Crossdressing and sexual titillation

[dachsiemom2]

I had a good work friend who was married to someone who started cross dressing. She separated and after a year went back to him. He promised that he had changed and given up this behavior. After a short time he was doing it again and she found women’s clothing, lingerie, high heels, etc stashed in the basement and garage. Around this time he started forcing her into rough sex. Fortunately she was able to leave. As others have said, I would proceed with caution and get some counseling.

 

[Cherry5]

Thanks for all of your replies. It seems even in the devout Catholic community, there is still some grey area on this issue. I understand there is little/no specific reference to crossdressing in the bible, which was stated in my original post. I think more what I’m asking for, are resources about sexual purity, that mention the act of crossdressing, or really, “transvetism” within the realm of impurity. The dresses do not bother me so much. When we are married, as long as all of the other requirement for a chaste sexual relationship are adhered to, I have no problem with the occasional use of women’s clothes in our lovemaking. I myself suffer from sexual impurity, and currently I am engaged in prayer, confession, biblical study, and the like to attain the goal of chastity. He is a convert to Catholicism, but the constant (and sometimes petty) bitter disputes over major issues in the Church are still an obstacle for him. He says he is certain he made the right decision, though. He previously promised to get rid of the dresses and choose “God and dearest friend” over his desire for crossdressing, but (coming from a tradition without priestly confession, and the eroneous concept of "once saved, always saved) his failures since his initial promise are leading him back towards the attitude of “this is something I can’t change, its who I am” . He is rather shy, has difficulty seeking out new relationships, and is thus hindered in finding a better way to deal with the problem through accountability.(Not to mention, very few support groups address cross-dressers trying to overcome their strong urges, guilt, and depression when NOT dressing) He has been to confession about it. He does call me when he feels the urge to dress, or when he has stumbled and given into temptation, which I take as a very good sign. The dresses do not always lead to masturbation, and after the initial stimulation, he loses an erection naturally and enjoys the psychological comfort of wearing the clothes (which matters not to me, but he feels there is a difference.) I just want to try one more time, helping him understand this is a sexual purity issue, and sexual purity is essential to salvation. However, left unchecked, this “most harmless addiction” as the secular world describes it, can easily lead to gender dysmorphia, that he claims does not affect him right now. If soon he does not give indication that God is above his desire to cross-dressing, I will leave the relationship. I care for him deeply, and in the time of uncertainty, I think he is more open to the truth, if only he could be certain what that was. If you do not know of any reference material discussing sexual purity or overcoming the cross-dressing/transvetism desire, there is little need to reply to this post. I am aware of the many factors of this situation.

I think both of you are wonderful people God bless you, your honesty and prayfulness will I am sure lead you to the right answers. I feel confident from your last post that your partner is trying his best to deal with the situation of crossdressing, as you have noticed the sexual arousal will eventually go away as he gets used to crossdressing (this is what happens in most cases).
If we believe that God made us the way we are, and this is the way he was made, who are we to judge his crossdressing and deprive him of being the person he was made to be? in fact there are many many good qualities related to his femme nature that I am sure you have experienced and noticed.
Yes this does bother most, but as long as he is being honest, faithful to you, and his actions are acts of love I would not judge him. There is but one overriding commandment, love thy neighbor as thy self, everything else is just interpretation and subject to discussion.
Aboout 50% of crossdressing kids attempt suicide before the age of 20 yrs, primarily because of pressures that we impose on them, giving them a guilt complex and forcing them to be something they are not. Is this an act of love on our part?
I am not suggesting that you marry him out of pity for his crossdressing, marry him if you are confident that you can live with it, surely there needs to be boundaries for him as well.
With regards to gender dysphoria (crossdressing is not gender dysphoria), there is always a possibility that this could lead to it, but does not in majority of cases. A psychologist could perhaps help in this regard.

God Bless you both.

 

[OraLabora]

With regards to gender dysphoria (crossdressing is not gender dysphoria), there is always a possibility that this could lead to it, but does not in majority of cases. A psychologist could perhaps help in this regard.

God Bless you both.

