Critics of Papal Infallibility: Can you name other examples of popes making fallible decisions apart from Honorius I?

  • Thread starter Thread starter gurneyhalleck1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I once heard on EWTN Radio (I recognize many Roman Catholics may not consider this a scholarly source, I only quote it as an example) that the only two times ex cathedra was used were with the Immaculate Conception and Bodily Assumption of Mary. It’s ironic because I consider both of those to be fallible declarations. 😛
With all due respect,but your consideration/opinions really do not hold any bearing at all. God is not concerned with our opinions,but only the Truth. Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons do not consider the Trinity as Biblical, do you think the church and God give a hoot about their considerations? What has been declared and made official doctrine will not change anything,especially agaisnt the scores of opinions throughout the ages.
 
From his point of view his opinion does matter; he’s not Catholic and doesn’t hold the same view of church polity and theology that you hold. This statement could be used in every single discussion we have at CAF all day long, day in day out. It’s “we can’t be wrong” basically which precludes any discussion anway. It’s unnecessary to say IMO. Orthodox and Anglicans, Protestants, etc. don’t share your views either yet don’t find it necessary to preclude discussion.
With all due respect,but your consideration/opinions really do not hold any bearing at all. God is not concerned with our opinions,but only the Truth. Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons do not consider the Trinity as Biblical, do you think the church and God give a hoot about their considerations? What has been declared and made official doctrine will not change anything,especially agaisnt the scores of opinions throughout the ages.
 
From his point of view his opinion does matter; he’s not Catholic and doesn’t hold the same view of church polity and theology that you hold. This statement could be used in every single discussion we have at CAF all day long, day in day out. It’s “we can’t be wrong” basically which precludes any discussion anway. It’s unnecessary to say IMO. Orthodox and Anglicans, Protestants, etc. don’t share your views either yet don’t find it necessary to preclude discussion.
Or in other words: where would an internet discussion board be without opinions?
 
Exactly my friend. Thanks! P.S. LOVE the Bruce Lee avatar! Huge fan myself. Enter the Dragon, total classic! I love Fists of Fury, too! 👍
Or in other words: where would an internet discussion board be without opinions?
 
From his point of view his opinion does matter; he’s not Catholic and doesn’t hold the same view of church polity and theology that you hold. This statement could be used in every single discussion we have at CAF all day long, day in day out. It’s “we can’t be wrong” basically which precludes any discussion anway. It’s unnecessary to say IMO. Orthodox and Anglicans, Protestants, etc. don’t share your views either yet don’t find it necessary to preclude discussion.
Greetings gurney!

I understand your position,but unfortunately, it is rather simple: take it or leave it. If one refuses to rejectt it,then that is fine with me,but it does not prove it is false. As I said, many rejected the Trinity from the outset,but that is not sufficient to change anything or will the church alter it in order to cater to those who hold a ‘dfferent’ theological perspective. The church did not cave-in to the Arians who still insisted on something different, the church stuck it to its guns.

Imagine if the church was so preoccupied with everyone’s ‘opinions’ about every doctrine ever declared and made official? The church would not get anywhere by being so concerned about every Joe and Jane’s views and opinions.

Either the church Christ founded is guided by the Holy Spirit or it is not?

BTW: I am not against anyone expressing their views-opinions,however, it will still not change any doctrine declared official, which is my point.
 
Hi chesterton,

I appreciate the vote of confidence but I’m sure you know as much about Orthodoxy as yours truly. I’ve only read a few books. “Primacy of Peter” by Meyendorff is an outstanding book that I’ve read.

The answer I hear from Orthodox Christians goes something like this:

There were five patriarchates: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem; Rome walked away from the other four, not vice versa. When the Latin West walked away from the Church it is impossible to know whether or not the Bishop of Rome’s sacraments are valid because he is no longer part of the Church nor are the people under him. Likewise his theology is his own, not part of the Church anymore so that is also questionable. His primacy would be there if he returned home to the brotherhood of bishops that he left but in the meantime he is in schism.

