Cross with corpus?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JP2phile
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JP2phile

Guest
The 2003 GIRM states:

(308.) “There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.”

At our parish we have a large figure of the resurrected Christ (~12 feet high) hanging on the wall behind the main altar. Our processional cross also has an image of the resurrected Christ. It was brought up to our parish priest (through the Worship Commission) that the GIRM states (as above) that there should be a representation of the crucified Christ present. The priest has considered the request, but states there is no plan to add a crucified Christ in place of the resurrected Christ on our processional cross (cost not being the issue).
Question: Am I being too nit-picky or should the parishoners really push harder to see a crucified Christ on the altar?

Thanks for your opinions!
 
I’m hoping you meant “above the altar” or “near the altar” rather than “on” it. There should never be anything “on” the Altar, except during Mass. 😉

Aside from that, if you have notified your priest of the documents, and have politely made the request to have your parish conform with the discipline of the Church, and he still doesn’t see the need, then you have done your duty.

Offer the rest up to God, and be glad you have a priest who isn’t swayed into breaking his principles (even incorrect ones) on the say-so of a parishioner. 🙂

It might be worth mentioning it to the Bishop, but I imagine that the Bishop already knows, and has pastoral reasons for not disciplining the priest (or has tried, and has met with no results - you can never tell with these things. It’s not like you can fire a priest.)
 
Thanks JM-- that was along the line I was thinking too. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut!
 
JP2phile said:
The 2003 GIRM states:

(308.) “There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.”

At our parish we have a large figure of the resurrected Christ (~12 feet high) hanging on the wall behind the main altar. Our processional cross also has an image of the resurrected Christ. It was brought up to our parish priest (through the Worship Commission) that the GIRM states (as above) that there should be a representation of the crucified Christ present. The priest has considered the request, but states there is no plan to add a crucified Christ in place of the resurrected Christ on our processional cross (cost not being the issue). Question: Am I being too nit-picky or should the parishoners really push harder to see a crucified Christ on the altar?

Thanks for your opinions!
Click to expand...
If the priest knows that a proper crucifix is to be used and does not plan to correct the situation—he is putting himself above the Church. Your next step is to contact the bishop.
 
Pax vobiscum!

jmcrae, EWTN has a crucifix on the altar. Candles are on the altar in most churches (except the ones that have them to each side), too.

In Christ,
Rand
 
If your priest will not willingly comply,
why not go to Leaflet Missal or some other company, and purchase a 12" high bronze crucifix and present it to your priest as a gift for the ALTAR ??
One would hope that he would graciously accept it and USE it.
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)
 
JP2phile said:
The 2003 GIRM states:

(308.) “There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.”

At our parish we have a large figure of the resurrected Christ (~12 feet high) hanging on the wall behind the main altar. Our processional cross also has an image of the resurrected Christ. It was brought up to our parish priest (through the Worship Commission) that the GIRM states (as above) that there should be a representation of the crucified Christ present. The priest has considered the request, but states there is no plan to add a crucified Christ in place of the resurrected Christ on our processional cross (cost not being the issue).
Question: Am I being too nit-picky or should the parishoners really push harder to see a crucified Christ on the altar?

Thanks for your opinions!
Click to expand...
I share in your concern and also in the abuse you mentioned. We have a stain glass representation of the Cross of Christ crucified upon it. Behind the altar, the resurrected Christ hangs. Our processional cross is within the norm, very beautiful if I might add, but is place out of the way, next to the American flag during Mass. If you notice EWTN has a Crucified Christ on the altar and I might add, on both sides of the cross you will find our Lord. The cross is one of the things which may be on the altar at all times. Yes those in charge no of the requirements but will not change. Our Bishop has celebrated Mass numerous times so he is not willing to correct or institute a change
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Pax vobiscum!

jmcrae, EWTN has a crucifix on the altar. Candles are on the altar in most churches (except the ones that have them to each side), too.
Click to expand...
Hopefully the crucifix at EWTN is actually behind the Altar, but only appears to be on it because of the angle of the camera.

If it is actually on the Altar, then they are breaking Church law. EWTN is an excellent TV station, but there is nothing to say that they are the perfect model to follow. We follow the Church’s guidance; we don’t look to something on television (even if in most respects it’s excellent television) as our guide.

Candles should be on tall candle stands to either side of the Altar, but they should not be on the Altar. There should be absolutely nothing on the Altar outside of Mass. If they can’t afford proper candle stands, then they could use side tables, or something like that. (One parish I’ve seen uses tastefully decorated IKEA tables set up on either side of the Altar to put the candles on - they are covered in white linen cloth so you can’t tell what they are - and they blend in quite well with the Altar, so from a distance, I suppose they appear to be on it.)
 
I think a fair point is being made: the GIRM requires on the cross a “figure of Christ crucified” not just a “figure of Christ”.

The Latin text of GIRM 308 has “effigie Christi crucifixi” (From Missale Romanum, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2002, ISBN: 8820972719, page 70.)

In writing to the bishop photos of the crosses may be helpful.
 
jmcrae said:
Are you the Pope?

Near, yes but not “on” it, according to current church law.
Click to expand...
Until you substantiate your assertion you’re not going to be very believable. Was Cdl. Ratzinger advocating disobedience in The Spirit of the Liturgy when he promoted the idea of having a crucifix standing on the altar between priest and people? The books state that nothing is to be on the altar that is not required for Mass, but a crucifix and candles are indeed required for licit celebration.
 
jmcrae said:
I’m hoping you meant “above the altar” or “near the altar” rather than “on” it. There should never be anything “on” the Altar, except during Mass. 😉

Aside from that, if you have notified your priest of the documents, and have politely made the request to have your parish conform with the discipline of the Church, and he still doesn’t see the need, then you have done your duty.