That is true, but one thing to consider is when a young man realizes he has this tendency, and has little practical knowledge of the subject, there can be considerable confusion over gender identity, thinking that perhaps he has gender dysphoria.

This is where competent professional help is essential, to make that diagnosis, and reassure the patient if indeed he does not have gender dysphoria.

 

[centurionguard]

That is true, but one thing to consider is when a young man realizes he has this tendency, and has little practical knowledge of the subject, there can be considerable confusion over gender identity, thinking that perhaps he has gender dysphoria.

This is where competent professional help is essential, to make that diagnosis, and reassure the patient if indeed he does not have gender dysphoria.

I too was thinking that the OP’s fiancee needs psycho-therapy counseling.

True Love in Marriage is about Sacrificial Love not selfish sexual infatuation with oneself.

A Good Marriage is not just a sacramental contract between two person (“husband and Wife”), but a Sacred Covenant between Three. Too often Christ is never invited in the sacramental wedding and finds no room in the home. Why? Is it because we have misrepresented Christ and forgotten His joyful outlook on Life?

 

[OraLabora]

I too was thinking that the OP’s fiancee needs psycho-therapy counseling.

True Love in Marriage is about Sacrificial Love not selfish sexual infatuation with oneself.

A Good Marriage is not just a sacramental contract between two person (“husband and Wife”), but a Sacred Covenant between Three. Too often Christ is never invited in the sacramental wedding and finds no room in the home. Why? Is it because we have misrepresented Christ and forgotten His joyful outlook on Life?

It’s not that simple. The one case I know of, of a cross-dresser, was the result of sexual/emotional abuse and an unhealthy relationship with the mother that went back to the very beginning of childhood. His sexual identity was severely damaged by this.

We are human and our psyches are fragile and easily damaged especially by irresponsible parenting.

Christ is a path to healing but people who suffered grievously from abuse should never be made to feel “inadequate” because they can’t automatically switch their sexuality to conform to Church teaching.

It is one reason I get very angry at the simplistic answers many folks offer up here on human sexuality.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I think of the two gender dysphoria is in fact more worrying as it may degrade to transgenderism or transsexualism and that would inevitably be fatal to a marriage.

While I’m in complete agreement with most of what you say in your post, this bit is almost, but not quite, true. About 1 in 10-20 such marriages survive, though they may be celibate.

 

[OraLabora]

While I’m in complete agreement with most of what you say in your post, this bit is almost, but not quite, true. About 1 in 10-20 such marriages survive, though they may be celibate.

I have heard of some surviving. I imagine that this must be extremely stressful on a marriage though, I expect that a spouse who sticks with the transgendered person must be a have a very generous heart.

 

[Cherry5]

I have heard of some surviving. I imagine that this must be extremely stressful on a marriage though, I expect that a spouse who sticks with the transgendered person must be a have a very generous heart.

I agree it is very hard on the spouse, however with good counseling and support many can survive, crossdressing. Tri-Ess has had much success with this. It involves mutual respect and love for each others feelings and needs, setting of boundaries and frequent, honest discussions. This is too complex a subject to discuss here, however there are many misconceptions that when properly addressed makes it more palatable for the spouse, I know of a few spouses that do a wonderful job of assisting others in similar situations helping them to cope in the hope of saving marriages. I think they are truly doing Gods work by reaching out selflessly in love and acceptance. I have met several couples that have been able to come to some level of acceptance, the common factor being a deep love and respect for each other that has developed over the years and an underlying desire to make the marriage work.

I believe as Catholics we need to reach out to those yearning for love and acceptance with understanding and compassion rather than rebuking them and forcing them out of our community.

 

[centurionguard]

It’s not that simple. The one case I know of, of a cross-dresser, was the result of sexual/emotional abuse and an unhealthy relationship with the mother that went back to the very beginning of childhood. His sexual identity was severely damaged by this.

We are human and our psyches are fragile and easily damaged especially by irresponsible parenting.

Christ is a path to healing but people who suffered grievously from abuse should never be made to feel “inadequate” because they can’t automatically switch their sexuality to conform to Church teaching.