That is my understanding of what Orthodox believe. Mind you, I’m not saying this is MY characterization of how I think, but how the EO feel.
That is my understanding as well, which seems to me a clear rejection of the primacy of Peter and his successors.
 
Actually, it was Papal universal jurisdiction.

If I believed it, I would be able to accept Papal infallibility.

It goes like this:


  1. *]The church, the Body of Christ, has infallibility in some sense. (See Matt 28:6-20) I think most Christians can agree with that statement, even if they are not sure exactly how this ‘infallibility’ manifests. Orthodox certainly also have a concept of the infallibility of the church.
    *]If one man is responsible for everything in the church, from doorkeepers and groundskeepers to theologians and canons, it stands to reason that the infallibility of the church resides in that one man, at least in some sense.

    I have always accepted that proposition.

    The problem for me is that Papal universal jurisdiction is ahistoric. It isn’t found in the early church, not even in the medieval church, and I spent years trying to convince myself of it, I eventually had to accept the fact that it’s just not there. For a long time that realization was a shock and a disappointment.
  1. Hesychios,

    I’m concerned about this too–the lack of evidence for a “Papal universal jurisdiction” in the early Church. Catholics keep repeating the Scriptures regarding Peter/Rock/Keys; but these Scriptures do not prove the Catholic position of primacy and authority over all of Christendom. The need to discuss this is not intended to offend Catholics in any way. It is a serious issue for any of us considering Catholicism.

    Anna
    Is unity possible without hiearchy, or with competing hierarchies?

    Did Jesus intend to create a Church that is unified in Truth?

    I believe these questions resolved the issue for me.
    CHESTERTONRULES,

    Good to bump into you in a discussion again. It’s been awhile.

    I’m glad the issue is solved for you. I wish it were for me.

    Unity is indeed an issue; but unity was not the issue of the post you answered. The issue is a lack of evidence for a “Papal universal jurisdiction” in the early Church. Perhaps it exists and I just haven’t read the right books. So, I welcome any resources you want to offer.

    East and West view history very differently, especially when it comes to the “universal primacy” of the Bishop of Rome. Catholics claim the Pope always held this primacy. Some Orthodox authors claim the East was unaware of this “ecclesiological development” in the West, until it was too late to stop it.

    (Emphasis is mine.):
    (“The Primacy of Peter, Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church,” John Meyendorff, Editor, Chapter 3, St. Peter in Byzantine Theology, John Meyendorff, Page 77)
    "Historians have more than once described the disastrous effect of the Crusades upon the relations between Christians of the East and West. The mutual accusations turned into a real uprising of hatred after the capture of Constantinople by the Westerners in 1204. As is known, Innocent III began by solemnly protesting against the violence of the Crusaders, but finally he decided to profit from the given situation and to act in the same way in which his predecessors had acted in other eastern territories reconquered from the Moslems. He appointed a Latin Patriarch to Constantinople. This action appeared to the whole Christian East not only as a religious sanction of conquest, but as a sort of theological justification of aggression. The election of a Latin Emperor in Byzantium could still be interpreted as being in conformity with the laws of war, but by virtue of what right or custom was the Patriarch of the West appointing his own candidate, the Venetian Thomas Morosini to the See of St. John Chrysostom?

    In all the anti-Latin documents of that period we see mention of this so-called “right” of the Pope, a right of which the Eastern Church had no knowledge. All of a sudden the East became more fully aware of an ecclesiological development which had taken place in the West and which it was much too late to stop."

    And—the Catholic and Orthodox views of the very definition of “primacy” are different.

    (“The Primacy of Peter,” Chapter 2, Peter’s Primacy In The New Testament And The Early Tradition, Veselin Kesich, page 57)
    "For Karl Rahner, the post-resurrection experiences of Christ’s disciples are "strictly sui generis, and they belong to the very origin of the Church. No one can succeed to the unique status promised to the twelve (Lk 22:30). The apostles cannot hand over their places in a kingdom appointed to them, nor can Peter transfer his role as the rock of the first Church in Christ.

