Sorry gurney. I misquoted the quote. It belongs to Gabriel.
From a secular point of view, you are right that a stand in does not negate being co-equal. If I go to the clinic and my regular doc is not there, I can be seen by another doc.
Yes, but Peter was given the responsibility to teach the WHOLE gospel. This responsibility to feed the sheep was passed on to his successor, and he to his up until the present day. The Gospel is “all that Jesus began to do and to teach”, some of which was not written down. For many modern American Evangelicals “the Gospel” is reduced to a very abbreviated version of how to get “saved”. But for Peter and the other Apostles, it meant teaching people how to live in this world, and how to be prepared to join Christ in the next.
Part of tending the sheep is protecting them from harm. Harm comes in the form of heresies and other sins. I can’t understand who you think is “lording” anything over the flock.
Yes, of course! But what you are saying is that the shepherd Jesus appointed does not have the authority to carry out the task God gave him
From an official diocean website:
That’s pretty evangelical sounding.
He didn’t say what about Protestants? I said I couldn’t remember so I wasn’t going to write what he said about Protestants, only that “defective” was a preferable thing to be called.
It is the duty of the bishops to hold, preserve, and teach the Divine Deposit of faith. It is available to all, and is easily found free online in the Catholic Catechism.
There is no “secret” in Catholicism. The full gospel of truth is available to anyone who wants it. It is not available to persons like yourself who have already made up their mind it does not exist.
It has been answered for you many times Schaick, you just don’t like the answer. Or, perhaps you don’t like doing your homework?
Great! I am happy to sit corrected. Thank you for this.
Yes. It is a testimony to the solidarity of Orthodoxy that the Faith survived all this, as Gurney has pointed out.
Maybe they should send some to the Phillipines?
I am sorry but I believe my paraphrased quotes of St. Augustine are universal ,not necessarily aimed at non-catholics .Where do you get that from ? In his Confessions,my quotes dealt partly with his conversion ,and the role the church and a preacher and the Word of God .What , is he a chamilion ,he says one thing about the bible to a heretic and another to someone unsaved ,and another to a fellow believer ?
You gave no evidence of this scripture being groundwork for Papacy in century 1 ,2 ,3 . I understand you argument that not much is said either way.Therefore it is pure assumption on your part to insist it was so and “just” never challenged etc. To be fair ,I can not assume the opposite either .However ,you miss my point of saying some of the earliest Fathers say Jesus is the Rock, with out the slightest mention of Peter, challenge or no challenge. You are right , without your teaching there would be no Catholic church , just the catholic universal church, as the only church mentioned in the first few centuries.
.You mention a city church at Chalcedon, but I mentioned a Council that was held there , with Rome present ,and having much of it’s agenda passed ,except for not being claimed supreme.So how could you say , or suggest ,the Council was bad ,full of heretics ? When did they become heretics -right there when they said Rome was equal but not supreme ? What heresy are you talking about ?.. My understanding is that Rome was so pagan that Constantine left for a better place to help Christainity flourish .He ordered 50 bibles to be made (Rome may have 2 of those originals).He helped many churches and clergy thruout the kingdom. What ,and Catholic Rome never received anything from a worldly power ? …Monasticism began several generations before Constantine in Egypt. It did eventually spread to Rome .Why did they leave Rome? Did they have hypocrisy also ? I do not recall Constantine wrecking Christianity or changing it or any dogma .Indeed he ,not any so-called pope called for the first council since Jerusalem ,for unity’s sake.
I am not sure of your historical context ,but monks definitely played a huge role in preservation centuries later. T
It was contested at that Council, to some Fathers chiding of Papal actions or decrees , to popes chiding later popes and decrees, to Luther , Calvin, to many on this site .Error has always been contested , by God’s grace and promise
Where is Wycliffe and Tyndale ? Where are the Albigenses of France ? But I agree , a church can lose it’s “candlestick” , as Jesus warns in Revelations. It just can’t happen to Roman Catholicism , as cited in ,well not in scripture but in tradition , Catholic tradition.I understand your position .Thank-you for being patient with me.
I think His presence at the wedding does give credence to it, just as His presence at the Feast of Lights gives credence to the book of Maccabees.
How can anything joined by God NOT convey grace?
You started this thread!!!When my Giants win another World Series game and are up 2-0 after spanking the heck out of Texas, I am in such a good mood that even I can sit here and watch this mind-numbing papacy debate go on and on into oblivion with resolute patience!
good to hear from you; In biblical times do not think of the Hebrews marrying as we do today. Sometimes they took on more than one wife because it was a custom for every maiden to have a husband, although a sexual marriage did not take place always. Jesus elevated marriage to a sacrament making it a covenant law to be married only once, just as Christ is the husband to His Church only one bride.
You started this thread!!!
Hi guanophoreI am glad to year that you have abandoned the garden of diversity.
This is a misrepresentation of the facts. I think you are recounting what some hostile Orthodox are saying, but it is not true.
The schism that happened in 1054 started many centuries earlier, when the Bishop of Rome was left with secular control when the empire fell. He was given the Roman title of “Pontiff”. The secular supremacy became conflated with spiritual. The greatest part of the schism did not have to do with the role of the Bishop of Rome as much as misunderstandings of language and culture.
No one is blaming anyone for being heretics, on either side. You have been given misinformation.
The Petrine gifts were given only to Peter, and he passed them to his successor. The duty to feed and care for the flock was specifically charged to him, and to him were given teh Keys, and the power to bind and loose. The successor of Peter has always been considered “first among equals” by all the Patriarchs (until 1054)
Maybe tommorrow tired, good night all and God bless.
I honestly dont’ know about you, Shaky. I am thinking there must be a community college nearby where you can take a class in writing.
I think that is a subject for another thread, unless of course, Gurney wants to go there, since it is his thread.