Cross with corpus?

[Verbum_Caro]

Outside of Mass, there should be nothing at all on the Altar.

jmcrae,

You again make this assertion, but please provide a source for it.

Again, what about a monstrance during exposition of the Blessed Sacrament?

Thanks!
VC

 

[bear06]

The 2003 GIRM states:

(308.) “There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.”

At our parish we have a large figure of the resurrected Christ (~12 feet high) hanging on the wall behind the main altar. Our processional cross also has an image of the resurrected Christ. It was brought up to our parish priest (through the Worship Commission) that the GIRM states (as above) that there should be a representation of the crucified Christ present. The priest has considered the request, but states there is no plan to add a crucified Christ in place of the resurrected Christ on our processional cross (cost not being the issue).
Question: Am I being too nit-picky or should the parishoners really push harder to see a crucified Christ on the altar?

Thanks for your opinions!

No you’re not being to nit-picky. I’d be interested in finding out why the pastor is opposed to it.

jmcrae - It might be helpful if you provided a link or source for the teaching you are citing. When people talk of a crucifix on the altar, usually they are speaking of a smaller free standing one.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

If it’s “between the priest and the people,” then this would be during Mass, right?- either that, or he’s referring to the Crucifix that hangs from the baldaccino (and thus is above the altar, rather than on it, but still between the priest and the people) - not all churches have baldaccinos, though.

Outside of Mass, there should be nothing at all on the Altar.

During Mass, obviously everything required for saying Mass should be there.

How big of a crucifix are you talking about? A little one like for at home?

Any I’ve seen at Mass are at least eight feet tall - would you put a eight foot tall crucifix on the altar?

Ours hangs down from the baldaccino, so it’s “between the priest and the people” just as former Cardinal Ratzinger suggests.

His Eminence was thinking on the lines of a crucifix a few feet high (not 8 ft) standing on the altar. It doesn’t matter if it obstructs “the view,” of course (so beyond the ridiculous lack of proportion an 8 ft crucifix isn’t necessary ruled out), because the whole point of putting it there is an attempt at moderating the damage done by the ignoramuses who thought a view was necessary - the cross is placed there so both priest and people can look to Christ, not at each other.

I still take exception to your claim that nothing at all is to remain on the altar outside of Mass, though. The only time the altar is stripped is during the Triduum.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Pax tecum!

That’s not true at all. Look at the way the TLM is celebrated–six big candles on the altar. There is nothing that says that candles cannot be on the altar. Also, there is nothing that says a small crucifix cannot be on the altar and, as others have cited, the GIRM specifically says that is one of the locations the crucifix can be during the Mass. What Church law are you talking about?

In Christ,
Rand

While the TLM is a great source for pointing out how things are *traditionally *done, don’t make the mistake of assuming that everything done there is in conformance with the 1983 CIC and post-conciliar liturgical legislation. The TLM is celebrated by *indult, *after all. A simple example of things done there that are not allowed by current law is clerics vesting and acting as an order below their fullest station (e.g. priests acting as deacons).

 

[AlexV]

Jmcrae’s view is false and has no basis in the tradition or rubrics of the Roman Rite.

As noted, the altar is stripped during Holy Week. End of story.

 

[jmcrae]

Jmcrae’s view is false and has no basis in the tradition or rubrics of the Roman Rite.

Tell that to my Bishop - Bishop Fredrick Henry. He forbids the leaving of anything at all on the altar - at the end of Mass, everything has to be removed to the credence table, and after the Dismissal, it all goes back to the Sacristy.

Obviously if there is Exposition after Mass, then the Monstrance could go on the Altar during the period of Adoration (normally it goes in front of the Tabernacle, which is behind the Altar; I only know of one place where the Tabernacle would be on the Altar, and that’s a Latin Mass parish - they do things differently, as noted above).

There would be a Benediction at the end, though, and the Monstrance would never be left unattended during the period of Adoration.