    Only the church as a whole succeeds to these apostolic privileges. The apostles’ successor is the apostolic church, which possesses the fullness of apostolic tradition and with which Christ identifies himself. (Acts 9:4). Every bishop in the apostolic church who occupies the place which Peter occupied at the eucharistic gathering, and who performs the pastoral duties which Peter performed, is the successor to the apostle.

    But no bishop can succeed to Peter’s unique place as a member of the twelve, as the first witness of the resurrection, and as the first head of the first assembly in Christ. Both the New Testament and the early history of the church are in full agreement on this point."

    I welcome your comments.

    Thanks,
    Anna
 
. . .what I’d like to discuss is the topic of other examples of popes making fallible decisions if papal infallibility is supposedly not true? . . . .
This Infallibility article from the Catholic Encyclopedia makes this claim, “The broad fact, therefore, remains certain that no ex cathedra definition of any pope has ever been shown to be erroneous.”

I think this is the only position the Catholic Church can take without causing the claim of infallibility to crumble. And to that end, the article seems to suggest that when a Pope acts “under pressure of a very cruel coercion” or a Pope is not a “profound or acute theologian” and allows “himself to be confused and misled” by some “wily” person, his actions don’t count.

(Emphasis is mine throughout.)
Infallibility

Objections alleged

The only noteworthy objections against papal infallibility, as distinct from the infallibility of the Church at large, are based on certain historical instances in which it is alleged that certain popes in the ex cathedra exercise of their office have actually taught heresy and condemned as heretical what has afterwards turned out to be true. The chief instances usually appealed to are those of Popes Liberius, Honorius, and Vigilius in the early centuries, and the Galileo affair at the beginning of the seventeenth century.

Pope Liberius
Liberius, it is alleged, subscribed an Arian or Semi-Arian creed drawn up by the Council of Sirmium and anathematized St. Athanasius, the great champion of Nicaea, as a heretic.
But even if this were an accurate statement of historical fact, it is a very inadequate statement. The all-important circumstance should be added that the pope so acted under pressure of a very cruel coercion, which at once deprives his action of any claim to be considered ex cathedra, and that he himself, as soon as he had recovered his liberty, made amends for the moral weakness he had been guilty of. This is a quite satisfactory answer to the objection, but it ought to be added that there is no evidence whatever that Liberius ever anathematized St. Athanasius expressly as a heretic, and that it remains a moot point which of three or four Sirmian creeds he subscribed, two of which contained no positive assertion of heretical doctrine and were defective merely for the negative reason that they failed to insist on the full definition of Nicaea.

Pope Honorius
The charge against Pope Honorius is a double one: that, when appealed to in the Monothelite controversy, he actually taught the Monothelite heresy in his two letters to Sergius; and that he was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, the decrees of which were approved by Leo II.
But in the first place it is quite clear from the tone and terms of these letters that, so far from intending to give any final, or ex cathedra, decision on the doctrinal question at issue, Honorius merely tried to allay the rising bitterness of the controversy by securing silence. In the next place, taking the letters as they stand, the very most that can be clearly and incontrovertibly deduced from them is, that Honorius was not a profound or acute theologian, and that he allowed himself to be confused and misled by the wily Sergius as to what the issue really was and too readily accepted the latter’s misrepresentation of his opponents’ position, to the effect that the assertion of two wills in Christ meant two contrary or discordant wills. Finally, in reference to the condemnation of Honorius as a heretic, it is to be remembered that there is no ecumenical sentence affirming the fact either that Honorius’s letters to Sergius contain heresy, or that they were intended to define the question with which they deal. The sentence passed by the fathers of the council has ecumenical value only in so far as it was approved by Leo II; but, in approving the condemnation of Honorius, his successor adds the very important qualification that he is condemned, not for the doctrinal reason that he taught heresy, but on the moral ground that he was wanting in the vigilance expected from him in his Apostolic office and thereby allowed a heresy to make headway which he should have crushed in its beginnings.

Pope Vigilius
There is still less reason for trying to found an objection to papal infallibility on the wavering conduct of Pope Vigilius in connection with the controversy of the Three Chapters; and it is all the more needless to delay upon this instance as most modern opponents of the papal claims no longer appeal to it.

