Critiquing the Liturgy

[mosher]

johnpaullover:

If a person becomes involved in a struggle for orthodoxy, which leads him to be picky about the mass, then he certainly is not celebrating properly. The mass will lose meaning. Why press the issue? Holding hands during the Pater Noster may be an abuse, but that does not excuse complaining about it to yourself.

You are correct to a point. In this case the fault is not with the person seeking orthodoxy but rather with those who have heterodox practices. The disorder never lies with the person that is in orthodoxy. Remember it is those in error that must be called to change not the other way around. However, I think that you make a very important point concerning complaining. It is improper to just complain to ones self but it is quite proper to complain to the proper authorities - it is the right of all the faithful to have right worship.

 

[InnocentIII]

MusicMan:

If your goal at Mass is to catch every sort of liturgical abuse, then you ARE being the self-appointed liturgy police, and have such criticism coming.

If your goal at Mass is to worship the Lord and the plethora of abuses that are occuring are preventing you from worshiping the Lord, then you’re NOT being the self-appointed liturgy police, and I have no beef with you raising an issue over abuses.

My real concern is that sometimes things occur that have a very good explanation. Some of us who live out in the small towns where we’re forced to share a priest with another or maybe two other towns are just lucky to have Mass said every Sunday, and we’re willing to overlook the occassional skipping of the Creed or the Gloria because Father is stretched so thin making sure that people can at least hear Mass in their own church and in their own town.

Palamas85 gave a pretty snide response to my post. What he’s missing is the immense sacrifice my priest is making to see that the needs of Catholics are met in two parishes in two separate towns. It is because of HIS sacrifice that both parishes still have Mass every Sunday and still have sacraments conveniently administered. My poor priest is being run ragged to try to meet the faith lives of two parishes.

It’s one thing to get upset over abuses due to laziness or innovation, but that’s not always the case. When I see an abuse in my parish because Father is just plain overworked, I don’t get upset with him. I fall on my knees and pray that God will help us increase vocations to the priesthood.

I have to comment here. It seems our priests get overworked pretty eaily these days. I live in a rural area. My priest covers four churches. Two get weekly masses and two get bi-weekly masses. Not bad by modern standards. But have you ever considered the priests of the yesteryear. The same parish had 6 churches averaging 30 miles from the centre and the priest had to go by horse and still he managed to get around them on a monthly basis. The excuse the priest gave is as someone else said “just a cop-out”. An extra 3 minutes at most to say the creed is neither here nor there. And the worst of it is that once you accept an excuse like that it makes it so much easier to accept the next abuse and the next abuse until there is no Mass left. Remember well the words of Pastor Niemoller … and then they came for me. To co-operate in an abuse is to condone the abuse. And just for the record I am not a liturgy cop. I have a very holy and orthodox priest but he is 74 and occasionally forgets things. I do not hold this against him or report it because i know it was not intentional. But likewise I do not believe we can be focused on Our Lord if we ignore the very way His mass is being celebrated.

 

[5-Decades-a-Day]

MusicMan:

My priest commits an abuse that really should be reported, but I will defend until the end of time. He is notorious about skipping the Creed. My priest is pastor of our church and the one in the next town over. He schedules the Masses close together for the convenience of the people attending, not for his own ease of travel. Often, he’ll skip the Creed at the early Mass to ensure he gets to his next church in time to begin Mass.

It’s beyond his power to schedule the second Mass to begin 15 minutes later than it does now?

 

[MusicMan]

Hmmm… my point has always been that there are different reasons why abuses occur. An abuse is an abuse, and it will never be right, but there are still different reasons why they occur. As those of us who are learned in the rubrics observe abuses, I think it is important for us to look at the cause of the abuse so that when we address it, it can be corrected.

I am never going to get my priest to stop skipping the Creed at the early Mass when he feels he needs to in order to make it to his next parish in time for their Mass. He’s never going to back everything up by 15 minutes to ensure everything starts on time, because then the people who attend the third Mass(this is Mass #2 at Church #1) of his day will complain because the Mass is too late in the morning. He should do it anyway just for his own well being, but he’s more concerned about making sacrifices of himself than demanding that the people sacrifice. I admire his selflessness.

I understand, and accept, however, that this makes the people at the early Mass sacrifice by not being able to make a Profession of Faith. All of us who go to the early Mass and realize this is an abuse accept it and understand that we’re making our own sacrifice for the greater good of the parish community. It also doesn’t happen every week… often no more than twice a month.

The solution to this abuse is really to have a pastor at the other parish. We don’t have enough priests in our diocese for that.

In my mind, instead of going nuts about this abuse, we need to focus on getting more men into the priesthood. This particular abuse will end in our area if we have more priests.

It’s a different situation than when the priest changes the language to be “inclusive” or does “innovations” or says the dreaded clown mass.

We should not EVER have to tolerate an abuse of the Mass, but we should be ever vigilant when we observe them to make sure we know why they happened before we address them. Proper address of the cause of abuses will solve the problem. The next time my priest skips the Creed, I’m going to pray for an increase in vocations to the priesthood. I’m going to pray for the Bishop to start a new class of deacons. I’m going to pray to God that this wonderful priest can get the manpower help he needs to minister to his flock without having to skip a part of the Mass.

I hope he skips it this Sunday. No, I don’t. Excuse me… I’m going to pray for those things NOW.

 

[mosher]

Music Man it seems that you are using poor moral reasoning in this case. Remember a evil can never be done to bring about a good. Damaging the liturgy is a moral evil and is sinful and there is no situation where it can be made right. An intrinsically evil act can never be good. We forget that abuses to the liturgy are not neutral acts but have a moral weight. The gravity can be determined another thread but viewing the precedence of the the Church on this issue something like omitting the Creed can even be on the level of a moral sin. It is a sin against obedience and it is a sin against religion and it is a sin of public scandal all wrapped into one action. For me, this is one of the most important reasons why right worship is necessary - the soul of the priest will reflect the manner in which he celebrates the liturgy.