Offer the rest up to God, and be glad you have a priest who isn’t swayed into breaking his principles (even incorrect ones) on the say-so of a parishioner. 🙂

It might be worth mentioning it to the Bishop, but I imagine that the Bishop already knows, and has pastoral reasons for not disciplining the priest (or has tried, and has met with no results - you can never tell with these things. It’s not like you can fire a priest.)
Click to expand...
A smaller crucifix can in fact be on the altar during Mass. I believe it can remain along with the candles outside of Mass.
 
jmcrae said:
…if you have notified your priest of the documents, and have politely made the request to have your parish conform with the discipline of the Church, and he still doesn’t see the need, then you have done your duty.

Offer the rest up to God, and be glad you have a priest who isn’t swayed into breaking his principles (even incorrect ones) on the say-so of a parishioner. 🙂
Click to expand...
If a police officer were illegally searching homes and detaining individuals for no reason, would you have “done your duty” by politely asking him to stop and meekly acquiescing when your pathetically unenforceable reference to the law didn’t sway his opinion? By refusing to celebrate the sacraments in accordance with the law the priest is violating the rights of every single Catholic present.

That priest needs to be taught to reform his principles on the say-so of the legislation to which his promise of obedience binds him. Pastors don’t need to make changes just because parishoners want them, but they sure do need to make changes when someone points out to them that they are in clear violation of the law, whether that someone happens to be the ordinary or just a silly little parishoner. I would make sure the bishop knows, and if he doesn’t act, keep moving up the chain. If the top of the chain decides not to act, it is his decision; but until the top has been reached there is a responsibility to defend the rights of the affected Catholics (oneself included).
 
jmcrae said:
Are you the Pope?

Near, yes but not “on” it, according to current church law.
Click to expand...
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal in No. 308 requires the use of a "cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it. It does not state, or require, that it be removed after Mass, Concerning EWTN, it is on the altar at all times, between two sets of candles; three candles each.

Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite, paragraph 64, by Peter J. Elliott: The cross should be located on, next to, immediately behind or suspended above the altar…In contest of the Roman liturgy, “cross” means a crucifix". Again, no reference to remove it after the completion of Mass.

Please provide your reference.
 
jmcrae said:
Candles should be on tall candle stands to either side of the Altar, but they should not be on the Altar.
Click to expand...
Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite, paragraph 66: Partial quote; The Roman Rite envisages an uneven number of candles on the altar…even seven if a Bishop celebrates…

General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 117: …**on or next **to the altar are to be placed candlesticks with lighted candles: at least two in any celebration, or even four or six, especially for a Sunday Mass or a Holy Day of obligation. If a diocesan Bishop celebrates, then seven candles should be used.
 
jmcrae said:
There should be absolutely nothing on the Altar outside of Mass.
Click to expand...
jmcrae,

I join in with the previous posters who request a source for your assertion, as I am a bit confused about what you mean.

What about altar covers? Altar cloths?
A monstrance during exposition of the Blessed Sacrament?

Thank you for your help in clearing this up,
VC
 
jmcrae said:
Hopefully the crucifix at EWTN is actually behind the Altar, but only appears to be on it because of the angle of the camera.

If it is actually on the Altar, then they are breaking Church law. EWTN is an excellent TV station, but there is nothing to say that they are the perfect model to follow. We follow the Church’s guidance; we don’t look to something on television (even if in most respects it’s excellent television) as our guide.

Candles should be on tall candle stands to either side of the Altar, but they should not be on the Altar. There should be absolutely nothing on the Altar outside of Mass. If they can’t afford proper candle stands, then they could use side tables, or something like that. (One parish I’ve seen uses tastefully decorated IKEA tables set up on either side of the Altar to put the candles on - they are covered in white linen cloth so you can’t tell what they are - and they blend in quite well with the Altar, so from a distance, I suppose they appear to be on it.)
Click to expand...
Pax tecum!

That’s not true at all. Look at the way the TLM is celebrated–six big candles on the altar. There is nothing that says that candles cannot be on the altar. Also, there is nothing that says a small crucifix cannot be on the altar and, as others have cited, the GIRM specifically says that is one of the locations the crucifix can be during the Mass. What Church law are you talking about? :confused:

In Christ,
Rand
 
There is NO prohibition in church law against the cross and candles being ON the altar. I suggest Jmcrae take a good look at any number of Roman basilicas, where crosses and candles appear quite frequently ON the altar.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
Until you substantiate your assertion you’re not going to be very believable. Was Cdl. Ratzinger advocating disobedience in The Spirit of the Liturgy when he promoted the idea of having a crucifix standing on the altar between priest and people? The books state that nothing is to be on the altar that is not required for Mass, but a crucifix and candles are indeed required for licit celebration.
Click to expand...
If it’s “between the priest and the people,” then this would be during Mass, right?- either that, or he’s referring to the Crucifix that hangs from the baldaccino (and thus is above the altar, rather than on it, but still between the priest and the people) - not all churches have baldaccinos, though.

Outside of Mass, there should be nothing at all on the Altar.

During Mass, obviously everything required for saying Mass should be there.

How big of a crucifix are you talking about? A little one like for at home?

Any I’ve seen at Mass are at least eight feet tall - would you put a eight foot tall crucifix on the altar?

Ours hangs down from the baldaccino, so it’s “between the priest and the people” just as former Cardinal Ratzinger suggests.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top