Galileo
As to the Galileo affair, it is quite enough to point out the fact that the condemnation of the heliocentric theory was the work of a fallible tribunal. The pope cannot delegate the exercise of his infallible authority to the Roman Congregations, and whatever issues formally in the name of any of these, even when approved and confirmed in the ordinary official way by the pope, does not pretend to be ex cathedra and infallible.
The pope, of course, can convert doctrinal decisions of the Holy Office, which are not in themselves infallible, into ex cathedra papal pronouncements, but in doing so he must comply with the conditions already explained — which neither Paul V nor Urban VIII did in the Galileo case.
Conclusion

The broad fact, therefore, remains certain that no ex cathedra definition of any pope has ever been shown to be erroneous.
Link: newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

As one continuing to study Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, such articles push me farther from Catholicism. I truly wish that were not the case. Perhaps Catholics can shed some light on this article.

Anna
 
This Infallibility article from the Catholic Encyclopedia makes this claim, “The broad fact, therefore, remains certain that no ex cathedra definition of any pope has ever been shown to be erroneous.”

I think this is the only position the Catholic Church can take without causing the claim of infallibility to crumble. And to that end, the article seems to suggest that when a Pope acts “under pressure of a very cruel coercion” or a Pope is not a “profound or acute theologian” and allows “himself to be confused and misled” by some “wily” person, his actions don’t count.

(Emphasis is mine throughout.)
Infallibility

Objections alleged

The only noteworthy objections against papal infallibility, as distinct from the infallibility of the Church at large, are based on certain historical instances in which it is alleged that certain popes in the ex cathedra exercise of their office have actually taught heresy and condemned as heretical what has afterwards turned out to be true. The chief instances usually appealed to are those of Popes Liberius, Honorius, and Vigilius in the early centuries, and the Galileo affair at the beginning of the seventeenth century.

Pope Liberius
Liberius, it is alleged, subscribed an Arian or Semi-Arian creed drawn up by the Council of Sirmium and anathematized St. Athanasius, the great champion of Nicaea, as a heretic.
But even if this were an accurate statement of historical fact, it is a very inadequate statement. The all-important circumstance should be added that the pope so acted under pressure of a very cruel coercion, which at once deprives his action of any claim to be considered ex cathedra, and that he himself, as soon as he had recovered his liberty, made amends for the moral weakness he had been guilty of. This is a quite satisfactory answer to the objection, but it ought to be added that there is no evidence whatever that Liberius ever anathematized St. Athanasius expressly as a heretic, and that it remains a moot point which of three or four Sirmian creeds he subscribed, two of which contained no positive assertion of heretical doctrine and were defective merely for the negative reason that they failed to insist on the full definition of Nicaea.

Pope Honorius
The charge against Pope Honorius is a double one: that, when appealed to in the Monothelite controversy, he actually taught the Monothelite heresy in his two letters to Sergius; and that he was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, the decrees of which were approved by Leo II.
But in the first place it is quite clear from the tone and terms of these letters that, so far from intending to give any final, or ex cathedra, decision on the doctrinal question at issue, Honorius merely tried to allay the rising bitterness of the controversy by securing silence. In the next place, taking the letters as they stand, the very most that can be clearly and incontrovertibly deduced from them is, that Honorius was not a profound or acute theologian, and that he allowed himself to be confused and misled by the wily Sergius as to what the issue really was and too readily accepted the latter’s misrepresentation of his opponents’ position, to the effect that the assertion of two wills in Christ meant two contrary or discordant wills. Finally, in reference to the condemnation of Honorius as a heretic, it is to be remembered that there is no ecumenical sentence affirming the fact either that Honorius’s letters to Sergius contain heresy, or that they were intended to define the question with which they deal. The sentence passed by the fathers of the council has ecumenical value only in so far as it was approved by Leo II; but, in approving the condemnation of Honorius, his successor adds the very important qualification that he is condemned, not for the doctrinal reason that he taught heresy, but on the moral ground that he was wanting in the vigilance expected from him in his Apostolic office and thereby allowed a heresy to make headway which he should have crushed in its beginnings.