It is one reason I get very angry at the simplistic answers many folks offer up here on human sexuality.

…

It is one reason I get very angry at the simplistic answers many folks offer up here on human sexuality.

First of all I’m not sure how you can say what I said in my last post as being a simplistic answer:

**True Love in Marriage is about Sacrificial Love not selfish sexual infatuation with oneself.

A Good Marriage is not just a sacramental contract between two person (“husband and Wife”), but a Sacred Covenant between Three. Too often Christ is never invited in the sacramental wedding and finds no room in the home. Why? Is it because we have misrepresented Christ and forgotten His joyful outlook on Life?..**

**((“Here Is What Is Sexually Normal In Today’s Secular Society”)): Misconception of our sexuality can lead to doubts, guilt and shame and perpetuate mistaken views of normal and abnormal sexual behavior in oneself and others. Today, with extensive researches and more information available on the subject of sexuality, it is possible to define our sexuality on the basis of personal choices –perhaps to a greater degree in certain segments of the Western society than in some Oriental societies. Modern lifestyles and upscale urban living have led to a shedding of inhibitions and increased sexual freedom to explore various sexual behaviors. Though a penile-vaginal intercourse for procreation and recreation was generally believed to be the only “civilized” expression of sexuality for a very long time, masturbating alone, or in company, oral sex and anal sex among mutually consenting adults as expressions of love and for purposes of pleasure are now gaining acceptance as typical sexual behaviors in many societies all over the world.
Perversion: Universally, certain sexual behaviors are described as deviant, aberrant, abnormal or perverted. There is no denying that severe sexual maladjustment leads to conflict and misery, sometimes for the sexually deviant person, but most importantly for others. Psychologists use the term Paraphilia for deviant types of sexual expression such as Fetishism, Transvestic Fetishism (Cross Dressing) Sexual sadism, Sexual masochism, Autoerotic asphyxia, Exhibitionism, Voyeurism, Frotteurism, Zoophilia /bestiality, Necrophilia, and at the extreme end of the continuum—pedophilia, incest and rape. **

**Incidentally: this post about Cross-dressing has been rehashed before with some interesting moral insights. ("Cross-Dressing a Sin? forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=140646&page=5 **

 

[OraLabora]

…

First of all I’m not sure how you can say what I said in my last post as being a simplistic answer

Sorry wasn’t targeting you specifically.

 

[Faithx6]

God bless you, OP, for your love for your fiance & willingness to consider the opinions and thoughts of strangers about such an intimate matter so close to your heart. I strongly encourage you to prayerfullly reconsider whether God is calling you to be this man’s life partner.

A close relative has been married for 15 years to a devout Christian who disclosed a similar sexual disorder literally on the eve of their wedding. She decided to go through with the marriage, believing his assurances that he would control the disorder and it would not be a continuing problem in their marriage. In other words, she believed his assurances that their love would eradicate his deviant sexual desires/fetish and that their marriage would be sexually pure. It has been a continual struggle and he has “relapsed” during times of stress for him. His sexual deviency has damaging their intimacy and trust; only their children kept them together for a number of years.

It is very damaging to a woman’s spirit when, over a long period of time, she is in a position of feeling that she is constantly competing with something that she can never offer or be. A man can love his wife deeply, seek to serve Christ and still constantly struggle to find her the sole object of his sexual desire. Even when the man recognizes the sinfulness of his fetish (which it sounds like your fiance does not), it is a constant temptation and struggle to refrain from relapsing – particularly in this society which send so many messages that sexual fetishes such as cross-dressing are normal and harmless.

Are you willing to live with your fiance’s sexual fetish for the rest of your life knowing that he may only intermittently stay within the limits you two have set? Is this something you are willing to live with for the rest of your life, especially sinceyour fiance doesn’t appear to fully recognize and acknowledge how morally disordered his fetish is and how it impacts you? What will you do if he decides one day after your marriage that he actually wants to** become** a woman? Marriage is probably the single most important decision a woman will make in her life; be very certain you understand all the ramifications of your fiance’s sexual fetish and his attitude towards it before you decide to yoke yourself to him for life.

