t find the quote. Ergo, I’m not going to claim it as an example.
 
This Infallibility article from the Catholic Encyclopedia makes this claim, “The broad fact, therefore, remains certain that no ex cathedra definition of any pope has ever been shown to be erroneous.” I think this is the only position the Catholic Church can take without causing the claim of infallibility to crumble.

Evidently, when a Pope acts “under pressure of a very cruel coercion” or a Pope is not a “profound or acute theologian” and allows “himself to be confused and misled” by some “wily” person, his actions don’t count.

Link: newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
(Emphasis is mine throughout.)

Infallibility

Objections alleged

The only noteworthy objections against papal infallibility, as distinct from the infallibility of the Church at large, are based on certain historical instances in which it is alleged that certain popes in the ex cathedra exercise of their office have actually taught heresy and condemned as heretical what has afterwards turned out to be true. The chief instances usually appealed to are those of Popes Liberius, Honorius, and Vigilius in the early centuries, and the Galileo affair at the beginning of the seventeenth century.

Pope Liberius
Liberius, it is alleged, subscribed an Arian or Semi-Arian creed drawn up by the Council of Sirmium and anathematized St. Athanasius, the great champion of Nicaea, as a heretic.
But even if this were an accurate statement of historical fact, it is a very inadequate statement. The all-important circumstance should be added that the pope so acted under pressure of a very cruel coercion, which at once deprives his action of any claim to be considered ex cathedra, and that he himself, as soon as he had recovered his liberty, made amends for the moral weakness he had been guilty of. This is a quite satisfactory answer to the objection, but it ought to be added that there is no evidence whatever that Liberius ever anathematized St. Athanasius expressly as a heretic, and that it remains a moot point which of three or four Sirmian creeds he subscribed, two of which contained no positive assertion of heretical doctrine and were defective merely for the negative reason that they failed to insist on the full definition of Nicaea.

Pope Honorius
The charge against Pope Honorius is a double one: that, when appealed to in the Monothelite controversy, he actually taught the Monothelite heresy in his two letters to Sergius; and that he was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, the decrees of which were approved by Leo II.
But in the first place it is quite clear from the tone and terms of these letters that, so far from intending to give any final, or ex cathedra, decision on the doctrinal question at issue, Honorius merely tried to allay the rising bitterness of the controversy by securing silence. In the next place, taking the letters as they stand, the very most that can be clearly and incontrovertibly deduced from them is, that Honorius was not a profound or acute theologian, and that he allowed himself to be confused and misled by the wily Sergius as to what the issue really was and too readily accepted the latter’s misrepresentation of his opponents’ position, to the effect that the assertion of two wills in Christ meant two contrary or discordant wills. Finally, in reference to the condemnation of Honorius as a heretic, it is to be remembered that there is no ecumenical sentence affirming the fact either that Honorius’s letters to Sergius contain heresy, or that they were intended to define the question with which they deal. The sentence passed by the fathers of the council has ecumenical value only in so far as it was approved by Leo II; but, in approving the condemnation of Honorius, his successor adds the very important qualification that he is condemned, not for the doctrinal reason that he taught heresy, but on the moral ground that he was wanting in the vigilance expected from him in his Apostolic office and thereby allowed a heresy to make headway which he should have crushed in its beginnings.

Pope Vigilius
There is still less reason for trying to found an objection to papal infallibility on the wavering conduct of Pope Vigilius in connection with the controversy of the Three Chapters; and it is all the more needless to delay upon this instance as most modern opponents of the papal claims no longer appeal to it.

Galileo
As to the Galileo affair, it is quite enough to point out the fact that the condemnation of the heliocentric theory was the work of a fallible tribunal. The pope cannot delegate the exercise of his infallible authority to the Roman Congregations, and whatever issues formally in the name of any of these, even when approved and confirmed in the ordinary official way by the pope, does not pretend to be ex cathedra and infallible.
The pope, of course, can convert doctrinal decisions of the Holy Office, which are not in themselves infallible, into ex cathedra papal pronouncements, but in doing so he must comply with the conditions already explained — which neither Paul V nor Urban VIII did in the Galileo case.
Conclusion

The broad fact, therefore, remains certain that no ex cathedra definition of any pope has ever been shown to be erroneous.

As one continuing to study Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, such articles push me farther from Catholicism. I truly wish that were not the case. Perhaps Catholics can shed some light on this article.

Anna
 
Hesychios,

I’m concerned about this too–the lack of evidence for a “Papal universal jurisdiction” in the early Church. Catholics keep repeating the Scriptures regarding Peter/Rock/Keys; but these Scriptures do not prove the Catholic position of primacy and authority over all of Christendom. The need to discuss this is not intended to offend Catholics in any way. It is a serious issue for any of us considering Catholicism.

Anna
Is unity possible without hiearchy, or with competing hierarchies?

Did Jesus intend to create a Church that is unified in Truth?

I believe these questions resolved the issue for me.
 
Is unity possible without hiearchy, or with competing hierarchies?
The example of the Eastern Orthodox would seem to say yes. They have a hierarchy but not one concentrated in one supreme cleric.
Did Jesus intend to create a Church that is unified in Truth?
Of course – there is only one truth.
 
The example of the Eastern Orthodox would seem to say yes. They have a hierarchy but not one concentrated in one supreme cleric.

Of course – there is only one truth.
The EO is an example of a competing hierarchy that came out of the Catholic Church.

Because it is built on the apostolic model, it has maintained doctrines and practices that were passed on by the early Church.