Pope Vigilius
There is still less reason for trying to found an objection to papal infallibility on the wavering conduct of Pope Vigilius in connection with the controversy of the Three Chapters; and it is all the more needless to delay upon this instance as most modern opponents of the papal claims no longer appeal to it.

Galileo
As to the Galileo affair, it is quite enough to point out the fact that the condemnation of the heliocentric theory was the work of a fallible tribunal. The pope cannot delegate the exercise of his infallible authority to the Roman Congregations, and whatever issues formally in the name of any of these, even when approved and confirmed in the ordinary official way by the pope, does not pretend to be ex cathedra and infallible.
The pope, of course, can convert doctrinal decisions of the Holy Office, which are not in themselves infallible, into ex cathedra papal pronouncements, but in doing so he must comply with the conditions already explained — which neither Paul V nor Urban VIII did in the Galileo case.
Conclusion

The broad fact, therefore, remains certain that no ex cathedra definition of any pope has ever been shown to be erroneous.
Link: newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

As one continuing to study Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, such articles push me farther from Catholicism. I truly wish that were not the case. Perhaps Catholics can shed some light on this article.

Anna
In essence he’s only infallible when he isn’t wrong.

I’m pretty sure I can claim that sort of infallibility as well.
 
The Pope is human and all humans are fallible, even in Scripture. Even if he is quided by the Holy Spirit how do we know he followed what the Holy Spirits guided him to. He could misinterperate what the Holy Spirit is telling him. Remember he is just a human.
 
And as a Catholic that should be your sentiment. Nothing wrong with it, Nicea. I’m merely saying, respectfully, that when debating, discussing, and analyzing issues apologetically with non-Catholics, “beause the pope said so” isn’t going to chime. You need to really make the case for the value of the teachings, the timeless truths of them, and the essential holiness of said doctrines on their own, preferably tied to Scripture if possible, and that plants the seed for a common ground. If a Catholic has the magisterium, a Protestant does not, the debate needs a common reference point. Scripture and the councils are good starting places.

I happen to think that the popes have often been the STRONGEST force against heresies and the papacy has played a key role in destroying many of them if not most.

Blessings to you…
Greetings gurney!

I understand your position,but unfortunately, it is rather simple: take it or leave it. If one refuses to rejectt it,then that is fine with me,but it does not prove it is false. As I said, many rejected the Trinity from the outset,but that is not sufficient to change anything or will the church alter it in order to cater to those who hold a ‘dfferent’ theological perspective. The church did not cave-in to the Arians who still insisted on something different, the church stuck it to its guns.

Imagine if the church was so preoccupied with everyone’s ‘opinions’ about every doctrine ever declared and made official? The church would not get anywhere by being so concerned about every Joe and Jane’s views and opinions.

Either the church Christ founded is guided by the Holy Spirit or it is not?

BTW: I am not against anyone expressing their views-opinions,however, it will still not change any doctrine declared official, which is my point.
 
Dear sister Anna,
(“The Primacy of Peter, Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church,” John Meyendorff, Editor, Chapter 3, St. Peter in Byzantine Theology, John Meyendorff, Page 77)
"Historians have more than once described the disastrous effect of the Crusades upon the relations between Christians of the East and West. The mutual accusations turned into a real uprising of hatred after the capture of Constantinople by the Westerners in 1204. As is known, Innocent III began by solemnly protesting against the violence of the Crusaders, but finally he decided to profit from the given situation and to act in the same way in which his predecessors had acted in other eastern territories reconquered from the Moslems. He appointed a Latin Patriarch to Constantinople. This action appeared to the whole Christian East not only as a religious sanction of conquest, but as a sort of theological justification of aggression. The election of a Latin Emperor in Byzantium could still be interpreted as being in conformity with the laws of war, but by virtue of what right or custom was the Patriarch of the West appointing his own candidate, the Venetian Thomas Morosini to the See of St. John Chrysostom?
Why do EO scholars have to twist the facts? Pope Innocent III did not appoint Thomas Morosini. What actually happened was that the Latin Venetian clergy elected Thomas Morosini, without the knowledge of the Pope, and the Pope later confirmed him after his anger at the Crusaders had died down a bit. Father Meyendorff knows full well the difference between an appointment and an election, but presenting the case as a “confirmation” would not satisfy his agenda of painting the papacy as a monarchical dictatorship.