I have prayed for you today and will continue to do so. Seek God’s guidance through prayer & Holy Scripture; be assured that if you trust in the Lord with all your heart, He will trust direct your path. (Proverbs 3:5-6) You can still love and care for this man even if you decide that God is not calling you to be his spouse. You are not abandoning this man if you decide not to marry him. God be with you now and always.

 

[Ikeda_Kat]

Thanks again for the advice. We had another discussion today, and he was agreeable to some bible study. We went through Ephesians 5:22-5:33 and this quote in the catechism about fidelity:

St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.150

I was curious to know the difference in his emotional state on a normal day that he does not feel the desire and carries about his regular business in activities he enjoys (programming, cooking, playing guitar, etc) and days he chooses to dress while carrying on the same activities. After quite a long moment of thought he said he did feel an “excitement, pleasure of materials around his legs, the fantasy of being a pretty girl” on days he does not dress, he admitted that he still felt contentment, was able to fully engage in his hobbies without any thought about the dresses or the clothes he was wearing. He also states that he does not feel dissatisfied with his life at all, but would like to be a bit more outgoing.

After the study and the discussion about his emotional state with and without the dresses, I did present him with the notion that I want to strive for a spiritual ideal. That the salvation of our beloved is above our own life, and anything not dependent on salvation, including happiness derived from something other than the pursuit of God, should be abandoned if it causes us to be “of a different mind”

He made clear to me he understands my intention that I will do what I feel is best for his salvation, and only the desires associated with the development of virtue will be supported, and I expect the same from him.

In some of the stories that have been presented on this board, it seems the women involved did not receive the forewarning I have. I have known about his cross dressing for 5 years. Before we began dating. He has attempted to abstain many times, and eventually given in to the desire just as many times. So, I will no longer leave him to struggle alone. He has agreed, that if we do decide to continue with marriage, we will attend counseling with a Catholic psychologist. Not just for the cross dressing, but coming from a dysfunctional family, I have baggage myself that is possibly harmful to a marriage relationship.

Another assumption I made from the anecdotes presented, is that after the “promise to stop” was made, probably all discussion stopped as well until the husband could not stand it anymore. We have been in a continuous dialogue the past two years, and I promised my fiance we will continue the dialogue for as long as he feels the desire for dresses. I think a good sign, is there has been no acceleration. Many crossdressers talk (erroneously, I believe) about 'becoming closer to who I truly am inside" that was only ‘discovered’ by continuously pushing the limits. My fiance has not done that, in that, his desires do remain at a much more moderate level that has not changed in 5 years (but had experienced acceleration before that point)

So, he knows we might have these discussions regularly as long as we are married. I do feel concern that he may still after a period of time, desire to cross dress outside of the strict limits we agreed on earlier. Whether that is a chance worth taking or not, I am unsure. Another concern, is that I’m taking too much of a ‘lead’ in the relationship, and I would rather it be him. I don’t know if that will cause me disappointment or him resentment in the future. We haven’t put it to rest yet, but we are entering into a much more prayerful part of our engagement then previously. Again thank you for your advice and encouragement, if you have any information not already presented on this thread, feel free to share. Also, if you are inclined to offer prayers, they would be most helpful during this time of reflection. I am relieved to find such wonderful support from strangers. God bless you.

 

[Ikeda_Kat]

Dear Cherry5, thank you for your insight, but I find the advice somewhat counter to my desire to share a Catholic marriage with my fiance.

as you have noticed the sexual arousal will eventually go away as he gets used to cross dressing (this is what happens in most cases).

No, I said the erection goes away. A man can hardly keep an erection without release for an extended period of time without some strong medicine, so its not surprising. Psychological arousal is still present.

If we believe that God made us the way we are, and this is the way he was made, who are we to judge his cross dressing and deprive him of being the person he was made to be? in fact there are many many good qualities related to his femme nature that I am sure you have experienced and noticed.