Just curious - would you leave a crucifix on the altar with the Monstrance, or would you not have the Monstrance on the altar by itself, without anything to distract from it?

As noted, the altar is stripped during Holy Week. End of story.

The entire Sanctuary is stripped during Holy Week; not just the Altar by itself. At our parish, they even cover up the baldaccino.

 

[CRW]

Tell that to my Bishop - Bishop Fredrick Henry. He forbids the leaving of anything at all on the altar - at the end of Mass, everything has to be removed to the credence table, and after the Dismissal, it all goes back to the Sacristy.

Obviously if there is Exposition after Mass, then the Monstrance could go on the Altar during the period of Adoration (normally it goes in front of the Tabernacle, which is behind the Altar; I only know of one place where the Tabernacle would be on the Altar, and that’s a Latin Mass parish - they do things differently, as noted above).

There would be a Benediction at the end, though, and the Monstrance would never be left unattended during the period of Adoration.

Just curious - would you leave a crucifix on the altar with the Monstrance, or would you not have the Monstrance on the altar by itself, without anything to distract from it?

The entire Sanctuary is stripped during Holy Week; not just the Altar by itself. At our parish, they even cover up the baldaccino.

Obedience to your Bishops is commendable; however, that does not make it mandatory for all. Please just provide a church document as evidence to support your stance. No! One would not keep the crucifix on the altar during Adoration nor would one keep the Monstrance on the altar during Mass. BTW, some Churches do have bare altars and the Altar Servers prepare the altar before the preparation of the gifts. Not all churches function the same.

 

[CathMass]

If you watch a papal Mass, there are 4 candles on the high altar inside St. Peter’s Basilica during the papal Mass. In addition there is a crucifix on the altar at the side between the candles. So if the pope does this then it is acceptable. So EWTN can have the candles and crucifix on the altar.

By the way in a some photos I saw the high altar at St. Peter’s outside of Mass and they have a crucifix ,candles and even the statues of St. Peter and Paul standing on it. So if it is done on the Pope’s altar, then it seems acceptable to leave the altar cross and candles on the altar. However, putting statues on the altar of sacrifice may not be so acceptable. I think the Vatican only had those statues since they were part of the high altar at the time of the Tridentine Mass.

With regard to the risen Jesus, I think a processional cross should suffice for a crucifix for the altar, unless if there is a risen Jesus on the processional cross too.

 

[AlexV]

A local bishop doesn’t legislate for the whole world, and his view isn’t necessarily correct.

In this case, most of the major churches of Christendom don’t agree with Frederick Henry’s vision of church decor…which could be summed up as minimalist and bleak.

As for stripping the altar (a symbol of Christ), covering baldacchioes, etc., is not envisaged in the rubrics. The altar is Christ, and that’s why it gets stripped.

 

[jmcrae]

A local bishop doesn’t legislate for the whole world, and his view isn’t necessarily correct.

In this case, most of the major churches of Christendom don’t agree with Frederick Henry’s vision of church decor…which could be summed up as minimalist and bleak.

How so? The Altar isn’t the whole Church - besides which, it’s made from a single huge slab of Italian marble, and is very beautiful just on its own.

The rest of the Church can be crammed full of artwork and decorations - and in our case, it is - tastefully, of course, but just because you can’t pile stuff up on the Altar doesn’t mean you can’t have it elsewhere in the Church.

 

[AlexV]

Candles and cross on an altar do not necessarily = clutter or cramming of anything.

The clear import of your posts is that you think a minimalist approach to sanctuary decor is somehow better or more proper or more correct or more something than daring to put candles and a crucifix on the altar.

You’ve even posted that it’s what the pope wants, which is amazing, since the basilicas he celebrates in regularly have candles on the altar with the crucifix.

It is INDEED what some bishops have decreed for their territories. It is not a universal Roman Rite practice, it is, in fact, a minority view worldwide.

But it certainly isn’t “better” or “more correct” or anything similar.