In all the anti-Latin documents of that period we see mention of this so-called “right” of the Pope, a right of which the Eastern Church had no knowledge. All of a sudden the East became more fully aware of an ecclesiological development which had taken place in the West and which it was much too late to stop."

Since Fr. Meyendorff has to twist the facts in order to support his conclusion, this necessarily throws the intergrity of his conclusions into doubt.
And—the Catholic and Orthodox views of the very definition of “primacy” are different.
High Petrine advocates on both sides can come to a consensus. It is the Absolutist and Low Petrine camps who are constantly at odds with each other.

(“The Primacy of Peter,” Chapter 2, Peter’s Primacy In The New Testament And The Early Tradition, Veselin Kesich, page 57)
"For Karl Rahner, the post-resurrection experiences of Christ’s disciples are "strictly sui generis, and they belong to the very origin of the Church. No one can succeed to the unique status promised to the twelve (Lk 22:30). The apostles cannot hand over their places in a kingdom appointed to them, nor can Peter transfer his role as the rock of the first Church in Christ.

Only the church as a whole succeeds to these apostolic privileges. The apostles’ successor is the apostolic church, which possesses the fullness of apostolic tradition and with which Christ identifies himself. (Acts 9:4). Every bishop in the apostolic church who occupies the place which Peter occupied at the eucharistic gathering, and who performs the pastoral duties which Peter performed, is the successor to the apostle.

But no bishop can succeed to Peter’s unique place as a member of the twelve, as the first witness of the resurrection, and as the first head of the first assembly in Christ. Both the New Testament and the early history of the church are in full agreement on this point."

Sister Anna, I’m sure you are familiar with this rhetoric. It is the identical to the one Protestants use against the principle of Apostolic Succession itself. They claim that the prerogatives of the Apostles were given only to the Apostles, and ended with the last Apostle. This argment against the papacy is just a mitigated form. I hope you can see the senselessness of the argument. Namely, all the charisms of the Apostles were handed down in the Apostolic Succession for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. Christ gave the office of confirming the Faith of the brethren to Peter among the Apostles. Christ did this because He knew in His divine wisdom that the Apostles themselves would need a head for the confirmation of their Faith. Unless anyone has the gall to believe that the Church today is better than the Church of the Apostles, unless anyone has the gall to believe the bishops today are better than the Apostles themselves, then who can believe that the office of confirming the brethren was not passed down as well?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear sister Anna,
This Infallibility article from the Catholic Encyclopedia makes this claim, “The broad fact, therefore, remains certain that no ex cathedra definition of any pope has ever been shown to be erroneous.”

I think this is the only position the Catholic Church can take without causing the claim of infallibility to crumble. And to that end, the article seems to suggest that when a Pope acts “under pressure of a very cruel coercion”
Why does this bother you? This is one of the most basic axioms of free will. So you actually believe that actions under duress have legal or moral value?
or a Pope is not a “profound or acute theologian”
It seems to me the article was only mentioning that as a bit of background, not as an excuse. The real reason Pope Honorius fails as an argument against papal infallibility is because he was not intending to give a definitive teaching to the Church.
and allows “himself to be confused and misled” by some “wily” person, his actions don’t count.
Again, that’s a very basic axiom of free will. Someone who makes a decision based on someone’s lie is not a free act. Again, can you explain why this would bother you as far as considering papal infallibility?

As far as Galileo is concerned, it is true that the Pope cannot delegate infallibility because it is not his to give, only God’s. But the normal apologetic I have heard regarding Galileo is that infallibility does not extend to the sciences. Infallibility only applies to what is in the Sacred Deposit of Faith - on doctrine of Faith and morals. The Church has no authority to add to the Sacred Deposit – she can only explain it, clarify it and defend it.

I hope that helps.

Also, it might be worthwhile to read this thread on papal infalliblity in the Eastern Catholicism Forum: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=494568. Perhaps you would like to contribute to the thread as well.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top