“And he created them male and female” that’s what I know. He is a man, made in the image of the Lord, called to be a spiritual rock in marriage. He was not made a cross dresser by God. Although, one could say he was given his own cross. The fetish came from his relationship with the next door neighbor, who’s mother dressed her and him in little girls clothes and played ‘little girl’ games with them . Maybe he has a genetic bent to form a sexual fetish easier than others under the right circumstances, just as an alcoholic may have a genetic bent to be more prone to alcoholism. Does not mean either was made to be a person bound to addiction.
And his “femme nature”? you mean, that he is caring, attentive, respectful and loves me tenderly? That’s just a really great guy, cross-dressing not required. He still thinks “bad mood” means “PMS” and is visibly uncomfortable when I want to talk about ‘feelings’, would rather watch TV than choose decorations in the wedding planning, and isn’t much of a conversationalist.

There is but one overriding commandment, love thy neighbor as thy self, everything else is just interpretation and subject to discussion.

Actually, the most overriding commandment is the first one " You shall love the Lord Your GOD above all else" . And the rest, is in the Bible and Tradition of the Church, so we don’t have to live in doubt about our own “interpretation” on the majority of issues. We need to be humble enough to accept even the truth that we do not like. If only there was more discussion on the interpretation we have been given.

Aboout 50% of crossdressing kids attempt suicide before the age of 20 yrs, primarily because of pressures that we impose on them, giving them a guilt complex and forcing them to be something they are not. Is this an act of love on our part?

I wonder about the “%50”. Depends on the website you read, I guess. But I could find the same random number to describe suicides by drug users and Japanese business men. People have psychological issues that go beyond the normal loving relationships, we as Christians can ( and should) offer troubled people. We should seek to find them the counseling they need, not just offer a false “happiness” that is nothing more than the limited pleasure of indulging in ones desires apart from God.

I am not suggesting that you marry him out of pity for his cross dressing marry him if you are confident that you can live with it, surely there needs to be boundaries for him as well.

,

very wise words. Please pray for me that we can reach a Godly conclusion with this good advice.

 

[puzzleannie]

I When we first started dating, he was intentionally vague about the “struggle” in that I was led to believe he was trying to rid himself of the addiction. It came out much later after we became engaged that the “struggle” was that of being accepted for it, and finding a partner or situation to express it more freely. We have had many casual discussions and tearful arguments on the topic. I finally agreed that I could accept the
Kat

I have deliberately left the actual word out. what if the word was any other sexual expression you personally find repugnant. what of the word was some other addiction, such as to drugs or gambling. What if the word simply referred to some activity you do not want in your life: we are going to travel around the country in an RV going to NASCAR events, we are going to live on a farm in primitive 19th c conditions, we are going to move 1000 miles away from our families.

He concealed the issue from you for a long time, something that would have been a deal breaker before you got engaged.

you had to finally give in after many tearful arguments.

do you not see a harmful pattern here setting up for the rest of your marriage?

run don’t walk. addicts and people coping with disordered sexual desires are not convinced by bible passages. Like anyone else with a disorder they need to admit what they are doing is wrong, want to change for their own peace of mind, not because of outside pressure, and seek counselling to change.

(and I am aware NASCAR fans are not disordered, but it certainly raises issues in a marriage when one person builds their life around a hobby, work or avocation to the extent that the spouse has to accommodate that)

 

[Ikeda_Kat]

You are correct in that he was intentionally misleading. I am keeping that in consideration. However, some addicts do change. Few do it on there own without some strong force or reason. He has decided to change, but he is not as resolved about the definition of sexual purity as I have only recently come to embrace. So that discussion will continue, because I think it is the core of the problem.
How many addicts who don’t intend to change, are willing to call for support, knowing they will be advised against acting out their addiction? This gives me hope. However, I would ultimately prefer he had a strong male relationship that could give him the support he needs. I have asked him to consider reaching out to a peer. He said he will think about it, but the idea of telling a guy friend horrifies him (I think that’s understandable) Even if he falls after we are married, if he is seeking a marriage centered on God-and agrees that after failure, we will try different approaches-I don’t think it will be a waste. Of course, I am very emotionally bound to him right now, and I realize this may be clouding my judgment. I’m asking for your prayers.