Still, it is an example of the fracture that occurs when one separates from the unity of Peter. The EO patriarchs were once part of the Catholic Church and they acknowledged the primacy of Peter’s successors. Today they don’t honor this primacy in any way.
 
Dear brother Gurney,
I find it fascinating, upon reading Quia quorundam that John XXII actually seems to say right off the bat that the doctrine of irreformable doctrine actually comes from the “Father of Lies” himself. Wow. franciscan-archive.org/bullarium/qquor-e.html

Anyone want to weigh in on this?
I don’t see anywhere that says the doctrine of irreformible doctrine comes from the Father of Lies. Perhaps I missed it. Could you quote it directly?

All I’ve seen is the statement that the Father of Lies has blinded the eyes of men so that they have refused to accept two apostolic constitutions promulgated by Pope John XXII.

Here’s the context of the matter. A prior Pope had granted approval of the Franciscan Rule which included the evangelical rule of poverty. Pope John XXII wanted to relax the Rule, and certain Franciscans opposed that. The argument they used was "That which the Roman Pontiffs had defined by [means of] the key of knowledge, in faith and morals, once for all, persists unchangeable to such an extent, that it is not lawful for a successor to call it again into doubt, nor to affirm the contrary.

The Pope responded that it is wrong for them to use this principle, not because the principle is wrong, but because the Franciscan Rule does not fall in that category upon which that principle (infalliblity) can be applied.

That’s all. No big deal (though polemicists like to pretend it means something).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I think that’s an unfair characterization of Eastern Orthodox Christian leadership. If you read books like “The Primacy of Peter,” men like Meyendorff and Schlemann are very very quick to give the Bishop of Rome the primacy of honor they believe he deserves as first among equals and the Chair of Peter. What they’re not prepared to give him is an infallible, universal jurisdiction and supremacy over all Christendom and all bishops. It’s all in how one understands primacy. If you are hoping for a universally supreme in jurisdiction infallible, last word on everything pontiff who controls the Church all over the world, you’re correct, they’re not willing to give him that type of primacy.
The EO patriarchs were once part of the Catholic Church and they acknowledged the primacy of Peter’s successors. Today they don’t honor this primacy in any way.
 
I think that’s an unfair characterization of Eastern Orthodox Christian leadership. If you read books like “The Primacy of Peter,” men like Meyendorff and Schlemann are very very quick to give the Bishop of Rome the primacy of honor they believe he deserves as first among equals and the Chair of Peter. What they’re not prepared to give him is an infallible, universal jurisdiction and supremacy over all Christendom and all bishops. It’s all in how one understands primacy. If you are hoping for a universally supreme in jurisdiction infallible, last word on everything pontiff who controls the Church all over the world, you’re correct, they’re not willing to give him that type of primacy.
You might be right. My comment was based on responses from Orthodox members of message boards! That being the case, when I have directly challenged them to provide examples of the Orthodox honoring the primacy of the successor of Peter, the response I have received is that this is no longer necessary because the Bishop of Rome is currently invalid.

Let me ask you, since you seem to be familiar with Orthodox views in this matter:

How does the Orthodox Church honor the primacy of the successor of Peter?

If it is nothing more than lip service, does it really have any validity?
 
Dear sister Anna,
Hesychios,

I’m concerned about this too–the lack of evidence for a “Papal universal jurisdiction” in the early Church. Catholics keep repeating the Scriptures regarding Peter/Rock/Keys; but these Scriptures do not prove the Catholic position of primacy and authority over all of Christendom. The need to discuss this is not intended to offend Catholics in any way. It is a serious issue for any of us considering Catholicism.
The “papal universal jurisdiction” that is controversial does not exist. It only exists in the minds of -
  1. Catholics who uphold the Absolutist Petrine view who interpret Vatican 1 in that sense since they believe it defends the honor of the papacy, and
  2. Non-Catholics who uphold the Low Petrine view who likewise interpret Vatican 1 in that sense in order to oppose the papacy.
Neither the Absolutist nor Low Petrine position is patristic.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Nine_Two,
The reason Honorus works as an argument is that he attempted to press a theology that was later declared heretical at a council
Can you please explain what you mean when you say that Pope Honorius “attempted to press” his theology? You mean on the Church?

Blessings
 
Hi chesterton,

I appreciate the vote of confidence but I’m sure you know as much about Orthodoxy as yours truly. I’ve only read a few books. “Primacy of Peter” by Meyendorff is an outstanding book that I’ve read.

The answer I hear from Orthodox Christians goes something like this:

There were five patriarchates: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem; Rome walked away from the other four, not vice versa. When the Latin West walked away from the Church it is impossible to know whether or not the Bishop of Rome’s sacraments are valid because he is no longer part of the Church nor are the people under him. Likewise his theology is his own, not part of the Church anymore so that is also questionable. His primacy would be there if he returned home to the brotherhood of bishops that he left but in the meantime he is in schism.

That is my understanding of what Orthodox believe. Mind you, I’m not saying this is MY characterization of how I think, but how the EO feel.
You might be right. My comment was based on responses from Orthodox members of message boards! That being the case, when I have directly challenged them to provide examples of the Orthodox honoring the primacy of the successor of Peter, the response I have received is that this is no longer necessary because the Bishop of Rome is currently invalid.

Let me ask you, since you seem to be familiar with Orthodox views in this matter:

How does the Orthodox Church honor the primacy of the successor of Peter?

If it is nothing more than lip service, does it really have any validity?
 
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