 

[MusicMan]

I never said I liked what was happening or that I endorse it. All I’m saying is that when an abuse occurs, we must take time to understand why it has occured before we can take steps to correct it.

I am doing something about this abuse. Because I believe the problem is caused by a shortage of priests with too many parishes to say Mass at, I am praying for an increase in vocations to the Priesthood. I am praying for an increase in vocations of married men to the Permanent Married Diaconate in our diocese. This is what I can do about this abuse. Getting bent out of shape over it, complaining to Father, or going over his head to the Bishop isn’t going to solve the problem. If I complain to Rome, as we all know, Rome moves very slowly. It may be years before they would handle this – if at all. I am doing what I think is best to end this abuse in my parish. You may handle it differently if it occurs in your parish.

Now, if Father showed up in a clown suit and said the dreaded “clown” mass, I’d report him to the Office of the Bishop immediately.

 

[SFH]

johnpaullover:

Why dos everyone have to critisize th mass to make sure it is valid?
It is spiritual suicide! It is dumb!

I think it depends on whether it’s constructive criticism or destructive criticism. Few people can argue that the current English translation of the Novus Ordo needs to be redone to more accurately reflect the Latin.

Take, for example, the Gloria

Literal Translation
Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will. We praise you, we bless you, we worship you, we glorify you we give you thanks for your great glory. Lord God, heavenly King,
God the Father Almighty …

Current Translation
Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on earth
Lord God, heavenly King Almighty God and Father
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you
for your glory…

Or how about the words of consecration …

Literal Translation
In like manner, when the supper was done, taking this choice cup into his holy and venerable hands, again giving thanks to you, he blessed it and gave it his disciples, saying …

Current Translation
When supper was ended he took the cup. Again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples and said …

I realize some people are used to the current English translation, but it’s only been around about 30 years and it really isn’t a very good translation of the official Latin text as the two examples above demonstrate (and those are only a couple of examples). The current English translation omits a number of lines contained in the Latin and it adds in words that aren’t even there.

If one of my students were to turn in the current English translation of the Latin Mass to me, I’d give them a failing grade. I think it’s a valid criticism to want the English translation to more accurately reflect the official Latin text.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

MusicMan:

I am doing something about this abuse. Because I believe the problem is caused by a shortage of priests with too many parishes to say Mass at, I am praying for an increase in vocations to the Priesthood. I am praying for an increase in vocations of married men to the Permanent Married Diaconate in our diocese. This is what I can do about this abuse. Getting bent out of shape over it, complaining to Father, or going over his head to the Bishop isn’t going to solve the problem. If I complain to Rome, as we all know, Rome moves very slowly. It may be years before they would handle this – if at all. I am doing what I think is best to end this abuse in my parish. You may handle it differently if it occurs in your parish.

I think your posts to this point have reflected a certain ambivalence toward the abuse as you originally stated “My priest commits an abuse that really should be reported, but I will defend until the end of time. …Is this an abuse? Yes. Should it be reported? Absolutely. Am I going to? NO WAY. I know why he’s doing it, and my prayers are not that the bishop will make him correct this abuse, but rather we will have an increase for vocations to the priesthood so that my pastor only has to be pastor of one church.”

So you acknowledge not only that it is an abuse, but also that it should be reported, only to also say you will NOT report it, do not pray that it will end, and “will defend it until the end of time.” That’s some confused reasoning. I was also going to point out your ends justifies the means, but mosher beat me to it. The bottom line is that if one recognizes an abuse that needs to be reported, one needs to report it. Especially when it could be so easily corrected by an addition of 5 min. somewhere in the schedule.

 

[mosher]

Andreas Hofer:

I think your posts to this point have reflected a certain ambivalence toward the abuse as you originally stated “My priest commits an abuse that really should be reported, but I will defend until the end of time. …Is this an abuse? Yes. Should it be reported? Absolutely. Am I going to? NO WAY. I know why he’s doing it, and my prayers are not that the bishop will make him correct this abuse, but rather we will have an increase for vocations to the priesthood so that my pastor only has to be pastor of one church.”

So you acknowledge not only that it is an abuse, but also that it should be reported, only to also say you will NOT report it, do not pray that it will end, and “will defend it until the end of time.” That’s some confused reasoning. I was also going to point out your ends justifies the means, but mosher beat me to it. The bottom line is that if one recognizes an abuse that needs to be reported, one needs to report it. Especially when it could be so easily corrected by an addition of 5 min. somewhere in the schedule.

Also, since it is Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation that the Creed is being omitted then he should just shorten his homily, stick to the standard prayers of the faithful and omit hymns. All of these are licit “time savers.”

 

[Fast_ed75]

johnpaullover:

Why dos everyone have to critisize th mass to make sure it is valid?
It is spiritual suicide! It is dumb!

Liturgical abuse is shoved past the lips, over the tongue, down the throat, and into the stomach of a faithful Catholic!

I’ve heard priests use all manner of different verbiage during the consecration.
I’ve seen “Eucharistic Ministers” receive communion “concelebration style”

I’ve seen liturgical dancing.
I’ve seen OBVIOUS invalid matter and profane vessels for the Eucharistic specie.
When I was going to the novus ordo 3 or 4 times a week, I once witnessed the same priest, three days in a row, skip the lavabo. (that’s not one of those ‘oh my goodness, i just forgot it!’… not three days in a row)

…on and on and on.

So… when the laity CLEARLY WITNESSES LITURGICAL ABUSE they are scandalized.
http://www.stjosephsmen.com/letters/images/clowns_small.jpg