 

[Cherry5]

No, I said the erection goes away. A man can hardly keep an erection without release for an extended period of time without some strong medicine, so its not surprising. Psychological arousal is still present.

I meant that usually the sexual arousal by wearing womens’s attire goes away.

“And he created them male and female” that’s what I know. He is a man, made in the image of the Lord, called to be a spiritual rock in marriage. He was not made a cross dresser by God. Although, one could say he was given his own cross. The fetish came from his relationship with the next door neighbor, who’s mother dressed her and him in little girls clothes and played ‘little girl’ games with them . Maybe he has a genetic bent to form a sexual fetish easier than others under the right circumstances, just as an alcoholic may have a genetic bent to be more prone to alcoholism. Does not mean either was made to be a person bound to addiction.

I disagree with this but respect your opinion.

And his “femme nature”? you mean, that he is caring, attentive, respectful and loves me tenderly? That’s just a really great guy, cross-dressing not required. He still thinks “bad mood” means “PMS” and is visibly uncomfortable when I want to talk about ‘feelings’, would rather watch TV than choose decorations in the wedding planning, and isn’t much of a conversationalist.

It is well accepted that everyone has a male and female attributes, I was merely suggesting that most crossdressers present more female attributes than normal males. your description confirms it - sorry if I have upset you by this comment.

Actually, the most overriding commandment is the first one " You shall love the Lord Your GOD above all else" . And the rest, is in the Bible and Tradition of the Church, so we don’t have to live in doubt about our own “interpretation” on the majority of issues. We need to be humble enough to accept even the truth that we do not like. If only there was more discussion on the interpretation we have been given.

I stand corrected on this but Love thy neighbor as thy self is the next

I wonder about the “%50”. Depends on the website you read, I guess. But I could find the same random number to describe suicides by drug users and Japanese business men. People have psychological issues that go beyond the normal loving relationships, we as Christians can ( and should) offer troubled people. We should seek to find them the counseling they need, not just offer a false “happiness” that is nothing more than the limited pleasure of indulging in ones desires apart from God.

Strictly from a crossdressing perspective I disagree with the last part of your comment, but that is just my opinion.

very wise words. Please pray for me that we can reach a Godly conclusion with this good advice.

I am happy to remember you both in my prayers.

God Bless

 

[Faithx6]

No more advice. I just wanted to give you further assurance of the continued prayers on your behalf. I brought both you and your fiance before the Lord this morning and I am certain many others have done so as well. The Lord is faithful and strong; He will keep you safe under the refuge of His wings (Ps 61) He will give you the wisdom that you need. (Jas 1:5) While we don’t know precisely how prayer works, we do know that it does! (Jas 5:16)

.

 

[OraLabora]

He was not made a cross dresser by God. Although, one could say he was given his own cross. The fetish came from his relationship with the next door neighbor, who’s mother dressed her and him in little girls clothes and played ‘little girl’ games with them .

This is a classic means of becoming a cross-dresser.

It is not his fault. It was done to him at a time when sexual identity is being established, and the neighbor damaged that. What the neighbor did was a form of sexual/emotional abuse, although she may not have realized it.

It is very sad, many of us have to carry the crosses of such abuse. The one case I know of is very similar, only it was the child’s mother.

 

[system]

Hi Ikeda
I think I first ran across your post a little over a week ago. Actually was not even a member of this forum at that time. Since then I have prayed for you, your fiance and also prayed about wether or not to respond here. I have come back and forth to this web site and find it very very insightfull and have looked for other posts having to do with the subject, as I am sure that you have also. This issue is so complicated! And can go in so many different directions. I don’t know where to start. I will hopefully come back soon and try to share but at this point I am drawing a blank.
I want to thank you for loving this man and trying to understand because what he is dealing with is so lonely. He is very lucky to have someone like you in his life.

God Bless You
CRHP

 

[Jermosh]

This is a serious issue that you need to address now. There is nothing wrong with fantasy or role-playing in general, its fine to be provocative with each other. You either need to accept it, find it attractive, or you need to walk away. There are many couples that do this, and both partners actually enjoy it.