Of course if you want to believe that Calgary is the center of liturgical perfection, and almost everyone else…including Rome…is somehow cluttered or crammed…oh well.

 

[palmas85]

I’m hoping you meant “above the altar” or “near the altar” rather than “on” it. There should never be anything “on” the Altar, except during Mass.

Aside from that, if you have notified your priest of the documents, and have politely made the request to have your parish conform with the discipline of the Church, and he still doesn’t see the need, then you have done your duty.

Offer the rest up to God, and be glad you have a priest who isn’t swayed into breaking his principles (even incorrect ones) on the say-so of a parishioner.

It might be worth mentioning it to the Bishop, but I imagine that the Bishop already knows, and has pastoral reasons for not disciplining the priest (or has tried, and has met with no results - you can never tell with these things. It’s not like you can fire a priest.)

What??? I’ve never seen anything anywhere declaring that candles and crucifixes have no place on an altar except during Mass. Please point me to some authoritative source on this.

Or is this just your personal preference to see only the bare table when you enter church.?

 

[jmcrae]

What??? I’ve never seen anything anywhere declaring that candles and crucifixes have no place on an altar except during Mass. Please point me to some authoritative source on this.

Or is this just your personal preference to see only the bare table when you enter church.?

Read the whole thread - I’ve already been raked over the coals several times, and it’s off topic, anyway.

I thought you guys were the “law and order” types - no inappropriate music, etc., so I figured it was common knowledge, and everybody would say “Oh yeah, that’s canon law number whatever” - anyway, apparently it’s only the discipline of our Diocese.

We have very richly appointed churches - a clear altar with lots of room for the Eucharistic Sacrifice to take place on it in no way equals a bare church - you know you’re in a Church when you walk in to ours; nobody would ever mistake it for a “gathering hall” or a Methodist meeting house, or a sports arena - dozens of stained glass windows (and no blank ones), hundreds of votive candles, icons everywhere, lush draperies, 8-foot crucifix hanging down in the Sanctuary, gorgeous baldaccino, solid marble floors and furnishings, and so on.

 

[CRW]

Read the whole thread - I’ve already been raked over the coals several times, and it’s off topic, anyway.

I thought you guys were the “law and order” types - no inappropriate music, etc., so I figured it was common knowledge, and everybody would say “Oh yeah, that’s canon law number whatever” - anyway, apparently it’s only the discipline of our Diocese.

We have very richly appointed churches - a clear altar with lots of room for the Eucharistic Sacrifice to take place on it in no way equals a bare church - you know you’re in a Church when you walk in to ours; nobody would ever mistake it for a “gathering hall” or a Methodist meeting house, or a sports arena - dozens of stained glass windows (and no blank ones), hundreds of votive candles, icons everywhere, lush draperies, 8-foot crucifix hanging down in the Sanctuary, gorgeous baldaccino, solid marble floors and furnishings, and so on.

You cannot provide Canon Law numbers or Instructions to the Roman Missal when they do not exist. Your statement and position, which you now admit, applies to your diocese, would have save a bunch of time and space had you stated that, many, many, post before.

BTW: Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite, paragraph 66: Partial quote; The Roman Rite envisages an uneven number of candles on the altar…even seven if a Bishop celebrates…

General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 117: …**on or next to the altar **are to be placed candlesticks with lighted candles: at least two in any celebration, or even four or six, especially for a Sunday Mass or a Holy Day of obligation. If a diocesan Bishop celebrates, then seven candles should be used.

This was posted before.

 

[AlexV]

Actually, since bishops aren’t allowed to ban practices allowed universally in the Roman Rite, a bishop couldn’t actually ban candles from altars.

 

[CRW]

Actually, since bishops aren’t allowed to ban practices allowed universally in the Roman Rite, a bishop couldn’t actually ban candles from altars.

I don’t know if he bans candles from the altar or requires that the candles and everything else, be removed from the altar after Mass. I would actually like to see the directed posted, what rubrics or instruction he is working with.